Dwell angle
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Construction and other equipment
Forum Description: everything else with orange (or yellow) paint
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=145586
Printed Date: 22 May 2024 at 6:59am
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Topic: Dwell angle
Posted By: dreamrider01
Subject: Dwell angle
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2017 at 4:11pm
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Does anybody know the dwell on a acc30 PS forklift? Done with ignition rebuild, but missing dwell |
Replies:
Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2017 at 4:49pm
| 4 cyl? |
Posted By: Ferdinand
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2017 at 4:55pm
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This is for a 4 cylinder engine? 90 degree crank throws? If so, 45-47 degrees ought to work. Some sources 55-60 deg. I sure you would prefer an exact spec., though. ------------- Because narrow is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leads unto life, and few there be that find it. Mathew 7:14 |
Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2017 at 4:58pm
| 4 usually sit around 45, if a six I use to set between 32 and 35. |
Posted By: dreamrider01
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2017 at 8:58pm
| Thanx, guys. Yes, it is a 4-cylinder engine. It is CNG, though. Now, I am getting 31 deg dwell. Fires right up. I had a bit of rouble with idling, but solved after 1/4-turn on the throttle min bolt at the intake. New set of points gapped at 0.20, right in the middle of the 0.18-0.22 gap range I found somewhere online. No misfiring, no smoke (incomplete combustion). Am I missing something? BTW, how do you measure TDC in this thing? The engine pulley is under the weight. Can get to it and do the strobe TDC. Any tricks on how to strobe this baby? |
Posted By: Ferdinand
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2017 at 9:04pm
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If you can't see the timing marks or want to verify the timing marks, I use a TDC tool. Screws in place of the no. 1 spark plug. You can make your own tool from an old spark plug. Plenty of information online. You can make your own timing marks on the pulley in a convenient location if you like. Whereabouts in NC are you? ------------- Because narrow is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leads unto life, and few there be that find it. Mathew 7:14 |
Posted By: dreamrider01
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2017 at 9:07pm
| Hey Ferdinand. Raleigh. Forklift is at my warehouse in Durham. |
Posted By: dreamrider01
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2017 at 9:11pm
| I have a multitool reader that I bought new in... 1978? It gives me a variety of data, dwell, amps, volts, ponts. It doesn’t hook to the #1 cyl, though. Just battery +/- and distributor-side of ignitin coil. The tool that i have that hooks to the #1 cyl is the strobe. |
Posted By: Ferdinand
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2017 at 9:29pm
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1978, that's when they still made real tools. Not sure what you are asking though. The only practical way I know to measure TDC is by removing the no.1 spark plug and physically determining when the piston is up full travel. Once that is determined, you can put your own timing marks, verify the existing timing marks, or use a degree tape around the harmonic balancer, if it has one. I really don't know much at all about AC equipment. One of the reasons I joined this forum. by the way, I'm about 20 miles south of you. ------------- Because narrow is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leads unto life, and few there be that find it. Mathew 7:14 |
Posted By: dreamrider01
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2017 at 9:43pm
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You in Cary? Yes, that’s one way to do it. Then again, the prob is that I can’t put a mark anywhere that counts, or that I can see. Think of it this way; Pop the hood in your car. Look at the engine. You can see and reach everything on the front of the engine. OK, now wrap around the whole engine a 1.5 feet-deep, 1.5 ton iron weight. I can’t even see the crank shaft, and barely see about 4” of the water pump/fan pulley... from behind... In thinking about this there are two ways to go about it: 1) lift the tail end on my Allis with my Clark, and thank my lucky stars if the engineers at AC put the TDC mark at the bottom of the engine. ) Do as you say after lifting the Allis’ tail. Now, one would think that smart engineers would put a peep hole somewhere easy to see, and read somewhere around mid-engine. |
Posted By: Ian Beale
Date Posted: 19 Dec 2017 at 2:39am
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Can you see the back of the engine - i.e. front of the bell housing? Then might there be a port there (maybe with a cover) that gets you a look at a marker on the flywheel for timing? Like the timing port on an old Toyota 2F petrol Landcruiser |
Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 19 Dec 2017 at 4:10am
| put another condenser on it, the one you have may be bad. |
Posted By: Ferdinand
Date Posted: 19 Dec 2017 at 8:45am
Good idea. Old Farmall tractors had a small cover on the bellhousing. You flipped the cover open and the timing marks were on the flywheel. ------------- Because narrow is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leads unto life, and few there be that find it. Mathew 7:14 |
Ian Beale wrote:Posted By: dreamrider01
Date Posted: 19 Dec 2017 at 9:04am
