soften metal,,,??
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Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
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URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=126441
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Topic: soften metal,,,??
Posted By: desertjoe
Subject: soften metal,,,??
Date Posted: 27 Jul 2016 at 9:35pm
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I been buggin ole Coke on procedure to dis-assemble the rotary cylinder on the Mark IV,,,and he has been a great help,,,  I got a question for the gurus on tempering metal. The cylinder has 6 allen headed ,,1/4" pipe plugs that have to be removed to access some pins that have to be removed. One of the pipe plugs got buggered up and allen started slipping on plug,,,,ARGGgggg,,,!!!  What is the procedure to "soften" the plug in order to drill it out,,,??? |
Replies:
Posted By: thendrix
Date Posted: 27 Jul 2016 at 9:44pm
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Use a good quality drill, plenty of oil, and low rpm to keep the heat down and you should be able to drill it. I doubt you could do any good trying to anneal it. It being a set screw it should have a point in the center of the socket that will help center your drill. Drill through first with a drill slightly larger then the hex. Then go through with the tap drill and you should be able to get it through. Pull the threads out with a pick and some pliers, run a tap through the hole, hole is fixed. ------------- "Farming is a business that makes a Las Vegas craps table look like a regular paycheck" Ronald Reagan |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 27 Jul 2016 at 9:59pm
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Softening hard steel takes heating it red hot and cooling it slowly. With the screw in the parts its going to cool fast. But sometimes that makes it come out easily because it expanded while it was hot and jelly soft and the surrounding metal didn't let it expand so when it cools its smaller than it was and so can come loose. For drilling a left hand bit can be handy, first it puts a force on the screw to remove it from the threads, and then when it catches its as good as an easy out that is easily broken in hardened screws. Gerald J. |
Posted By: MACK
Date Posted: 27 Jul 2016 at 10:08pm
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If it is pipe plugs, they should be soft. Best thing to do is lay a nut on top of plug, weld nut to plug through hole. MACK
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Posted By: Michael V (NM)
Date Posted: 27 Jul 2016 at 10:12pm
| can ya weld a nut or something else to the plug? I'd try that before drilling,, heat and maybe tac welding a sacrificial wrench to the offending plug? I'd really study the darn thing before drilling,,, but my drilling out broken studs, nuts etc., usually don't go well |
Posted By: desertjoe
Date Posted: 27 Jul 2016 at 10:43pm
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See,,,I DID get it to come out bout 3 threads before it galled and wouldn't move no more,,either in or out,,,then the allen i was using started to slip in the head. Reason I said it was hardened steel is,,, I got a cold chiesel and was gonna try to turn it with the chiesel but all that happened was it mushroomed the cheisel edge,,,,!! and did NOTHING to the plug,,!! I think I will try the slow drill in the morning . I saw several posts on Youtube bout using masonary drill bits for drillin hardened steel,,,,????? anybody try that,,,,?? Thanks for all the suggestions, Guys,,,!!! |
Posted By: Unit3
Date Posted: 27 Jul 2016 at 11:00pm
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Not that it would do any good, but I would also use a hammer and punch in the screw. Then try to turn it out. Then when that doesn't work, and it won't, then drill. ------------- 2-8070FWA PS/8050PS/7080/7045PS/200/D15-II/2-WD45/WD/3-WC/UC/C |
Posted By: 7060
Date Posted: 27 Jul 2016 at 11:03pm
| If it's small sometimes I weld a flat washer on first and then weld the nut to the washer around the edge. |
Posted By: LeonR2013
Date Posted: 27 Jul 2016 at 11:38pm
| Joe, I've had very good success taking a brazing tip and heating it red hot. Let it cool all he way and then give it a try. If you have messed up the threads it's drill and tap time as already suggested. |
Posted By: shameless (ne)
Date Posted: 28 Jul 2016 at 12:50am
| weld a vise grips to it, duct tape and wire a steel fence post to the vise grips, puts panther pee on it, then rock the tractor back and forth every morning for a month or so! go work on something else or drink beers in between times. |
Posted By: j birke
Date Posted: 28 Jul 2016 at 5:21am
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Before you go drilling it out take a tig welder to the center of the plug warm it up. Then grab a metric Allen wrench and drive it in normally will come out with out problem. ------------- 25-40, WD-45, D14, D17D, D19G, D19G, D19D, D19D, 185, 190G, 190D, 200, 7000, 7060, and 8030 |
