B Oil Filter Experiment
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=128490
Printed Date: 17 Jul 2025 at 1:00pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.10 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: B Oil Filter Experiment
Posted By: CrestonM
Subject: B Oil Filter Experiment
Date Posted: 08 Sep 2016 at 11:14am
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I saw this and thought it was interesting. http://rodnh.byethost12.com/acb/filter/oilfilter.htm?i=1" rel="nofollow - http://rodnh.byethost12.com/acb/filter/oilfilter.htm?i=1
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Replies:
Posted By: AJ
Date Posted: 08 Sep 2016 at 11:56am
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Very interesting. ------------- Can't fix stupid |
Posted By: peterh
Date Posted: 08 Sep 2016 at 2:06pm
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I use the Fram C-159 in both of mine. never had any problems. Always remember to pour some clean oil into the filter and let it soak in before attaching it. ------------- 1947 C, 1949 B, 195? CA 60 series cultivator fertilizer side dresser 2 bottom snap coupler plow 1 bottom plow, Cole planter |
Posted By: Tcmtech
Date Posted: 08 Sep 2016 at 2:42pm
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SO which is better for the engine? The low surface area one that holds back more oil pressure or the high surface area one that lets more though but reduces engine oil pressure? And also why are their filter system not in series with the pump to keep any crud from getting to the load bearing rotating parts instead of a bypass to everything?  |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 08 Sep 2016 at 6:49pm
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Bypass filters were the standard before good filters were invented to handle the full flow of all the oil from the pump. Cleaning was a side effect of the bypass filter. Some of the pleated bypass filters have lowered the oil pressure on Allis engines enough to wreck the engines. The Fram C159 filter is safe for these engines, others are deadly. Gerald J. |
Posted By: Jack(Ky)
Date Posted: 08 Sep 2016 at 8:20pm
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These Wix/NAPA/Carquest filters with the rubber boot inside were made for a short time in the early 2000's. They caused the AC engines to lose oil pressure and were recalled at least 10 years ago. If someone trys to sell you one don't buy it. The new Wix # for the correct filter for the older AC is 57011 Napa 7011. We are a Wix distributor where I work and we got a case of those when they came out and when I tried one my pressure went down and I wouldn't sell any of them. You buy the Wix/NAPA filters with the new #s and they work just like the originals.JP ------------- '59 D14 '68 170 Diesel '81 7020 40 All Crop |
Posted By: LeonR2013
Date Posted: 08 Sep 2016 at 8:40pm
| Very nicely written and analyized. Sic) That took quite a bit of time and thanks for sharing. |
Posted By: Mrgoodwrench
Date Posted: 08 Sep 2016 at 9:03pm
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That's a nice experiment but why not just buy the factory filter for the $7 it costs ------------- There are 3 ways to do job GOOD, FAST, CHEAP. YOU MAY CHOOSE 2. If its FAST & CHEAP it won't be GOOD, if it's GOOD & CHEAP it won't be FAST, and if its GOOD & FAST it won't be CHEAP!!!! |
Posted By: Tcmtech
Date Posted: 08 Sep 2016 at 9:32pm
For many that's like asking them why they don't get the tires on their trailers balanced Which usually lead to this sort of reply. "Cripes. I just spent $1500 for 6 new tires you really think I'm gonna spend $12 more to have them balanced? Heck no! I'm gonna shake and then cuss about it everytime I use it for the next decade csu you just don't balance trailer tires." So do you really think that guy's gonna spend $7 for the right filter when he can get the wrong one that fits but doesn't work correctly for $5?  Just the thought of that would make my Grandpa role over in his grave if it wasn't for the fact he was cremated.
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Mrgoodwrench wrote:Posted By: MACK
Date Posted: 08 Sep 2016 at 9:45pm
| These old type filters never did much filtering. If a guy would plug the filter off and let the engine have all the oil, change oil more often, the engine might even run longer . MACK |
Posted By: Jack(Ky)
Date Posted: 08 Sep 2016 at 10:04pm
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Everybody don't have an Agco dealer down the street.JP ------------- '59 D14 '68 170 Diesel '81 7020 40 All Crop |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 08 Sep 2016 at 10:06pm
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there is no " factory OEM filter"..........AS Jack said, WIX tried to redesign the bypass filter about 10-15 years ago and it did not have enough back pressure and caused low oil pressure and resulted in several motor failures... You can buy the new WIX, NAPA, FRAM, Baldwin, or any other as long as it is a stuffed cotton design that is packed tight and you have the original 1/4 inch tube up the center. This design is made to bleed off 15% of the oil and filter it and dump back to sump. The other 85% of the oil goes to the motor and is sprayed on the bearings and gear train , cam, lifters, valves, etc.. A GOOD engine will maintain about 15 psi on the gauge... a worn engine may run down to 5-10 psi .... you start having trouble with oil feed if your running 5 psi. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: Tcmtech
Date Posted: 08 Sep 2016 at 11:09pm
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So why not just change the little orifice to a smaller one and let it do all the oil flow limiting? Seems like that would be a lot simpler than trying to find a filter with just the right back pressure.
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Posted By: CrestonM
Date Posted: 08 Sep 2016 at 11:23pm
| I say why not get a stiffer relief spring... |
Posted By: MACK
Date Posted: 09 Sep 2016 at 6:50am
| I dough the relief valve ever opens on these systems. MACK |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 09 Sep 2016 at 7:17am
------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 09 Sep 2016 at 7:32am
Imagine a garden hose with a Tee so you have 4 ends. Hook one to the hydrant, put your relief valve with your stiffer spring to the second end, and run the third end to the filter base. Your 4th is just for a pressure gauge. With the proper filter on the base, turn on the water and look at say 15 psi on the gauge. The relief valve was basically a safety deal so you don't blow out the oil filter can. Now, remove the filter and see what happens to the pressure at the gauge. Yes, it WILL go to 0 psi! That is exactly what happens with those WIX filters, no restriction in the filter makes for no pressure to the gauge. It don't matter if you plug the relief valve off completely, the fluid will go to easiest route, right thru the filter. If you went to AGCO in 2002, and paid extra for a filter, you most likely got a "new" junk WIX which was the cause of many engine overhauls that wouldn't have been needed with the proper restriction in the filter. Around 2002, I had our purchasing agent at my work order a filter from NAPA when he had a big order of things for the shop. Luckily I had read on this forum about the junk filters being sold. That filter got sent back. ------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 09 Sep 2016 at 7:36am
I don't know what you consider "factory" since AGCO was selling the JUNK Wix filters at the time! ------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: Tcmtech
Date Posted: 09 Sep 2016 at 9:59am
Oh sure, they'll answer your question. Now if you put a properly sized restrictor orifice on the connection between the aforementioned Tee that would choke off the flow to the filter your relief valve concept works just fine and solves the whole who's filter is the best one' debate being any filter of any size would now work and the system would run at whatever pressure the relief valve sets it at.  Yea I know, 'but, but, but... the stock orifice is ~1/16" dia and I don't have a smaller drill bit that that so I can't make a new one or solder/braze the old one shut and redrill smaller'. Oh well, it's a shame world has ever been able to mass manufacture a drill bit smaller than 1/16" huh? So doing an online search for such a drill bit the size of a needle, a 'needle drill bit' or 'micro drill bit' would be a fitting name such things if they existed, would be pointless?
