What to use for a garden tractor puller??
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Topic: What to use for a garden tractor puller??
Posted By: KevinON
Subject: What to use for a garden tractor puller??
Date Posted: 04 May 2010 at 8:41pm
| In a couple of years, my son will be able to compete in the 4H garden tractor pulls, and I was wondering what AC tractor would be good for this. Right now, all that I know is that it must be under 20HP. Just wondering if anyone has any experience with this? All my experience is with modified farm stock and pro stock tractors!! Thanks. |
Replies:
Posted By: RSallis-pullinMD
Date Posted: 04 May 2010 at 9:05pm
| An 716 6 speed or 710 6speed same tractor different hp engine used to have 716 6speed my son and myself pulled with.All you need to do is change the a series drive belt to a b series and it will hold in pullin situation Very easy to change gear ratio by using cheap weld a hub and pulleys. |
Posted By: Cal
Date Posted: 04 May 2010 at 9:17pm
| My son used to pull a B12 with an 8" pulley on the trans. He's 36 now ,but I can still remember the grin the first time he beat those JDs & cub cadets. something about the way those old cast iron Briggs pull & lug down. Note on those ol Briggs leave the points, the electronic ign. goes away at low rpms. Cal in Ct |
Posted By: DREAM
Date Posted: 04 May 2010 at 9:21pm
| I don't know about what AC mowers had what, but if you could find one that had an inline drive with a shaft and clutch system like IH did on the Cub Cadets, you would be ahead of the game with getting power to the ground. I have some freinds who used to pull GTs. I'll ask them if they know. The old B series ACs were pretty stout for belt-driven machines, as well as some of the early Sears(Roper-built) tractors. |
Posted By: DSeries4
Date Posted: 04 May 2010 at 9:38pm
The AC 620 and 720 are conservatively rated at 19.5 hp. Are hydrostats allowed though? At 1300 pounds they've got the weight you need!
 |
Posted By: SHAMELESS
Date Posted: 04 May 2010 at 11:37pm
| i've seen alot of ac 310's pulling, i've got one but not for sale, and alot of local pullers keep hounding me for it! so it must be a good puller? |
Posted By: Dusty MI
Date Posted: 05 May 2010 at 12:38pm
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I've got a Simplicity 3415 S I need to get rid of. Anyone interrested? Dusty ------------- 917 H, '48 G, '65 D-10 series III "Allis Express" |
Posted By: farmtoybuilder
Date Posted: 05 May 2010 at 3:40pm
We use a B-110 with 12hp. briggs in it. Does well in stock classes! We have double clutch springs on it and B width belt. Weak point is axle tubes And side differential gears on any of the AC's and simplicity's. All brands have their weaknesses.
 ------------- 5 different TT-10's,5 TT-18's Terra Tigers,B-10,2 B-207's,B-110,2 B-112's,HB-112,B-210,B-212,HB212,2 Scamp's & Homilite T-10. Still hunting NICE HB-112 & anything Terra Tiger & Trailers for them. |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 06 May 2010 at 7:24am
|
Regardless of the tractor pull, the winner is always the sled, and the
determining factor is the rules. The Wismer-Luth agricultural tractive effort prediction boils down to ratios- weight of the tractor, proportion of weight between driven and undriven wheels, and the diameter of the driven wheels. Once the wheel starts to slip, the amount of drawbar effort available rises in very small increments with addition of large amounts of horsepower. SO... regardless of what you use in pulling, weight is a key factor, hence GT pulling is usually categorized by weight class. Don't take a knife to a gunfight- make sure your machine weighs in at the maximum allowed, and keep that weight under control. As Jeff noted, garden tractor drivetrain weaknesses are usually the biggest issue. Many manufacturers used belt drives and lightweight transaxle assemblies, oftentimes wet clutches buried inside an aluminum housing... many Peerless transaxles are that way. The defining feature of true 'Garden tractors', are that they're intended, from the git-go, for 'ground engaging implements'... this means tractor-pulling was part of the intent... mebbie not against a sled, but against a plow. Serious garden tractors have heavy drivelines, strong axle tubes and shafts, stout clutches, and engines that live long and develop high torque. Easy way to find these guys- pick up the back half. If you can lift it, it's not stout enough. EVERY type of driveline has it's limitations. Using a belt-driveline system usually