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I will look for the peep hole. Yes, I replaced condensor, along with the rotor, points, dist cap, spark plugs, spark plug set of cables, air filter and igniton coil. Also, yes, it is a 4-point/90 deg distributor shaft. I am a bit bamboozled because it keeps idle fine, no misfiring, no smoke. I guess I could loosen the bolt at the base of the distributor and advance the ignition ‘til I get 45 deg dwell, adjust idle with the tiny bolt at the carburator/intake, and see what heppens. But wishing I had cler view of the TDC mark for my strobe. |
Posted By: Ferdinand
Date Posted: 19 Dec 2017 at 9:11am
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Adjusting distributor timing will not change Dwell. Changing dwell (point gap) will affect timing. ------------- Because narrow is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leads unto life, and few there be that find it. Mathew 7:14 |
Posted By: dreamrider01
Date Posted: 19 Dec 2017 at 11:33am
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I know. But, I am not sure what else to try; unless, of course, the gap range I found is incorrect. 0.18-0.22? Also, I measured the gap before taking off the old set of points, It was just a tad smaller, 0.18. I am not sure that 0.02 will make that much difference, particularly with a 14 degree difference in dwell. But will try it. Another possibility is that the distributor shaft is a bit worn, understandable after 56 years of use. It looks to be OE. |
Posted By: dreamrider01
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2017 at 10:16pm
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Well, what da dwell?!?! As it turns out... didn’t have my reading glasses on when I took the initial dwell reading, 31. That is the readig for a 6-cyl engine. Laughing at my old self... The correct reading for my 4-cyl was on the scale below, and it was 60 deg. Well, the reading is still way off compared to what other posters so kindly suggested, 45-55? So I increased the gap at the points from 0.20 to 0.22. Well, the dwell went to 65 degrees! Up instead of down?!. I re-gapped the points again to 0.18, the bottom of the range given. Dwell went back down to 61. I re-gapped once again to 0.20. Dwell went to 63. I think something might be wrong with my dwell angle reading tool? Isn’t it supposed to be that reduction in the gap = increase dwell, and viceversa? Regardless, the engine idles at 620 rpm, no misfiring, no smoke. So, I am leaving it alone at 0.20 gap, which is right in the middle of the 0.18-to-0.22 range I found. |
Posted By: DiyDave
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2017 at 4:58am
Pull the dist, check side play and the drive gear...
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Posted By: Ferdinand
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2017 at 9:05am
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yep, look at it this way, if the point gap was "zero" , you would have 360 degrees dwell. I agree with dave, on this. Pull the distributor. Sounds like to much shaft play. ------------- Because narrow is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leads unto life, and few there be that find it. Mathew 7:14 |
Posted By: dreamrider01
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2017 at 9:40am
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Again, thank you all for the valuable information. [:-)] Yes, when I manually turn the sharft, there is about 10-20 degrees play. A bit much. Then again, I am not sure about pulling the dsitributor shaft. There are practically no parts available for the forklift. |
Posted By: Ferdinand
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2017 at 11:29am
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Is the engine unique to AC? You might have to machine your own parts. I know of a machine shop near Durham, they do small, one-off jobs, reasonable cost. ------------- Because narrow is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leads unto life, and few there be that find it. Mathew 7:14 |
Posted By: dreamrider01
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2017 at 2:46pm
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I m not sure. I can’t find any manufacturer marking on it. The only thing is the firing order stamped on the valve cover. I can get it down to 61, which is one the rnges posted at the beginning of the thread, bu going with the 0.22 gap. The bigger problem the engine has is coolant leaking at the corners between the vlve cover and the block when I get the rpms up to 4K, and hold it there. The thing is that I never get it that high under normal circumstances. I think it is just a matter of a stuck thermo. At least that would be the easy solution (wishful thinking on my part, actually). Although, it probably needs a new gasket. The question is : where in the world will I find a thermo for this thing.... Have not taken it out. So, I am not sure of the diameter/temp requirement. |
Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2017 at 3:42pm
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You are going to have to get the side play out of that shaft, bushing the housing or having a shaft made. Should be a data plate somewhere on the engine, many were down by the starter. If not then comparison shopping is in order as many companies used Continental crate engines some used there own. A photo would do wonders on here, lots of minds. |
Posted By: dreamrider01
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2017 at 6:23pm
Thank you, DMiller. Let me try uploading some. I only have partials of the engine, as I worked on it over the last couple of days. |
Posted By: dreamrider01
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2017 at 6:24pm
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Posted By: dreamrider01
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2017 at 6:25pm
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Posted By: dreamrider01
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2017 at 6:30pm