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Posted By: DougS
Date Posted: 09 Sep 2016 at 10:14am
The bypass circuit was engineered to put a certain percent of oil through the filter. The size of the restrictor was engineered for a certain design of oil filter. Sure you can put a smaller restrictor on, but this is at the expense of how much oil you are filtering. A stiffer relief spring will do nothing. The relief should only come into play when the filter circuit is clogged. |
Posted By: Tcmtech
Date Posted: 09 Sep 2016 at 11:36am
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I look at it purely from an engineering stand point of X amount of restriction is needed which relates directly to Y amount of oil being able to flow through the circuit. Going by the numbers for standard orifice flow rate Vs pressure for common oils at 15 PSI ~ 1/2 a GPM flows through a 1/16" dia orifice. The problem I see is that with what 1/16" port open to free flow due to an unrestricted filter design the pump and engine side of the orifice pressure drops to ~7 PSI which means that the system only has about .25 GPM of flow rate it can dedicate to feeding filter circuit. To get that flow rate a second restriction beyond the 1/16" orifice (filter side) is required which by the numbers works out to being ~ .045" in dia which would be the equivalent orifice value the filter has to emulate to get that .25 or less GPM number so that the full 15 PSI pump pressure limited by the bypass valve and spring assy can be achieved. So given that just put in a .045" or slightly smaller dia orifice in place of the 1/16" (.0625") one and forget about the filter needing to supply any degree of restriction. End flow rate through the filter is the same, filtering is the same and the oil pressure stays up where it needs to be. That's how I see this based on rough flow rate Vs pressure numbers from here, http://www.efunda.com/formulae/fluids/calc_orifice_flowmeter.cfm#calc , and ones that have been posted on this thread. That's how an engineer see's this issue. It's not about the filters. It's about the required restriction needed to match the system parameters in play which since filter design changed the orifice size need to change to match it to achieve the same end results given an unchanged input pressure or increase in flow from the pump.
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Posted By: DougS
Date Posted: 09 Sep 2016 at 12:19pm
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It's about the filter in that the filter itself provides some of the restriction. Too little restriction means more oil through the filter circuit and not enough (if any) oil pressure to get to the top of the engine. |
Posted By: Allis dave
Date Posted: 09 Sep 2016 at 12:26pm
I'm glad I'm converting over my WD45 to a full flow/filtration system 
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Posted By: Tcmtech
Date Posted: 09 Sep 2016 at 12:28pm
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I disagree. I have both 10 micron filters and large 20 mesh screen filters that neither provide any degree of restriction at low flow rates yet obviously the 10 micron has nearly 100 times finer filtering ability. My point is a filter does not have to have high restriction to have very fine and good filtering ratings. In the case of the tractor oil system once the flow rate limitation is met (combined equivalent restriction) the filter restriction itself is irrelevant. To me it's no different that adding restoring series in an electrical circuit. Say a 15 volt source needs a steady .25 amp draw it doesn't matter if two resistors of 30 ohms or 20 and 40 or 10 and 50 combine to make the 60 ohm resistance or whether one 60 ohm resistor is used. The required current draw at that specific voltage is being met.
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Posted By: Tcmtech
Date Posted: 09 Sep 2016 at 12:30pm
But what's the fitler forward pressure drop and micron rating?
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Posted By: DougS
Date Posted: 09 Sep 2016 at 12:33pm
Depends on the filter material. I really doubt you are going to get 10 microns from cotton. |
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 09 Sep 2016 at 3:17pm
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re: ... why not just buy the factory filter for the $7 it costs ...cause up here they cost 24 Canucks !! and I need 4 of them, sigh.... I'll gladly pay $7 a piece though !! Jay ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 09 Sep 2016 at 3:49pm
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why are you trying to modify the filter, change orifices and redesign the system ? WIX tried that and failed... for the past 70 YEARS you could buy a FRAM or BALDWIN or others that was built to FACTORY SPEC and works fine......... If you want to buy a 15 year old CRAP Wix filter, change the orifice and redesign the AC oil system, that's fine... but WHY ??? I would guess 999 out of 1000 people don't care to do that. Could be done by anyone, but WHY BOTHER......... What they had for 70 years WORKS. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 09 Sep 2016 at 4:21pm
The restriction IS properly sized to let a certain amount of oil pass through the filter. Closing the restriction down may give you more pressure at the gauge, but will filter less oil and do NOTHING for the engine except run dirtier oil thru it. The only pressure needed in the CE engine, is to get oil up to the top of the head so it can leak out through the rocker arm and lube the top end. Here is Dick's description of the oiling system. " Oil pressure is not made at the bearings on this engine. The bearings can all be shot and still have full pressure. The relief valve is in the stem of the oil pump leading to the center of the camshaft. No pressure is built in the camshaft. The cam bearings and main bearings are oiled by the spinning of the cam shaft forcing the oil out holes in the camshaft by centrifugal force. The oil pipe you see leading to the filter and head is where the pressure is built between the relief valve and the resistance thru the oil filter. The spinning of the crankshaft causes the little funnels in the top of the rods to catch oil being spun out of the camshaft holes that are in line with the rods. The oil is forced into the rod bearings thru centrifugal force. That be the oil systems operation in this engine." Now as far as drill bits, you CAN buy just about any size you want as long as it's bigger than .013 of an inch. http://bobmay.astronomy.net/misc/drillchart.htm" rel="nofollow - http://bobmay.astronomy.net/misc/drillchart.htm I've drilled HUNDREDS of 1 mm holes in parts in a CNC lathe. ------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 09 Sep 2016 at 4:35pm
 ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: DougS
Date Posted: 09 Sep 2016 at 5:09pm
It works and at the time it was good enough. It isn't worth changing it today based on a cost/benefit comparison. Had they used a filtration system similar to what is used today the engine would have gone many more hours time between overhaul. The only bypass systems I've seen on modern engines are the add-on types where a small portion of oil is taken and passed through a super filter. Most of the oil goes through a regular full flow filter. |
Posted By: Tcmtech
Date Posted: 09 Sep 2016 at 5:12pm
I have worked with hydraulic system for over 20 years now and what is being done is to me a very simple concept. If the orifice was the correct size then it would keep the oil pressure where it's suposed to be regardless of whether the filter had any restriction or not (the N series Ford tractors did that and so did a number of others) but it clearly does not and the oil filter obviously has to produce a certain back pressure to work due to the limited volume capacity of the pump. That's what I see here. Nothing else. If the system requires a specific back pressure by restriction of the filter circuit it has an equivalent orifice size that will do the same thing while providing the same flow. In my books it's simple hard physics. It can be called anything anyone wants but it's simple pressure Vs flow calculations for a specific orifice size as in the link I gave earlier. And yes I know about the drill bits. I was being sarcastic. I have drill bits down to .0039" (.1 mm) dia. |
Posted By: Tcmtech
Date Posted: 09 Sep 2016 at 5:28pm
Designed to work and designed to work well are two very different things. I'm an engineer and mechanic at heart so to me anything that's designed to sort of work fairly well needs to be redesigned to work better and by today's standards of manufacturing making many of those improvements is not hard or expensive even for the hobby guy like myself. My latest project is a perfect example of that of fixing a ~75 year old 9N ford engine that dad cooked to the point it warped the valves and knocked three of the hardened exhaust valve seats out of it just got a full intake and exhaust port job along with the manifold intake runners cleaned up as well yesterday before everything back together today. Did it need it and will it gain much? Probably not. Maybe 2 - 3 HP, if I am lucky, but then on a tractor that had maybe 14 PTO HP to work with another 2 - 3 is a pretty big improvement! As for modern day improvements they clearly didn't have back then it has modern solid state ignition and now given the severity of the overheat it's getting a custom made thermoswitch fail safe interlock added to the ignition circuit so that if he runs it up over 230 F it will simply just shut off until it cools down. Just because it wasn't factory equipment design 75 years ago doesn't mean it can't be modified or added to something to improve functionality and operating capability today. That's why!  BTW if I ever end up with a AC B I will probably change out the orifice and make an oil filter adapter so that I can stick the same filters on it I use for all my Ford vehicles just because I now know it will drive some purists up the wall!