Posted By: desertjoe
Date Posted: 28 Jul 2016 at 6:20am
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Thet Dang Shameless,,,,,  I can't imagine even tryin to keep up with him when he is on the prowl,,,,,,,,!!!,,,although the drinkin beer idea might be a good thing to dwell on whilst you ponder what to try next,,,,,,Hey J Birke,,,after the 1/4" allen wrench had slipped a time or two,,I did sorta drive a 7MM allen wrench (which is slightly bigger than the 1/4" one" into the hex,,and it slipped also,,,, I think,,I will try the slow drill out of the center portion of the pipe plug, and use an ease-out,,,??? this "should" leave enough meat on the plug for tryin the followin,,,, I don't have a TIG,,but if the drill out idea don't work,,thinkin bout tryin my Mig welder to weld a nut onto the plug and give that a go,,,,, I don't really want to use any more heat on the plug as the stationary seals are right next to this area,,,Thanks for all the ideas,,, wish me luck,,, |
Posted By: MACK
Date Posted: 28 Jul 2016 at 7:47am
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Welding a nut to the plug will also shrink the plug after it cools. A masonry bit will drill about any hard metal, but I would try other ways, before drilling. MACK
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Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 28 Jul 2016 at 8:13am
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Masonry bit is carbide tipped....so hard as a wedding night, well, ... So if you have one, give it a try, or could buy a couple of solid carbide drills. Pricey, but will cut any hard steel at slow speed. |
Posted By: thendrix
Date Posted: 28 Jul 2016 at 8:36am
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Be careful with carbide. It's extremely hard and, there for, very brittle ------------- "Farming is a business that makes a Las Vegas craps table look like a regular paycheck" Ronald Reagan |
Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 28 Jul 2016 at 10:10am
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^Yep. That's why I said get a couple!
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Posted By: WDDave
Date Posted: 28 Jul 2016 at 6:05pm
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desertjoe, Weld a nut on if you can sounds like a good first try since you say it has moved a few turns. If it comes down to drilling it out it will take a lot of pressure to get a masonry drill to drill hardened steel the carbide tip just doesn't have the right edge ground on it for cutting steel. Cobalt drills are harder than regular High speed drills but not as brittle as carbide so are a little tougher, keep the speed low and use some oil. Dewalt has cobalt drills you can probably find them in a big box store. I have also drilled hardened steel with Hi-Roc drills or 2 flute carbide drill, can be done dry speed can be faster. I have burned thru hardened tool steel with these with sparks flying. A BIG word of caution though if using any carbide as thendrix said these are hard and brittle and can break easy so if you get a piece of carbide broke off in the piece you have a real problem. Good luck ------------- WD ,wide front, with loader |
Posted By: Jacob (WI,ND)
Date Posted: 28 Jul 2016 at 8:27pm
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Might be beyond this but I'll throw it out there anyways. Dad has told me that at work he uses a set of the allen wrenches with the socket adapter on them, but these are slightly TAPERED so you can drive them into the slightly bad screw head to get a good solid bite before they are totally stripped out. Says they work really good and have saved him a bunch of times. ------------- Jacob Swanson 1920 6-12; 1925,1926 20-35 longfenders; 1925,1926 15-25's; 1927,1929 20-35 shortfenders; C; B's; IB; WC's; WD; WD45 |
Posted By: LeonR2013
Date Posted: 28 Jul 2016 at 9:20pm
| Well Joe you got plenty of suggestions and no doubt they've all worked one time or another. But nobody mentioned diamond tipped bits. I didn't want to say anything about them cause I was afraid you'd go into sticker shock and keel over. But they will work. |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 28 Jul 2016 at 10:35pm
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Are you sure its the right size allen wrench, they come in metric too? Are you sure its not Torx, they kind of look like allen but allen wrenches slip easily. Gerald J. |
Posted By: desertjoe
Date Posted: 28 Jul 2016 at 11:20pm