defines your power limit very early. The maximum amount of power transmittable by a belt is determined by the belt shape, tension, and amount of tractive surface on the belt... aka 'wrap' surface. There's plenty of good information out there, and Carlisle has a belt selection program that will identify the maximum amount of power that a belt can reliably carry... if you plug in the numbers for a variety of common setups, you'll find that shaft-driven drivelines have a distinct advantage over belts. Hydrostatic drivetrains, although very capable, tend not to be used for competition, because the hydrostat is horsepower-lossy in comparison to gear-drives. Most rule-books will have some stipulation that once the hydrostat speed has been selected, it cannot be changed, so running a hydro puts you at a disadvantage. I haven't seen many incidences where a belt-driven machine out-pulls a shaft-driven, but where they did, it was simply a matter of operator skill. I've also seen many pulling tractors that wore one company's colors, but had a Cub Cadet gear-drive rearend. Why? Because the Cub Cadet rearend is the same as that used in the Farmall Cub... right out of a genuine farm tractor... heavy iron, oftentimes fitted with a ring-and-pinion out of a Dodge Dart, and fine-spline axleshafts... there simply aren't any other 'stock' rearends out there that come close. Kohler K-series motors appear to dominate stock classes, and if you like to 'work' on your engine, and the rules allow, the 'small' 12hp engine frequently responds best to modification... it will typically survive best making much more power than the 14 and 16hp blocks, albeit you'll have a special head, crank, and flywheel, very high governed RPM, velocity stack, and all sorts of other crazy things... and when you get it 'right', the dyno will be up around 45hp or so... (and your wallet will be really, really empty). But if you concentrate on the concept that it's supposed to be FUN... pull what 'ya brung, and ignore what the other guys do... look at the track, hitch up, wait for the flag, and when it's time, realize that it's you against the track, and the sled ALWAYS wins. At the end of the day, if you come home with mud in your hair and a smile on your face, you did it right. |
Posted By: Good
Date Posted: 06 May 2010 at 8:41am
| My Dad pulled a B-212 that has 3 speed with variable,he used 3 springs on clutch and the variable belt is about 2 inches wide and is real strong.He had it weighing 1000lbs. with operator and never broke anything.But I split the outer axle tube open plowing with a 12inch bottom inside an old barn foundation, but the tractor was only 30 years old at the time.By the way Dave wouldn't a panzer rearend exceed a cub rearend? when I was a kid all my friends that's parents had cubs where constantly working on the drive and mowerdeck cluthes,not to mention the mowerdecks are terrible along with slow steering and then not sharp turning.My opinion is that pulling is the only good use for a cub. |
Posted By: Nathan
Date Posted: 06 May 2010 at 8:45am
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I have a 716 that is set up for pulling just needs a motor if anybody is interested let me know and i will get you the information on it. thanks nathan ------------- 35WC 37WC D-10 D-12 D-14 D-15 D-17series 1 (2)D-17IV D-19 CA RC Unstyled WF GLEANER E 416H 314H 712H 716H |
Posted By: wjohn
Date Posted: 06 May 2010 at 9:14am
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I always wondered how well one of those old Gravely 4-wheel lawn tractors would do in a pull. They sure are built strong enough for it, with no belts and the engine in the rear. I would think an older Allis mower with a little modification would be good too. I would probably go with a 310 or something similar (314 maybe?). ------------- 1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1952 CA, 1956 WD-45 |
Posted By: Charlie175
Date Posted: 06 May 2010 at 10:58am
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I used a Cub 1811 (hydro) to mow for 20 years with no issues. I think a gear drive will outpull a hydro of the same weight due to power loss in the hydro ------------- Charlie '48 B, '51 CA, '56 WD45 '61 D17, '63 D12, '65 D10 , '68 One-Ninety XTD |
Posted By: Steve in NJ
Date Posted: 06 May 2010 at 11:06am
|
From what I've read, the Panzer had a 8 3/4 Chrysler rear end in it. Quite stout for a lawn mower! I wouldn't think there would be a lawn mower engine no matter how large and powerful to break that rearend.... lol!