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Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 09 Sep 2016 at 9:17pm
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Just because it wasn't factory equipment design 75 years ago doesn't mean it can't be modified or added to something to improve functionality and operating capability today.
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anything can be MODIFIED.. I have been an Engineer for 40 years. I repair and modify all kinds of stuff. The filter system on a B works fine as it is. No need to modify. If you insist on using a different filter, then you will need to design and build a new base to mount the filter. Then you will have a new designed filter that works in a BYPASS system on a SPLASH LUBE system... you have accomplished nothing. This is an 1800 RPM 25 HP motor out of 125 cubic inches... Its not rocket science... Presently there are several different manufacturers of filters for the B and they ALL have the same 75 year old design. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: Tcmtech
Date Posted: 09 Sep 2016 at 10:30pm
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Well wasn't the main subject of this thread the how and why some filters give it too low of oil pressure? That's the flaw I was addressing and how I would go about correcting it. BTW, I just finished my Ford 9N valve job and yea it would have ran without the port and manifold intake runner cleanup work but wow did it make a difference that I would say made the extra hour of die grinder work well worth it!  Sure it didn't have to be done but I was already in there and it was a known limitation on those old engines so I corrected it and got some rather impressive results for the time spent. NOw I just need an excuse to go into the transmission and put a different set of gears in first and drop its ground speed by about 1/2 - 1/3 of its designed ratio. Sure it doesn't need it but it something that sure would help fix an annoying limitation in its design.
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Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 09 Sep 2016 at 10:47pm
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well, there were a dozen different post that explained that WIX SCREWED UP 15 years ago and made some wrong filters.. That was changed and for the last 10 years, no problems exist.. Again, there are several manufacturers of filters for the B and they all work identical........
An alternator might be an upgrade for a generator. A distributor might be an upgrade for a magneto. Domed pistons to raise compression might be an upgrade to flat tops... Changing the present B style filter to a Ford PH8 or similar will accomplish nothing. You have to understand the flow pattern of the present system to see this. NEW filter will improve nothing........... its like painting the tractor green... if you want to, that's fine, but it accomplishes nothing. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 09 Sep 2016 at 11:36pm
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He just doesn't understand plain English Steve. Pressure increase in this system will NOT help with lubing the engine,PERIOD. Opening a hole in the external oil line, like what happens when you put a pleated filter on a bypass system will eventually destroy the engine. ------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: Tcmtech
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2016 at 5:18am
Oh I have a lot to who really does or doesn't understand the basic physics behind how this stuff is suposed to work . So please do explain how keeping the oil pressure up where it is suposed to be is not going to properly lube the engine being the lack of adequate pressure due to a filter not being restrictive enough exactly what causes damage given what you say in your second sentence you totally contradict yourself. on what you say first. AS for anyone not understanding so far I have yet to see anyone besides myself here provide a single solid factual scientifically based explanation relating to pressures and flow rates or anything else like filter micron ratings regarding how much oil actually does go through the filtering system or to what good if any it is actually doing. Also if anyone doubts my engineering abilities and reasoning behind this I can refer you to an actual engineering forum where they love working over these sort of questions if you need a more definitive answer. The downside is they ask a lot of questions and don't pull punches plus toss around a lot of real math and real physics equations when working out an answer to a problem. (I'm no dummy and hold my own there pretty well.) http://cr4.globalspec.com Feel free to stop by and start a thread on this oil filter issue. I'll see it and be more than happy to play along. Heck I may even start one myself just to have some experts check my math and see what they come up with.
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Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2016 at 5:24am
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The bottom line is Wix messed up. They sold a filter that didn't work with the B oil system. They didn't sell that crap filter with a kit and instructions to install any orifice or tell anyone that you need to redesign your system for this filter to work. They just sold the wrong filter to unsuspecting customers. With that crap filter, even if you had installed a smaller orifice, now you would have some B/C/WD tractors with that filter and an orifice and some with that filter and no orifice and some with the old filter and no orifice and the new owner who just bought the tractor at the local auction yard wouldn't know which he had and probably wouldn't know there was ever a problem until he stuck that new filter on that doesn't work and figured his gauge just doesn't work and then he proceeds to ruin his engine. So me not being an engineer would just step back and ask........ why couldn't they just make the right filter that fits my tractor so I can get my yard mowed without an overhaul expense. Making the right filter is the simple fix. Apply the KISS philosophy in this case. ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2016 at 5:38am
Now I'm going to insult some of you enjunmaneers here.  My Dad bought a 1500 Gehl round baler back in the late 1970's. That baler made great bales for that time. It also helped him make it through the tough times of the 1980's with custom baling work. But I can remember as a kid having to crawl in that thing many times as I was small enough to get my hands and arms contorted to help replace bearings and fix other parts on that machine. My Dad rarely swore but when it came to that baler I got a little educated in that fine art of cussing when helping him repair that 1500. Dad would often say, as we worked on that machine in the hot & humid Minnesota summers, that if he could get his hands on the engineer who designed that baler he'd be walking around with a hammer sticking out of his head. Educated idiot was another term he threw around back then too. ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: Tcmtech
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2016 at 6:07am
Unfortunately the reality in this world is very few companies do anything anywhere close to ever actually sitting down and fully analyzing how something works let alone how a particular machine may have been originally designed when it comes to putting their product on it until they start getting a load of complaints, and lawsuits filed against them about their product causing damage especially so on something they do not see as being a major market share holder like an antique tractor.  As for myself I just look a the problem and find the most appropriate solution to what I see as the problem or flaw in the design and what would be an easy to work with redesign. As for the putting a smaller orifice and then going back to a high restriction filter I don't see it as being much of a problem being it would be no different than when a filter plugs up and restricts or outrightly blocks the flow entirely. The engine is still getting full lube pressure and that's what it needs. The oil filter circuit itself is just a secondary system that as I see it could be totally removed and its feed line capped off at the port without changing the engine's operation other in any way other than no oil being filtered whatsoever, similar to removing a Luberfiner system on the bigger diesel engines, which to be honest I have no idea how much good they did anyway being no one has provided any numbers on their micron filtering ratings or how much or little oil does flow through a properly designed one. For all we know some filters could only be letting through drops per minute opposed to cup or a quart or more which if they're only letting a small amount through my solution to go down toa ~.045" orifice from the original 1/16" (.063") would make absolutely no difference whatsoever on their filtering ability but would keep the oil pressures up where it needs to be to prevent damage. That's how I see the problem given the information presented and if I had a AC B I would have no problem trusting my solution regardless of what filter I had on it.
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Posted By: Tcmtech
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2016 at 6:08am
double post. 