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Well,I went out this mornin armed with all these great suggestions and just knew thet soab was comin out,,,NO two ways bout it,,,,,,, Took and put a good sharp on my best 1/4" drill bit and doused it up good with some tapping fluid and slow drilled a perfect hole thru the center of the plug pretty as you please,,,,til I hit the HARDENED tool steel pin that are behind the plugs,,,,&*^^%$^^,,,,I machined me a "pin" to try to drive the hardened pin on into the cylinder but no dice,,,, the pipe plug is only bout 3/8" long so could not use an ease out either,,,as the the dang hardened pin keepin it from goin deep enough to grab on the pipe plug,,,%^&%$#@$%^*SO,,,,out comes my trusty MIG and like several here suggested,,, I welded a nut around the plug,,,and screwed it out pretty as you please,,,WOW,,,DANG,,,talk bout a BFJ just for this little bitty pipe plug,,,,,Many, many thanks for all the support, Guys,,, I've decided to remove the whole cylinder as I prolly should replace the top and btm seals,cause you can bet your last can of Black label they WILL leak if I don't,,,,!! NOW,,,I need some input on who or where to contact bout getting these seal kits,,I've read several places that the M/F 50 and 52 are same size,,,????? |
Posted By: JayIN
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2016 at 5:08am
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Minn Par and Massey. ------------- sometimes I walk out to my shop and look around and think "Who's the idiot that owns this place?" |
Posted By: desertjoe
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2016 at 8:52am
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Thanks Jay IN,,,I'm gonna call Minn-Par this mornin and sure hope I can talk with ole John there as Gary did not seen to want to look into the issue with me when I last called,,,,, I have 3 different manuals on the Mark IV and one on the MF 52 A,,,and after comparing them and trying to develop a list of PN's from the books,,,they are all different,,,!! The tag on the backhoe has a SN of 1A 686 AC,,but the section for cylinder used PRIOR to MK IV 2A-1248 is NOT the cylinder I have,,,,!! Yet another section of the book for SN MKIV 2A-1248 thru 3A-1355 DOES appear to be the cylinder I have,,,???,,,BUT the part numbers are different yet,,!! SHEEESH,,,,,!!! In tryin to compare with the MF book,I do not see a pic of the cylinder I have,,there some similarities in the barrels, Dang,,I'm sure hopin ole John at Minn-Par can help,,,,cause at this point,,,I;m like Little Red riding Hood,,,,,, |
Posted By: shameless (ne)
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2016 at 11:26am
| I thoughts little red riding hood was cute and skinny? |
Posted By: desertjoe
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2016 at 6:59pm
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WHY,,,,YOU,,,,!!! YOU,,,,!!!,,Shameless,,,!!!,AW CHIT it ain't no use tellin you nuttin,,,heck,, you don't listen noways,,,!!!! Actually,,,,I wasn't alludin to her be'in pretty,,,,Aw Heck,,,you ain't gonna believe me either,,,,,,, To get back to matters at hand,,,,,,,,I DID NOT DO A CHITTIN bit of good on the backhoe all day,,,and I am pissed very much,,,,,, I was tryin to get one of the big 1 1/2" nuts holdin the cylinder to the frame,,and wouldn't you know it,,,,that soab galled'ed up bout halfway and after messin with it for a few HOURS,,I finally cut the friggin nut off,,the other nut must of seen the fate of it's twin and it gave up and came right on out,,, Got them nuts out the way but I been messin with tryin to get the cylinder broke loose from the splines on the swing frame. I heated and heated and finally gave up and came inside,,,,Shameless,,,you got any tannerite,,,??? Gosh Dang,,I am pissed'ed good and need a cold Black label,,,,,,, |
Posted By: shameless (ne)
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2016 at 8:27pm
| I gots LOTS of tannerite! but it'll prolly bugger the paint sum! |
Posted By: JC-WI
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2016 at 9:43pm
about as helpless as this lill flamen RED? Are ye sure theres not some stinkin little set screw hiding somewhere? or simply need to put it in a big enough press? ------------- He who says there is no evil has already deceived himself The truth is the truth, sugar coated or not. Trawler II says, "Remember that." |
Posted By: desertjoe
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2016 at 4:14am
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YEP,,,YEP,,,JC,,,thas what I need,,,some RED HOT heat to get the thing to break loose,.,,, I thought bout maybe a roll pin or something keepin the Cylinder shaft from breakin loose from the frame,,,but there just ain't NO WAY to put one in after you set the cylinder onto the frame as the part where the frame splines is,,,is way up into a recessed area,,, I had to use a mirror to see "where" I was holding the torch cause it is way up in thet recess,,,, I been study'in this PITA dang near all nite and here I am at 2 AM,,,still ponderin bout it,,sheeesh,,,,,Only'ist thing I come up with is MORE HEAT on the friggin splines and hope it breaks loose,,,,, Shameless always gots some ideas,,,they may be quirky but might work,,,,and,,,,,and,,,don't worry bout the paint,,,at this point,,,,paint is least of my worries,,,,,  |