mailto:Steve@B&B - Steve@B&B
|
Posted By: rich
Date Posted: 06 May 2010 at 12:42pm
| Is the. B110 the same as a simplicity 2210, I thought it was but I have a 10 hp briggs |
Posted By: john(MI)
Date Posted: 06 May 2010 at 2:14pm
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Think I would go with a 5015. I don't think it's over 20 since my 5020 is just barely, and if you got a four wheel drive model you would beat everybody! No modifications necessary, just go stock! ------------- D14, D17, 5020, 612H, CASE 446 |
Posted By: tbran
Date Posted: 06 May 2010 at 6:09pm
|
guys that run the AC's (simplicity) in the B series or the 700 series take out the bevel gear box and replace with a superior or other right angle gear box, use pulleys with a c belt as stated above on a gear drive unit and replace the rear axle with a solid shaft. Local rules may not let this be done. Stock trannys are only good for about 25 -30 hp long term. If one wants to show the colors, there are web sites that specialize in cub cadet special built tannys, clutches and axles - these will last and ac be put under what ever sheet metal you choose. . |
Posted By: DREAM
Date Posted: 06 May 2010 at 9:09pm
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Just wondering about the old(60s to early 70s) Sears garden tractors. I had a 1973 ST-16 with a single cylinder Tecumseh OHV engine. It had a manuall 3-point hitch lift. I plowed old ground(had to bush hog scrub pines about 2" in diameter to clear land) with a single 14" plow with turf tires and fluid. I had to lean back on the lift handle some to get the plow in the ground right, but it did a great job. Plowed about 8" deep, and didn't spin out much. This tractor had a solid cast iron transmission/transaxle with dual ranges, cast outer axle tubes, and 5-bolt hubs on one-peice axles. I would think that this transaxle would be plenty stout, along with the rest of the tractor. You would just need to beef up the belt drive, or put on a right angle gear box and shaft drive it with a clutch system.
Has anyone tried pulling with these?
|
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 06 May 2010 at 10:08pm
|
I've seen a Panzer at a show, but never on a pulling track, so I couldn't tell you what to expect, but the smaller automotive differentials, where allowed, are prevalent in any application where they'll fit. Typically, you're getting a stronger carrier. Dream- that Sears unit was definately a tough bugger, and the OHV Tecumseh was, in many ways, ahead of it's time... I have same engine on my Miller Bluestar welder. It ALWAYS comes down to rules... no matter what the situation, it's all about the rules... and there's two rules about rules: You can't win if you're caught and disqualified for breaking the rules... and You can't win if you don't push the very limits of the rules. And while I've been known to hook up to a sled with both garden AND full-sized tractors every once'n'a while, I've never done competetive pulling. I've built a tractors for doing draft work, pulling trees, locomotives and railcars, wierd implements, and other purposes, but not for competetive pulling, never hooked up to a sled for any reason other than being able to put a machine under a load, and try my hand at beating the track, and the sled... and of course, the sled beat me every time. ;-) |
Posted By: firebrick43
Date Posted: 08 May 2010 at 10:10am
| My father restored maybe 50 cub cadets over many years as a hobby, any gear drive one that was purchased was immediately striped of its trans axle for sale to pullers, the other parts went to resurrect hydro models. If you go to a tractor pull, even the john deere and other brand mowers will typically have a cub rearend, sometimes the rear, frame, and front axle. They will just put their favorite brand sheet metal on. |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 08 May 2010 at 11:36am
|