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Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2016 at 6:09am
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actually Lonn , those 'engineers' should have been forced to REPAIR their own equipment ! Balers aren't the only things 'they've' designed that are a nightmare to work on. We all have our pet peeves.... As for the oil filter discussion, my 57 Willys ran fine with a roll of toilet paper(new...) in the filter housing for miles. Even though I'm an Avionics Tech according to the paper hanging on the wall, common sense says if a 'system' ran fine for 40-50-60 years it doesn't NEED any modifications to run as designed. I'm all for 'tweaking' to get better performance if you want to fix the screwups 'engineers' make, like the idiotic heater controls on my 97 F150 ! Jay ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: Tcmtech
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2016 at 6:45am
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I'll be the first to admit that just like farmers not all engineers are created equal. Heck it was one of my main driving motivations to go to college a second time for engineering. The problem was I saw was that about half the engineers I ever worked with were either intelligent interesting people who had a passion for designing things to work the best way possible and that the type of people I like to work with. The other half? Well let's just say I felt that if those fools could call themselves engineers I definitely could fill their shoes and then some. Unfortunately those of the second half still have jobs designing the stuff we use and that's why so much of it is so damn hard to work on or is so over engineered that it's junk and now given the crappy state of our higher education systems we will be getting more and more over overpriced over engineered junk that doesn't work than ever before. Especially now that anti liability lawsuit and supposed environmental concern take precedence over actual form and functionality of the design.
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Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2016 at 6:47am
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Tcmtech, I'm just saying the easy fast fix was to make the right filter. I agree that your solution would fix your tractor but if those wrong filters were still made, unless someone told the customer to modify his system, the problem of ruined engines would still exist. If I were to redesign it I would throw the whole thing away, forget the bypass altogether and convert to full flow. It's not all that hard to do and you can't mix up filters because the base wouldn't accept the bypass filter unlike the Wix screw up where if one doesn't know about the problem, the wrong filter could be installed. To me it's just not worth messing with and for the novice, they could end up messing up the full flow conversion and make things worse. Overthinking a problem sometimes just doesn't work well. ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2016 at 8:26am
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your still trying to FIX a problem that DOES NOT EXIST........... like I said, paint your tractor green and be happy that you have IMPROVED ITS PERFORMANCE. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: Tcmtech
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2016 at 12:49pm
I agree. The filters should have been properly copied to match the characteristics of the originals but obviously they weren't hence my speculation on how to redesign the problem to not be filter dependant to work properly.  As for what others do that not my problem. I'm not a novice when it comes to the engineering behind changing something I don't speak or work at novice level changes. I know some do not like change. I'm not one of them and I find change to be a welcomed exercise worth pondering on.
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Posted By: AaronSEIA
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2016 at 2:34pm
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Well, you should expect some push back when you come on a forum full of guys who love old iron and tell them the design that is nearly 80 years old and has worked for all of those 80 years is wrong and needs improving. Certainly as technology and knowledge advances the definitions of modern and state of the art are going to float. But...don't come bragging about the big words you can use and tell a room full of guys who know the 80 year old design is fine and expect us to all drink the 2016 engineers kool aid. I'm happy for you, whatever you do and whatever you accomplish with your B and whatever else you can re engineer. I do like change, I change my undies every day, I change my oil as the manual requires, heck I even put universal hy trans oil in my WD tranny. AaronSEIA |
Posted By: Tcmtech
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2016 at 3:56pm
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Someone started a discussion about a technical subject so I gave a technical answer regarding a way to get around the problem. That's what engineering and technical advice is about. Who likes or dislikes it for whatever reason is irrelevant in the equations and if they find raw technical information to be insulting, oh well. As for big words, they are only big to small minded people. If technical info is not someone's thing that again is not my problem. They are living with the confines of their ignorance not me. I don't own a B either. Rumor has it they have a design flaw in their oil filtering systems that make then fussy about what filter can be used with them. I do have a AC WM crawler tractor though that someday I will get around to restoring but obviously I won't talk about it here being I plan to do any reasonable modifications I can come up with to improve its design and good lord that may upset some purists. Especially those who find big words and technical information insulting.
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Posted By: CrestonM
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2016 at 5:38pm
Golly gee, I didn't mean to start all of this, I just posted an article I thought was an interesting read! 
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Posted By: Tcmtech
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2016 at 6:58pm
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I didn't mind it! I thought is was rather informative and well worth the discussion over it. Personally, I rather enjoy those types of videos where a common item is taken apart and analyzed comparing how an old design worked Vs a new one and to what effect those changes have on the use of said item. Sorry here as well. I've never been in a forum where technical discussions got taken so far off for their intent. I was not aware that technical scientific analysis of the physics behind how something was designed and works and how that working concept could be replicated to replace one component with a lower cost yet more effective modern version one was considered 'big word talk' Live and learn (or not in some cases) I guess.
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Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2016 at 10:04pm
To each their own but I wasn't going after you for what you said about redesigning the oil system on a B. But the info is about 75 years too late to change all the B/C/WD/WC tractors already built. ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: Tcmtech
Date Posted: 11 Sep 2016 at 4:34am
I disagree! If it still exists and is used it's never too late to fix or modify something to fix an issue or better suit the users wants or needs. I just did a port and intake runner job on a ~75 year old 9N Ford tractor while I was into it for a valve job! Sure, the port cleanup work could have been done 75 years ago but it wasn't and that didn't mean it couldn't be done now. I also set up with a 12 volt system, low cut in one wire alternator, electronic ignition with external coil, has a four gauge dash with temperature and hour meters added to the stock amp and oil pressure gauges, full runing boards, plus has five 55 watt halogen lights on it too for nighttime work and once my parts arrive it will also have overheat protection that shuts the engine down if it gets too hot of which little of that stuff was factory options let alone existed 75 years ago either. Just because the factory didn't add, let alone think about, that sort of stuff doesn't mean it can't be done at some other point in its existence to correct limitations or weak points in the stock design to make something more functional and all around better! As far as I am concerned I hope the purists see it and poop their pants while screaming, "OMG! You made it better. How dare you. it's ruined now!"