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Oh, there is no side play on the shaft. It is rotational play; I can advance the cam to almost fully open the points with its tip with the ignition. Then, I advance the shaft by hand a tad (rotation-wise), and the tip of the shaft's cam gets right under where it is supposed to go to give me maximum points' gap. |
Posted By: dreamrider01
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2017 at 6:37pm
Here is one looking toward the back. Also, that is the alternator's top mounting bracket I had to fabricate, since OE was not anywhere to be bought. |
Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2017 at 7:37pm
| When you rotate the shaft does it try to return to initial position? That would be the mechanical advance mechanism, start low advance to gain advance as engine speeds up. If that is flopping the weights are no longer attached to the rotor stub sitting on the distributor shaft(two separate components). Should remove the rotor and take a photo of the internals of the distributor. Your dwell may just be the rotor head flopping loosely rotationally. |
Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2017 at 7:40pm
| Never mind, finally got moved over on the first photo. That style distributor first remove the points and condenser, there will be two or three retainer screws for the points plate to the dist. body. Remove that plate and then take a photo, will be obvious once is opened up. When you put the photo on your computer resize it to 1/4 of the existing size and save as an (A) behind the original number, then you have two photos but will fit better in here. |
Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2017 at 7:49pm
| Fairly certain that is a Continental L head, old standard for seemingly Forever for all towmotor/forklift makers. |
Posted By: dreamrider01
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2017 at 11:41am
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Again, thanx D. Will do. Also, I have an image of the top of distributor w/o points/condensor I can post meanwhile. Thanx for the tip on pic sizing. These are already 50% reduction. Will cut them down by 75% from this size. |
Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2017 at 12:46pm
| Should be centrifugal weights under the plate, attached with springs to the shaft, an ear on the weight engaging the movable rotor support and points cam. Springs, weights and all the engagement points need to be fairly snug fits, a little slop but not excessive and has to return to collapsed when stopped. |
Posted By: dreamrider01
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2017 at 8:40pm
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Couldnt get the plate off. Impossible to remove the old, rusty, tiny screws. Dont feel like drilling them out. BTW, I think I found the timing mark. Take rear grill off and get on your knees. One can see the bottom 1/4 of the crackcase pulley just past the bottom of the radiator. There is an aluminum bracket to the left of it. Arrow is stamped on it. |
Posted By: dreamrider01
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2017 at 8:51pm
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Engine: Flat-Head, 4-cyl Continental Red Seal. Red seal is stamped on the exhaust manifold. Did a google search. Ended in some G.I. BB, where the thread was about what kind f engine is a “Red Seal” engine. https://www.steelsoldiers.com/showthread.php?66985-Red-seal-engine" rel="nofollow - https://www.steelsoldiers.com/showthread.php?66985-Red-seal-engine |
Posted By: Ferdinand
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2017 at 8:53pm
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That's probably it. Don't know if you are still in a dilemma about the dwell setting. But I'll guess that looking at your vintage Dwell meter ; if you set the dwell slightly to the right of center scale (4 cyl) you will be very close to the right setting. How's that for precision? ha-ha ------------- Because narrow is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leads unto life, and few there be that find it. Mathew 7:14 |
Posted By: dreamrider01
Date Posted: 24 Dec 2017 at 12:58pm
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Ferdinand, yes, it is a vintage (circa 1978? Or perhaps older?) Sears/Craftman reader, part of the set I bought back then. A set because it came with a separate strobe gun. Dwell; I wish I could fix it, but gaping doesn’t. As DMiller suggested, take off plate, or work on the distributor shaft... Too much work, particularly without having an acurate factory spec for the dwell. Some say 45-50. Some say 60-65. As it is right now, I am at 61, within the range of one set of data. It starts at first crank, no smoke out the butt, no misfiring, plenty power. In fact, since I did a refurbishig of all ignition components, except ignigtion switch, but including some of the wiring, I can tilt, spread, and side-shift the forks with just idle. The later used to require some serious rpm’s to prevent stalling.. |
Posted By: dreamrider01
Date Posted: 24 Dec 2017 at 12:59pm
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Jackpot! Found the engine’s manual. http://manuals.chudov.com/Continental-Engines/Continental-L-Head-F-163-etc-Overhaul-Manual.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://manuals.chudov.com/Continental-Engines/Continental-L-Head-F-163-etc-Overhaul-Manual.pdf On the discussion about oil types, 4-cyls use 10W-30 |
Posted By: dreamrider01
Date Posted: 24 Dec 2017 at 1:56pm
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Points’ gap like I had it, 0.020 Here is a link to a PDF of the originl Winsconsin Engine o manual - http://www.wiengines.com/public/static/wm/images/catalogs/continental/TM_Operator_Repair_manual.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://www.wiengines.com/public/static/wm/images/catalogs/continental/TM_Operator_Repair_manual.pdf |