Good- Do to the airflow being lousy, cast-iron (square-end) factory mower decks are poor by modern standards, but they were incredibly tough and effective for their time. Later stamped-steel decks are substantially better, but metal had to be thinner and softer to accomodate the stamping process. They're still stouter, thicker decks than most others of the time. During the early '70's (before the stamped decks came about), the best deck designs came from companies that made fareway mowers... the big Toro, Howard Price, Woods. Once airflow concepts trickled to the home market, that all changed... I think the big commercial Simplicities really started the wave, and Gravely really pushed it into the consumer market. The Cub Cadet hydrostat driveline's biggest weakness is the cross-pin on the engine drive coupler. Gear drive's biggest weakness is again a pin on either the clutch drive or gearbox end. Many guys, not knowing, replace these pins with conventional roll-pins, when they NEED to be a Spi-Rol pin (a piece of high-tenstile spring steel with several turns wrapped into a pin), hence, the engine's power shears them readily, tearing up the shaft and bore for future problems. Note that the spi-rol issue shows up in MANY garden-tractor applications, so this problem isn't limited to any one brand of GT, and extends to implements as well. It is also more prevalent in high service-factor, high-power/high-traction applications, so larger single-cylinder engines will break them faster than even larger-displacement multi-cylinder engines. Must guys either correct them properly, or use industrial U-joints. My IHCC loader runs SKF U-joints and hardened pins for that reason. Steering slop is the result of lots of use, and eventually proves to be a limiting factor of steering angle. Many garden tractors of the vintage used the same ROSS worm-sector steering system, and all used tie-rods and drag links. Careful inspection, proper rebuild, repair, and adjustment solve most of those problems. The converse, is siezed components, which is either caused by no use or maintenance, or use of incompatible greases in fittings. Mixing lithium, sodium, or molybdenum greases results in saponification- greases ionically recombinding to form something akin to 'stone'. This is typically followed by somone 'forcing' the steering, and causing damage to other innocent components. As for being good for 'only pulling', that's a statement made of passion, not logic or experience. All garden tractors intended for 'ground-engaging implements' have many uses... they are, after all, built with the intention of being worked hard. I have a Johnson Workhorse loader on my 'mutt', and there are some pretty substantial hand-fabricated parts and a whole lotta ballast to make it pick and carry 500lbs, but the transaxle and frame is actually bone-stock. It's a shame, but suffice to say that nowdays, most products are made to be 'sold' rather than worked... and while prevalent today, that same concept DID exist 30 years ago. In all cases, it's all a matter of picking the proper tool for the job, and realizing that tool's limitations. Likewise, when doing competetive pulling, it is particularly necessary to know those limitations, as you WILL find 'em... because if you don't, you won't be competetive. |
Posted By: Jordan
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2010 at 7:18pm
| Just wondering if a 912 shuttle shift would be a good puller? |
Posted By: 427435
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2010 at 11:31pm
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As another posted, find a manual transmission-----not a hydro. Too much power loss. Then read the rules carefully. If 2 cylinder engines are allowed (or allowed in some classes) try and find an Allis 920 or Simplicity 7790. These were only made in 1984 and 1985 and had a 2-cylinder Lombardini diesel engine. It was conservatively rated at 18+ hp. But it has an injection pump that can be adjusted (big smiley). Find a gear drive 916 to start with and learn the driving, tire and weighting tricks and then swap the diesel into it. ------------- Mark B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel, GTH-L Simplicity Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not. |
Posted By: SHAMELESS
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2011 at 3:15am
| get him an AC 920 diesel! |
Posted By: Dusty MI
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2011 at 8:05am
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I have a rather old Simplicity for sale. I'm in Florida for the winter and not 100% but I think it's a 3114 4 speed Shuttle, single cylinder Briggs engine. Dusty ------------- 917 H, '48 G, '65 D-10 series III "Allis Express" |
Posted By: Fred Olsen
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2021 at 10:35am
| I want to share with you the catalog of tractors, there is a lot of useful information and characteristics https://tractorid.com/" rel="nofollow - , I am sure you will find answers to your questions. |
Posted By: AC720Man
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2021 at 9:10pm