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Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 11 Sep 2016 at 6:23am
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The main reason tractors( cars, trucks) don't get 'ported and polished' is cost !! Just think of the hours YOU spent doing it, then multiply that by 10,000.. 100,000 ... or a million units. Things are designed for 'good enough to get it out the door,FAST', especially these days. Now what I want to know is how long an engine will last running 0Wxx oil ! Seems 'they' keep specing thinner and thinner oils to boost MPG...least so my mechanic says.. Or... how long an ALUMINUM vehicle will survice up here where salt is liberally poured onto the roads all winter long..... Jay ps. If you can come up with a fix for the PTO lever O-ring on D-14s...I have 4 here to 'upgrade'.... ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 11 Sep 2016 at 9:13am
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If the aluminum isn't protected by some sort of coating it will corrode at least to make visible spots. My coated vintage Airstream did from moving it in the winter on salted roads. In 2000 I purchased a '98 F150 with the 4.6 Triton engine used with 24K miles on it. I heard considerable engine rattle so I added a quart or two of Rotella 20W50 and that made it quiet. A while later the owner's manual arrived and it insists on 5W20 semi synthetic because it says some clearances are too small to allow thicker oil to get in and lubricate. It has about 148K on it now and doesn't get run in the winter because the second heater core sprung a leak and its disconnected. The rattle of the light oil apparently hasn't caused any damage. It doesn't use oil yet. I had a VW Golf that wanted OW20 oil. It allowed a 10K miles oil change interval with synthetic. It got two or three quarts low at less than 5K miles. I replaced a suspected cracked oil pan but that didn't cure the leaks. The next owner told me I had folded the pan gasket making it leak. It did OK with 5W20 semi synthetic until it acted like a Ford 5.4 and spit a plug. Its on its second owner since that event. I bought it with 40K miles and the plug spit at about 134K miles, not related to lubrication. My latest wheels probably has a polished manifold and head. Its a 1 liter Fiesta hatch back ecoboost. 3 cylinders and claims 123 hp at 6500 RPM, turbocharged and direct injected. The computer cuts back on fuel right at 6500 on the tachometer, but it has better get up and go than the Golf did and the F150 that has 4.10 rear axle gears because with 3.08 gears and the narrow ratio manual transmission it wouldn't pull the hat off your head. It was rated at 2200 pounds trailer towing and I rate it at 4900 and have pulled 6000 on one occasion, measured at the elevator. The weird thing is that it gets the same 16 mpg after the gear change as it did before the gear change. They had the engine speed too low. Mileage does go down if I run it consistently above 80 mph. Gerald J. |
Posted By: Dmpaul89
Date Posted: 11 Sep 2016 at 9:31am
| Or you can be like me and have a clogged filter tube and not know it for a couple years. (: saves money on filters still looks new.... |
Posted By: Tcmtech
Date Posted: 11 Sep 2016 at 4:00pm
Actually it took about an hour and half of that time was waiting for the Harbor Freight air compressor to catch up. It wasn't a high detail mirror shine job by any means. just a basic deburring and blend job with a 3/8" carbide burr on a $20 pneumatic die grinder I picked up at Menards. All I aimed for was 'it feels right' by bare finger touch. Clean smoothed out transitions and no big lumps or rough spots and a quick port matching based on the manifold gaskets as a reference. Now for your D-14 If I am guessing right those sit in a sort of flange or casting assembly and the shaft either gets worn down to where the seal can't hold onto it or the flange doesn't grab tight enough on the seal body to keep it from seeping sort of like the old MM U's and similar tractors have an issue with on their PTO lever not sealing up. The quick fix for the worn shaft would be to clean it up good and build it up with JB weld or similar epoxy, this stuff perhaps ( http://www.belzona.com/en/products/1000/1131.aspx" rel="nofollow - http://www.belzona.com/en/products/1000/1131.aspx ) , and carefully hand file or sand it down smooth to match the original shaft diameter. Or, get one of those shaft seal bushing kits that uses a thin sleeve that slides over the worn part of the shaft giving the seal a new properly sized surface to work with. Or if your local parts guys are really good at their jobs get a seal that has the same OD and thickness but fits a slightly smaller shaft like putting a 9/16" shaft seal on a worn 5/8" shaft. (I've cheated leaking shaft seal issues with that fix many times. ) Or a more permanent fix if you have a lathe would be to build up the shaft and recut it or rebore the flange/casting to accept a different type, multi lip seal, or multiple seals stacked together. It's just an educated guess being I am not familiar with that particular machines PTO shaft and seal system so I am just going off online photos and personal experience of fixing shaft seal problems in general which typically comes down to simple shaft wear or poor fitting tolerance between the seal body and whatever bore it fits into or a less than optimal seal for the application.
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Posted By: Tcmtech
Date Posted: 11 Sep 2016 at 4:10pm
Yea it can be worse than that. Our old 9N ford, back when it was Grandpa's tractor and before the major rebuild, never had a dirty oil filter either. I suspect that near zero oil pressure on a bypass type filtering systems had a lot to do with it. Now it runs 50 - 60 PSI cold and 30 - 40 warm with a good 20 - 30 at idle! Oil filters don't seem too get dirty either being it takes a good 100+ hours, ~2 years, runtime now to just get the oil to change to a darker color. BTW my dad took it out last night and mowed until well after dark (that's what all those high powered lights and alternator conversion was mainly for) and said that he was mowing ditches in 2nd that he used to have trouble doing in 1st which is pretty impressive considering the rotary mower is 5 foot Bushhog!
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Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 11 Sep 2016 at 6:29pm
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your still trying to FIX a problem that DONT EXIST.
I have never seen anyone on here who spent so much time bragging about himself, kept his ears closed and his mouth open......... Is your daddys name spanky by chance ? ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: Tcmtech
Date Posted: 11 Sep 2016 at 7:11pm
Okay????? How is theorizing about how to fix a proposed problem bragging? Isn't helping each other to fix our old machines what everyone here does? Some have more skills and experience in the fixing area than others so does that make them braggarts too? What about their willingness to participate in threads? What's the problem with that? Is there a per thread post limit I need to adhere to? Give a by the book as short and cryptic answer as possible then run a way and never come back standard I need to work under? I, just like many others here fix things for a living and enjoy helping others who need advice on possible ways to fix their stuff. It's what I do free of charge and without malice and in as professional of manor as I know how to which is getting to be a rather rare quality in people these days. Especially on internet forums. If you want to make up stuff and call it real I have no way of knowing whether it's a real and true problem or not. You mentioned leaking shaft seal so I gave you some ideas on how I would go about fixing it. That's all, nothing more implied than possible solutions. Professional unbiased courtious suggestions based on my experiance with said topic. Do you pose fake problems to other guys here? Guys like DR Allis, who I believe to have been a long time AC mechanic, and then call him a braggart and hassle him for his suggesting a few possible solutions too to a problem that you made up? If you find it fun to pose fake questions to people then call them braggarts and insult them for trying to help you you're obviously nothing more than common low end internet troll. BTW if you honestly have never sen anyone who is as much of a braggart as me you really need to step away from the computer and get out into reality more. also feel free to come over to CR4 and hang out with the engineering crowd. I have a thread going over there about these types of oil systems that expanded into discussions of other old equipment, Unless of course you already have and you're the guy who made an ass hat of himself already.  http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/108772/Bypass-Oil-Filter-Systems-Design-Questions" rel="nofollow - http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/108772/Bypass-Oil-Filter-Systems-Design-Questions I know hanging out with knowledgeable intelligent rather chatty professional people might be dang scary to you but I promise if you play nice they do as well. |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 11 Sep 2016 at 8:32pm
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son, I have been an engineer twice as long as you and probably make twice the money you do....... That has nothing to do with the thread.
Your "professionalism" is lacking when you are told a DOZEN times that the filter system HAS NO PROBLEM.. It has worked for 75 years.. SOMEBODY SCREWED UP THE FILTER... Your " knowledge" says to buy a filter base for a "NEW" type filter, try to mount it to the motor, run additional oil lines, change the orifice, to fix a problem THAT DONT EXIST. I have told you several times in the last week that a new filter WILL DO NOTHING that the old filter cant do now.
You spent 3 pages talking about porting a head... GOOD JOB... there are 40 guys on this page that have done that also.. I have done a dozen of them in the last 20 years.