Posted By: dreamrider01
Date Posted: 24 Dec 2017 at 2:36pm
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Found the Dwell, Engine..100%.....55%..60%..65% 4-cyl........90......50.....54.....59 degrees |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 24 Dec 2017 at 5:30pm
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I'ts a flathead conti... the coil is probably original... the point cam lobes have been around the world several million times and you're running gaseous fuel... so... make sure the advance weights and mechanism move freely, set the gap so that it'll fire consistently... then adjust timing so that it runs well 'by ear'.... starts well, idles solid, and is controllable from idle to just-off-idle... and revs freely to governed limit. Then start it up, and let it idle for a good long time. If the coil gets really hot, then you'll have to worry about dwell. If not, smile and run the heck out of it. If it burns out, replace the coil with an internal-resistor-type coil from the farm store. The reason why 'dwell' was ever a concern, is because the ignition coil 'needs' a finite amount of time to build a magnetic field... and to make it do so rapidly in high-speed multi-cylinder engines, manufacturers used larger-gauge wire and fewer turns (higher coil-current), and then attempted to 'protect' the coil primary winding from burning up by limiting it's 'on time' duty cycle... aka 'dwell'. the advantage to doing it this way, was that the coil would fire very, very well with reduced system voltage... like... 4v in a 6v system, and 9v in a 12v system. Why would they do that? Well, because when the engine is CRANKING, the system voltage available to ignition is naturally kinda low. In '60's/'70's era cars and trucks, a resistor was used in series with ignition coils to intentionally LIMIT the amount of current through the coil when engine is running... to protect the coil from being burned up from full system (13.8-14.2ish)... but the resistor is bypassed during cranking to provide a nice, hot spark during cold start. Your gaseous fuel system really, really requires a hot spark... nature of the beast... but when they're set up right, they run forever, and clean as a whistle. If it continues to give you fits, I recommend you fit the engine with an electronic trigger ignition system... they generally all control coil duty cycle in such a way that the coil can run dramatically lower impedance primary windings, hence very high coil current for a very short time, and a very, very intense spark. I fitted my Hyster H50H with a Pertronix kit, and although it's the most gutless engine on the planet, it will nonetheless start under the worst conditions, and run solid at an idle speed about 20rpm slower than CRANKING speed... which when the engine and hydraulic oil is cold, that's a real bonus. ------------- Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest. |
Posted By: dreamrider01
Date Posted: 24 Dec 2017 at 5:52pm
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Thanx for all the valuable info, DK. Yes, I replaced the coil with same manufacturer’s equivalent. It seems to be doing fine. Again, no misfiring, no smoke from tail pipe/hole, good power. I think the dwell prob might be my fault. When I first replaced the condenser and points, I had to adjust the idle with the idle screw in the carb, so it wouldn’t stall. RPM’s are 650 now. They should be 550-600 for recco idle. Also, in the manual for the 4-cyl Continental I found (links posted above) it says to test ignition/points, etc at 440 RPM? Also, it mentions disconnectig a vacuum hose from the distributor, which mine doesn’t have. So, I will test the dwell again, but with coil wire off distributor, just crank the engine, so idle setting doesn’t play a role. Still gotta find the TDC peep hole the manual alng with others here say exists. The thing is that previous owner was like totally careless. So, there is about 2“-3” of well packed grease/oil/dirt/dust and who knows what else all over the engine. I have cleaned some around the top, where I have been working, with engine dgreaser, followed by brake cleaner. I find it interesting that some parts of the engine show the original AC yellow enamel paint. However, the bell housing is white enamel? Go figure. |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 24 Dec 2017 at 10:31pm
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Well, if it's running fine, and the coil isn't overheating, I'd just run the wheels off'a it and smile. Yeah, the paint thing is wierd... but the grease not-so-much. I have two forklifts, and have worked on many others, and the one thing that never ceases to amaze me, is how much grease and grime ends up in one... even if it's just running circles around the inside of a warehouse full of pallets of cardboard boxes. It's like Southern California raining on the only day you forget to close the sunroof... and able to find three dozen Phillips screwdrivers when you absolutely, positively need a standard... So I'll enlighten you to the basic truth I've reached: There are only two things in the world we can REALLY depend on: Gravity and Triangles. Cats not so much, but Gravity and Triangles. And I'll postulate that the key component of our earth's cohesive nature is Forklifts. See, Forklifts naturally attract dirt and grime, and in doing so, they magnify their own mass, hence gravity... and from this, we can, in confidence, deduce that all the soil of the earth is held in cohesion by the presence of large quantities of forklifts deep within the earth's core. And also realise that, since all cats have four legs... and all dogs have four legs... That all dogs are cats. Merry Christmas All!!!  ------------- Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest. |