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Interesting thread before my time on the forum, I always wanted to know if anyone pulled a 720 before. At 1,300 lbs I always thought they would be stout since I feel they are built very well even though they were a hydro. Even if limited to a single speed, 1st gear in full forward hydro should produce some good power IMO. ------------- 1968 B-208, 1976 720 (2 of them)Danco brush hog, single bottom plow,52" snow thrower, belly mower,rear tine tiller, rear blade, front blade, 57"sickle bar,1983 917 hydro, 1968 7hp sno-bee, 1968 190XTD |
Posted By: AC720Man
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2021 at 9:17pm
And yes it should be in the garden tractor section, I didn’t put it here. Just responding to an interesting thread.  ------------- 1968 B-208, 1976 720 (2 of them)Danco brush hog, single bottom plow,52" snow thrower, belly mower,rear tine tiller, rear blade, front blade, 57"sickle bar,1983 917 hydro, 1968 7hp sno-bee, 1968 190XTD |
Posted By: Gary Burnett
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2021 at 6:29am
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The old MTD garden tractors with the drive shaft and the fiber clutch would seem to be a good choice,also the small Bush Hog garden tractors with basically the same set would be good.I've run both and never slipped the clutch on either. |
Posted By: DiyDave
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2021 at 6:42am
Best pulling tractor, I ever owned was a Gravely 816. Hadda twin pancake Onan 16 motor, mounted in the rear. I pulled a hahn westport 42 inch core aerator with it, for years. On some hills I would turn around, and sit on the hood, to keep the front end down! Don't know how it stacks up, weight-wise, but it was a bullet-proof unit, weakest part were the welds in the steering gear. ------------- Source: Babylon Bee. Sponsored by BRAWNDO, its got what you need! |
Posted By: HudCo
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2021 at 10:17pm
| ihave a cub cadet puller with a 27 hp kohler v twin waiting for some b112 sheet metal but there insnot a garden tractor pull within a thousand miles from me that i know of |
Posted By: Steve in NJ
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2021 at 7:41pm
Here's Jo Jo's B110. She rips down the street once in a while with it... LOL! ------------- 39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife |
Posted By: Steve in NJ
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2021 at 7:54pm
Speed Racer... LOL! ------------- 39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife |
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2021 at 9:07pm
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dang Steve there ain't a whole lotta daylight between the tires and fenders !!!! ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: shameless dude
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2021 at 9:54pm
| i gits contacted every year from folks that wanna buy my AC garden tractors for pulling. they all ussually pull Cadets |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 07 Mar 2021 at 3:49pm
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That's because they're looking for AC sheetmetal....  Dave's note about the rear-engine Gravely being quite a puller, it is, on account that it has very little weight on un-driven wheels. Again, I'll refer to the Wismer-Luth traction prediction paper. Harold identifies with clarity the factors which determine tractive effort. Here's a synopsys: 1) Weight of the machine: Heavier machine will pull more... provided 2) Highest possible amount of weight is resting on DRIVEN wheels 3) Rolling resistance is lowest (pronounced 'large diameter tires') 4) Contact radius is maximized (most tire surface in contact with the ground... provided 5) tire 'climb chord' (the height at which the ground surface contacts the tire... i.e. if it's sunk down to the hubs, basically all of the tractive effort is going towards trying to climb straight up, not forward) The only reference to 'horsepower' is the amount required to overcome the limitations above, and once slip occurs, how much more power must be added to cause an incremental increase in drawbar pull. So on a 'puller', there's no part where horsepower matters until you can convert it from a spinning motion, to drawbar tension. a 120hp engine will be essentially useless on a tractor chassis where 90% of the weight is sitting on the steer tires, and the drive tires are a small diameter. Likewise, having