UPGRADES to an old tractor could be porting the head, taking 100 thousands off the head to up compression, adding an alternator, upgrading to 12 volts ... etc... those all have SOME value......... changing the bypass cotton filter to a bypass paper filter does NOTHING but spend time and MONEY and accomplish NOTHING.........
again, I am glad you have an engineering degree.... please don't assume that your the smartest one here.. There are a couple DOZEN very knolwedgable guys that pass out information and help and MOST are not Engineers.... My engineering degree NEVER taught me to port a head or lap valves. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: Mrgoodwrench
Date Posted: 11 Sep 2016 at 8:53pm
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He's not gonna get it Steve Tcmtech...there is nothing wrong with the b oiling system,plain and simple. The correct type of filter is readily available and inexpensive. Nothing needs fixed. That being said let's pretend the correct filters were obsolete, no we have an issue. Your solution would solve a pressure issueAnd keep it at 15 psi or so assuming the engine was mechanically sound. But what of flow. I'm not an engineer never claimed or wanted to be but I can listen to those with much more experience than me. That engine was designed to filter about 15% of the oil and return it to the pan, changing restrictions will change flow rate. By decreasing orifice size of filter Inlet the oil flow would have to decrease,correct? Where does that oil end up if not filtered and returned to pan? Maybe pumped into the valve train where it could lay in the valve cover because the drain back holes can't handle the extra volume? The system works. Always has. Bad filters were the only problem. If someone wanted to improve the oiling of a b at no expense spared then convert it to full pressure oiling otherwise the best thing you can do is use good oil and change it when recommended. ------------- There are 3 ways to do job GOOD, FAST, CHEAP. YOU MAY CHOOSE 2. If its FAST & CHEAP it won't be GOOD, if it's GOOD & CHEAP it won't be FAST, and if its GOOD & FAST it won't be CHEAP!!!! |
Posted By: CrestonM
Date Posted: 11 Sep 2016 at 8:54pm
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I guess part of being an engineer is taking systems that work and improve them. (At least that's what a friend of mine told me last year) And that sounds like what Tcmtech is doing. Looking at a system that works (The B, C, CA oiling system) and making it work better with better results. It doesn't need to be done, but it would help the pressure I guess, although it does sound to me like his solution would decrease the volume of oil that goes through the filter. |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 11 Sep 2016 at 9:05pm
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No Creston, it would not... a BRAND NEW 2016 full flow filter would do NOTHING for the tractor when installed as a bypass........ don't stick up for him, he refuses to read, listen , and understand the system... he just wants it to be his way........... go to his "ENGINEERING" link and read his comments about all the " dumb old guys on the Allis page that refuse to see his wisdom"....... even the guys on HIS PAGE are making fun of him. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 11 Sep 2016 at 9:32pm
| The oil pressure gauge on the "bypass" filtering systems used on A-C engines, is basically reading the oil pressure being created at the filtering area. A dirty filter (cotton material) generally will read more oil pressure than a brand new cotton filter. A missing vertical tube will read lower oil pressure. A vertical tube pushed clear to the bottom of its bore can (sometimes) read very low oil pressure as well. Heavier viscosity of oil or lighter viscosity is another factor to consider. Now, this oil pressure reading was designed around the fact that the cotton string filter was to receive a certain volume of oil per minute to create this 10-12 psi number. So, the volume is determined by the condition of the oil pump, suction screen cleanliness, main bearing clearances, cam bearing clearances, oil viscosity, etc, etc. Anything that affects the volume being delivered to the filter (higher or lower) immediately shows on the gauge. Very low numbers at the bypass filter aren't necessarily the end of the world, as the internal components are still getting oil and at a pressure number that is probably acceptable. I can remember plowing on many a hot spring day with a pretty well worn WD-45 and the oil pressure needle was barely at "N" when hot and the engine ran like that for years. In short, when EVERYTHING inside the engine (including the oil pump) is NEW and tight, that is the best your oil pressure will ever be. From that day forward, as normal wear and tear starts deteriorating components, the oil pressure slowly begins to fall. THERE IS A REASON THE ENGINEERS NEVER HAD "NUMBERS" ON THOSE OIL PRESSURE GAUGES !!!! |
Posted By: Tcmtech
Date Posted: 11 Sep 2016 at 9:42pm
Exactly. I never said it had to be done my way or anyone else way. That part and comment I have made multiple times seems to escape a number of people's grasp here. I offered a plausible solution and that was it. No one had or has to implement anything. I simply took what information was at hand and offered up a theoretical solution to the filter design issue that would allow for a common low restriction filter to be used in place of the suposedly harder to find ones of stock design. Nothing more. To be honest if I had known so many here would take such great offence to the theory ( or just outrightly troll me over it) on one way of how it may be possible to redesign the system to work with different newer style filters I would have never participated to begin with. I wasn't aware that the AC B's oiling system was the golden calf and pinnacle of AC engineering. Now I know. Don't speak ill of the AC B oil filter system. They were made perfect and will always be perfect. My apologies to all. I thought I was on a forum where rational mechanically minded folk gathered to discuss how to fix their old machines and share ideas and findings about how to improve on their many inherent design flaws, shortcomings and the ever growing problem of finding/ fabrication newer parts to keep said machines alive and well. Clearly I was wrong in that thought and action. |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 11 Sep 2016 at 9:44pm
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I agree with most everything you said Dr ..... normal main and rod bearing wear will effect MOST engines... This particular B-C motor is spray lubed by pumping oil down the hollow cam shaft and spraying oil thru several holes in the shaft toward the piston, bearings and rod ends ...I cant say for sure, but most pressure loss in these motors is probably due to worn pump, plugged screen, sticking relief, bad cork plugs in the rocker arm shaft above the head, or improper installation of the 1/4 inch filter rod AS YOU SAID.... MOST other engines also loose pressure due to worn bearings. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: Tcmtech
Date Posted: 11 Sep 2016 at 9:47pm
So you your over 100 years old now and still working? My job is in the oil fields so unless your pulling the upper side of $200K as an engineer I have doubts but hey, if you've been in the system for 80+ years I suppose it's possible. What was engineering for WWI like? As for my professionalism, well yea I guess compared to a 100+ year old engineer i'm still pretty wet behind the ears.
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Posted By: dpower
Date Posted: 11 Sep 2016 at 9:50pm
| LOL now that is funny. |
Posted By: Tcmtech
Date Posted: 11 Sep 2016 at 9:54pm
Um, actually it's the other way around. The general flow of the thread over there is way different than you seem to be recalling it and I too welcome anyone to come over and have a read and make the decision themself. Heck feel free to jump in! We are past the oil filters and up to discussing some pretty interesting old engine and vehicle designs. I've even thrown in some topics you can pick on me for. So far Steve seems to be failing miserably at it. I really expect better from a 100 year old engineer who makes $200K +
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Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 11 Sep 2016 at 9:58pm
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have you ever heard the saying " when you find yourself in a hole, put down the shovel"..
You would have been further ahead 3 pages ago to say " OH, I guess I didn't realize how the system works.. my bad"......... instead of 3 pages of BS "engineering" theory. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 11 Sep 2016 at 10:06pm
| Main brgs are pressure lubed as are the cam bearings. Rod bearings are sprayed by holes in the hollow cam shaft. |
Posted By: Tcmtech
Date Posted: 11 Sep 2016 at 10:26pm
So on a more serious note. What exactly was their primary intent behind the engine design? Shear simplicity to work on or to be as cheaply manufactured as possible or what? I'm just asking being there are such huge variations in how engines for agricultural and related applications were made back then. Some elegantly simple, others to be as cheaply manufactured as possible and others way over engineered for what they had to do. I've read a lot aobut the history of the Allis Chalmers corporation as a whole, their industrial fabrication and manufacturing capabilities back then was incredible, but I can't say that I have ever seen a lot of detailed documentation into their agricultural branch and what went on behind the scenes there. Maybe I read the wrong history books but what I have seen about their worldwide manufacturing history almost always comes off as, 'Meh, we built some tractors and stuff too.' and that was it.
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Posted By: Brian Jasper co. Ia
Date Posted: 12 Sep 2016 at 10:11pm
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I don't have a dog in this fight, but I gotta ask a question. We can all agree that as produced the bypass system was adequate. How many microns was the cotton filter capable of catching and how many microns was the pleated paper filter capable of catching? My money is on the paper filter being able to catch smaller particles. I'm going to make a guess that the people at Wix didn't know the original filter as designed had a Delta P that needs to be there. The paper cartridge has a lower Delta P than the cotton. Had they designed a restriction in the paper filter to bring the paper filter's Delta P up to the cotton filter, we'd all be using the paper filter. ------------- "Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2016 at 8:01am
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Supposedly, as I was told in ag mechanics school, the cotton media filters more finely than most any pleated filter in that day. ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2016 at 8:04am
------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2016 at 9:32am
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It's pretty obvious you still don't understand the lube system on the CE engine. There never was a problem with low oil pressure with these few bad filters. The problem was no pressure, which happens if you don't restrict the flow. Since the is no "orifice" to restrict the flow, the cotton packed filter did that. There is no problem getting the proper filter for this system. Wix screwed up once many years ago but corrected that very soon after. "I started trying to explain that but it got shot apart pretty quickly because 'even a moron knows that the more restrictive the filter the better it's filtering'.
which in their world apparently leaves no room for modern low micron
count filters that use large pleated cloth surface area designs over
small surface area larger micron count packed cotton types. Personally this was my favorite response I got and I had to read it several times to get past the conflicting context. "He just doesn't understand plain English Steve. Pressure increase in this system will NOT help with lubing the engine,PERIOD. Opening a hole in the external oil line, like what happens when you put a pleated filter on a bypass system will eventually destroy the engine." So increasing oil pressure won't help the engine, period. Yet lack of pressure is what causes damage. What? Does that mean the engine is screwed no matter what is done?"I'm pretty wary of going after anyone until I am sure I know what I am dealing with. In engineering and mechanical work it's rare that anyone who has the mindset that makes them good at that sort of work is going to shoot their mouth off over dumb irrelevant stuff that could easily make themself look like a fool or worse.Looking at other comments on that post, I can see you like inventing problems that don't exist, like not being able to buy parts for these old engines. Anybody can buy almost any internal part for the Allis CE engine any day of the week. I was a tool maker, machinist, and machine tool repairman for most of my working career and have met a few "engineers" that couldn't see the problems they create even if you built it their way and showed em it didn't work. ------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2016 at 9:51am
Has the topic has run it's course yet  ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2016 at 10:44am
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Yes it has Lonn. I came here this morning wanting to make a simple point, and got side-tracked. The point is, there was nothing wrong with the Allis BE-CE lube system till and "engineer" that didn't understand it, designed a new filter. Now I'm done. ------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: CrestonM
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2016 at 10:52am
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I think the system works fine, but like any system, it can always be improved. Just like if you look at 1953, you'll see a new WD-45. If you look at 1983, you'll see a new 4W-305. Both were the biggest A-C tractors during their time, but gradual changes to make the 50's tractors "better" over the years, led to the 4W-305. At least, that's my stance. In closure, yes, the B/C/CA oiling system, which serves it's purpose as intended, could be improved, but that's why we have later model tractors!  They've been improved! (Rather than continuously recalling old tractors to be "retro-fitted") |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2016 at 11:28am
| As technology marched onward, more and more HP was derived from the same/similar cubic inch displacement. The next generation A-C engine(G-149/ D-14) from this small-block configuration, had oil pressure lubing of the connecting rod bearings, which the B-125 engine didn't have, but still retained the bypass filtering system. This was to keep a certain amount of reliability with the RPM and compression ratio increases. When the next G-149 engine was used in the D-15, RPM's and compression were increased again and now they went with full-flow oil filtering. So, each step of the way, changes were made to attain a certain level of service life and reliability. Engine technology has seen more and more improvements with better main/rod bearing materials, better/stronger crankshaft materials, turbocharging, intercooling, piston cooling, and on and on....In short, Engineers are given parameters to work within. Cost, performance and reliability would rank right up there as important criteria to meet. Bypass oil filtering was also used by Competitors to A-C, even utilizing the same exact cotton string filter. It was a good enough system for the times. |
Posted By: Tcmtech
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2016 at 2:22pm
That's largely what engineers do. Take present designs that do work and expand and improve on them to make bigger, better, more efficient, more effective designs that surpass the old ones. If they didn't we would all still be picking at roots with pointy sticks like was done thousands of years ago rather than riding around in multi hundred HP turbo charged tractors with air conditioned comfort ride cabs, doing largely by ourselves, the equivalent work of what took thousands of workers to do by hand only a few hundred years ago. I have no issues with the B tractors bypass oiling system. It works well enough when the correct parts are being used. However obviously newer parts came out that did not work as the old ones and that was exactly what I was addressing in my theorization. Nothing more regardless of what a few others have managed to read into it and by god did they ever read a pile of stuff that was never there, directly implied, contextually or even in a weed induced stupor into it! I was simply commenting on how I would have approached this by the numbers in making a change to fix the issue that comes up when a different filter design than the stock one is used purposely or otherwise. The rest of my comments here was largely just defending myself from what I now know are the sites bitter barely litterate trolling ass hat clown committee (that upon further review might all be the same person who's running two or more fake member proxy accounts here?) that obviously separate their own personal experiences between good and bad engineers apart, just as many engineers can't separate their experiences between good and bad mechanics, and will never be pleased with what me or anyone who does not see the world as they do.  |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2016 at 6:04pm
 ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2016 at 8:03pm
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Well this has been interesting.... but I've come to appreciate 'it it ain't broke, don't need to fix it' .. leave well enough alone !! Obviously the 'B' engine has run fine and longer than a lot of guys have been alive. Yes, it can always be 'tweaked', 'upgrade', 'reengineered' but why bother? It was fine back in 39...still runs today. You just can't tweak this without looking at that or the other thing...domino effect. Now if you really want to 'tweak' or 'improve' a few things...fix the silly TPMS on every car so when you put snows on the computer doesn't keep chiming those tires are flat.... fix the idiotic inter computer bus on Dodge pickups...(BTW don't EVER run out of DEF in a new truck !).. make the end cap of the F150 gear shift NOT break off( I'm on #5...truck has 75,000 miles on it) ..tweak the adhesive applicating robot to put MORE goop on the rear window to SEAL it...and finally answer me WHY the Ford 'engineers' decided the radio antenna lead 'needed' not 1 or two or three but FOUR xmas tree clips along the 2 feet it runs! While you're at it I'd like them 'engineers' to come here and show me HOW to replace it without tearing the dash apart, in under 5 stinking HOT hours !! Yup, I have very,very , no , NO respect for them 'engineers'. Idiots..each and every one, they live in their computers NOT in the real World...they've never ,ever worked on anything they 'engineered'. You think I'm wrong? Come on up and replace the antenna cable...if you can do it 'by the book' in less than 5 hours. I'll give you 'Paris' ( D-14 #3). Jay ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: CrestonM
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2016 at 9:24pm
Be glad for engineers, or you'd be walking everywhere and farming with sticks instead of big powerful trucks and tractors.