a 23hp engine trying to pull a belt that doesn't have enough friction surface to survive the power of a 15hp engine is pointless... and putting 27hp twin into a transaxle whose tubes deflect and fracture under the same forces that an 18hp twin, is simply increasing the cost of the hobby. There are very few garden tractors that actually have transaxles that were designed for an agricultural field tractor. The Cub Cadet is one of those. Doesn't make it perfect, but that assures it'll be heavy, and it is... and they're hard to hurt as a result. I'm good at hurting drivetrains... I've twisted off three axleshafts on my Loader-Mutt. Yep, it's a hydro... yep, it's got a Honda GX660 under the hood... I have LOTS of ballast on the back, tires are full of pink antifreeze, there's lots of iron hanging inside the wheels, and I'm not the least bit shy about asking the Mutt to do a ghastly deed... so even the Cub's svelte rearend is in peril. This most recent time, when the axle shaft twisted off (right at the base of the splines, btw), it managed to drop a chunk in the spiders, then get enough action on the diff casting to snap the web loose on one side. Most of the time, puller-guys end up fracturing the differential carrier... so their favorite mod is to use the 7" Chrysler (from a Volare or Dart), as it's an easily doable mod. I didn't happen to have a 7" Chrysler... but I DID have a 7.25" Ford Limited Slip from a '92ish Mustang. I also had a 35-spline Dana 60 full-floater that'd been robbed of it's ring, pinion, and diff carrier, but the shafts and outers were good, so Loader Mutt is in process of getting that LSD, along with a pair of axle tubes that'll have ANOTHER layer of steel around the outside (thick wall tubing outside thick wall tubing) and that limited-slip. And it'll never see a pullin' track... at least, it'd never compete... because it'd never pass ANYONE's rulebook... RE engines- doesn't matter what kind, if it was built for a garden tractor, it'll work. The K-single is like any other engine- it's just a matter of cubic inches, or cubic money. I've seen a K301 turning 8500rpm and yielding 55hp on a dyno. I was NOT standing close, and if I was pulling, I wouldn't bother competing against someone willing to spend that much. For me, it's not about the machine, its about the operator. I'd rather watch a dozen 10-year-old kid hook up and try with a bone-stock anything (especially if it's several kids, all pulling with the same tractor) than watch 30-to-50-year-old-men with nitro-gulping forged-assembly tens of thousands on tap roll something spotless out of an enclosed trailer. My only preference, is that if a kid is gonna go out and pull, that he not be impeded by a weakness of the machine. He or she shouldn't be impeded by fact that the machine is slipping a belt, or to light to pull, or just plain old set-up-wrong. ------------- Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest. |
Posted By: HudCo
Date Posted: 08 Mar 2021 at 9:48am
| steve thats the best looking sheet metal they had . dave that is right on about the kids that want to try and have fun and learn i would much rather be involed with that than the snob that just went out and bought a bunch of high dollar stuff , they arnt the real biulders the " run what a brung" guys are the real builders and winners |
Posted By: Steve in NJ
Date Posted: 08 Mar 2021 at 7:04pm
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Yer' right Mike! I always loved that B series sheetmetal. I'm putting together a "fat tired" Big 10 with the hydro lift that I got from my pal Fred in PA a few years back. It should look pretty cool like Jo Jo's... ------------- 39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife |
Posted By: Orangeisgreat190
Date Posted: 09 Mar 2021 at 5:36am
| I have seen a 1960s Simplicity Landlord with the old Briggs walk right past Cubs at a few local pulls. He was still running all AC Powertrain. He told me to completely surround the axle tubes with hose clamps everywhere you could and get them tight. He claimed this really improved the strength of the tubes. I also saw an Allis at one pull that had a Wheel Horse 8 speed rear end mounted behind the bevel gear box. Owner claimed that the Wheel Horse 8 sped with 1 1/8 inch axles was stronger than a cub rear in stock form. I own some Wheel Horses too, and those are some really tough units in stock form. |
Posted By: HudCo
Date Posted: 09 Mar 2021 at 11:15pm
| i have a wheel horse 855 its a tough little tractor and the first one that i owned |