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Posted By: Tcmtech
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2016 at 10:24pm
I am as much a wrench turner as anyone else here and I totally agree with your statement about idiotic unserviceable designs they put into stuff now so you can't blame me for the designs. I had and have nothing to do with any of it any more than say you as some random fellow wrench turner has any more responsibility for what some other ape armed half with fool that calls himself a mechanic does to anyone else's vehicle through their own ignorance. Undoing that crap as I come across it and to the best of my abilities on my and people I knows stuff is the area of my Applied engineering (hands on in the trenches Engineering would be a fair explanation) and mechanic work I spend most of my time and expertise in. BTW, when properly implemented Applied engineering is largely being the technical guy who works out on the production floor with the quality control staff and or with the mechanics/service people of the industry to try and keep that crap from ever being built or at least tries to see to it that less of it get built and it's about as well received and appreciated as what everyone saw here with my posts. On a good day something gets improved but on a typical day it's just an unending fight against misunderstandings and poorly received unthankfully taken out of context work based on others preconceived notions, bad past experiences, , unrealistic expectations and above all just an ongoing sheer ignorance of what it is they are dealing with and what it is an Applied engineering technicians job deals with. Applied technical engineers of all fields don't design a lot of things from the ground up themselves. They try to keep others poorly designed stuff from hitting the production floor or dealing with it once it hits that market. It's basically the middle guy between quality control or infield work and the desk jockey draftsman that never leave their offices to pick up a wrench and see how friggin impossible their 'perfect design' is to work on or service with common tools or components. Hell. many desk jockey draftsmen/engineers don't even acknowledge applied engineering technicians as even being an engineer in their own fields. To them their just a glorified pain in the ass wrench monkey that can continually question and point out the flaws in their all knowing and perfect work.
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Posted By: Mrgoodwrench
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2016 at 10:29pm
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The real problem with engineers is the same problem with doctors...do you know what they call the guy who graduated last in his class at engineering school?...engineer Some are great and design things that make life better. Others are better at convincing others the what they have designed is better than it is. ------------- There are 3 ways to do job GOOD, FAST, CHEAP. YOU MAY CHOOSE 2. If its FAST & CHEAP it won't be GOOD, if it's GOOD & CHEAP it won't be FAST, and if its GOOD & FAST it won't be CHEAP!!!! |
Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2016 at 6:00am
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I've been following this thread since the start and have remained silent, until now. My opinion on this thread is that you guys (maybe one in particular) have changed (hijacked) what was a very informative thread about how different oil filters affect oil pressure on the B engine, to improving oil pressure on this particular engine, then to changing the complete oiling system and finally to opinions on engineers (I worked with engineers my entire career and fixed their mistakes that anyone with an ounce of common sense shouldn't have made...) If you guys want a new topic, please start a new thread!!! I, personally, was finding the original thread informative, but I am sick of the BS!!! |
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2016 at 6:41am
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re: Be glad for engineers, or you'd be walking everywhere and farming with sticks instead of big powerful trucks and tractors. Well life was simpler back then, bet many here would like it ! Lot less problems too !! Jay ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: Gary Burnett
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2016 at 6:48am
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I'm no engineer but I do know in any pressurized oil system that restricted flow means pressure build up,more restricted the less the flow.In the case of the B oiling system seems like the more oil pressure the less amount of oil is being filtered as it has a bypass to let the extra oil thru directly back into the engine unfiltered.Now it seems to me the goal of the filtering system should be to filter the most oil possible so it seems that the filter that develops the less pressure would be the best as long as its doing the the job of filtering.In other words I would think it would be better to filter all the oil pretty good than just some of the oil better.To say the B oiling system was fine disputes what AC did later create a full flow oiling system that filtered all the oil if the B system had been fine they'd of never went to the full flow system. |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2016 at 7:02am
Guess again  ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: Ken in Texas
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2016 at 7:53am
| zzeesssh If it ain't broke what's to fix? |
Posted By: DougS
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2016 at 8:44am
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You assume everything is equal, Gary. Oil viscosity, pump pressure and filter density are three things that can affect pressure. Pressure may or may not indicate increased oil flow to any particular component. There is no pressure bypass on this filter system so any oil that doesn't pass through the filter is sent to engine components. Oil that passes through the filter in this bypass system is returned directly to the oil sump. |
Posted By: Tcmtech
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2016 at 9:06am
I understand what you re saying but if you read everything I posted in its proper context from start to finish all I did was post one possible idea and the numbers behind the how and why of it about how the filter issue could have been solved on the engine itself. No ill will against the AC engineers of the time or anyone who ever owned worked on one those tractors. Just a basic comment on how it could possibly be addressed to work with any low restriction filter. That was it. After that pretty much every post beyond that point was defensive against little more than sheer trolling for sake of trolling. I didn't start the trolling war but I sure as hell don't give ground to people who have less reading comprehension let alone mental capacity or skills than my own or want to take out their revenge on me for things I have zero association with their design and creation. Not all engineers are good and not all are bad and just because someone had a bad experience with a design does not mean every engineer or person associated with engneering had a hand in or shares personal responsibility in its being created that way. If I came here and took out my unending wrath on everyone who's a farmer by attacking them post after post over nonsensical irrelevant made up drivel that does not relate to anything they actually said because I had a runnin with one or two idiot farmers in my life would that be the least bit fair to you or anyone else who took up the career of farming no matter the size of their farm or what they grow? I don't but that what's been done to me here.
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Posted By: Tcmtech
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2016 at 9:09am
Sometimes it's not about fixing something that broke. It's about keeping things from breaking again or too often.
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Posted By: Gary Burnett
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2016 at 9:32am
Think someone said that the B system filters 15% of the oil flow,would you want to run a air filter or any other filter that let 85% of the air or oil go unfiltered? |
Posted By: skeeters65
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2016 at 1:25pm
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Ok I admit it didn't read the entire thread. Too much bickering and technical maubo jumbo. I just picked up a Hastings LF405 filter and was going to change the oil on my B. Is that a good filter?? Thanks |
Posted By: Ken in Texas
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2016 at 4:39pm
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Just what the heck are you trying to filter out of your engine oil anyway? Rocks, sticks, bugs , corn pollen , or metal shavings? I have parted out Bs Cs and CAs with good oil pressure that still had antique flat top oil filters on them. Who ever heard of HIGH DETERGENT 15 40 back in the days of flat top filters. |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2016 at 5:02pm
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Skeeter - the Hastings is a rebadged Baldwin I believe. Should be fine... Install and at startup see that the gauge reads 10- 15 psi depending on how worn things are.
On the 15% of oil filter question..... the 85% goes to the motor as lube and maintains about 15 psi.. If you installed a BAD filter that has no restriction and lets 40% of the oil go thru it, then you have 60% of the output going to lube and the oil pressure drops to 5 psi which is not good. There were MANY engines in the 1940s and even later that had NO FILTER. This design was constantly cleaning a portion of the oil. Eventually all the oil gets cleaned. IN this design, if the filter becomes PLUGGED, then you still had oil to all the internals / bearings..... that was a good design in the 1940s. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2016 at 5:07pm
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No ill will against the AC engineers of the time or anyone who ever owned worked on one those tractors. Just a basic comment on how it could possibly be addressed to work with any low restriction filter. That was it.
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--There are no "low restriction filters" available. This filter head has a mason jar type screw thread. NOTHING else will fit... Only the CORRECT backpressure filters are available at this time, from several sources..... Wix SCREWED UP 15 years ago on their filter.. that filter was discontinued. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |