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P51 Mustangs

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Thad in AR. View Drop Down
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    Posted: 10 Aug 2024 at 1:53pm
Last week we were working on job on the lake.
The owners hav a nice spot for lunch done near the water.
As we were having lunch 2 p51 Mustangs flew over several times.
Was quite a sight.
Quite often we see C130’s and modern fighters do maneuvers over the lake but this was a first.
These two belong to Stuart Walton.
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Hubert (Ga)engine7 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hubert (Ga)engine7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2024 at 2:38pm
Those are some great aircraft. And a nice way to enjoy lunch also. Did they put on a show for you?
Just an old country boy saved by the grace of God.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fjdrill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2024 at 3:20pm
Got to ride in Alabama Ramma Jamma. A P51 owned by friends of mine. It was a joy. We did Cuban 8's and some rolls and extremely fast. They were doing a photo shoot with a AT-6 Texan (#1 airplane of AEROSHELL Aerobatic Team) as photo platform. It was an experience I'll be forever grateful to the late Tom Henley for.    
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Thad in AR. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thad in AR. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2024 at 4:18pm
Originally posted by Hubert (Ga)engine7 Hubert (Ga)engine7 wrote:

Those are some great aircraft. And a nice way to enjoy lunch also. Did they put on a show for you?

Hubert they did put on a show. Was a lot of trees and hills so we couldn’t see it all but it was awesome. The sound was unlike any other I’ve heard.
Reminds need me of an old WW2 movie.
Hope to see them again.
I don’t know a lot about planes but I was mesmerized.
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steve(ill) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2024 at 5:30pm
WOW... Seeing a P51 fly over severa times would SURE be a SHOW !! ... and the SOUND is definitely different than a F16 !! Wink
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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DMiller View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2024 at 6:39pm
P51s were the Sports Cars of Aircraft!!  Love listening to them scream as go by!!
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Walker View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Walker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2024 at 7:51pm
I would have been trying to find out if they were British spec'd with Rolls Royce Merlins or Allison's doing the screaming?? For the old brain archives.
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Thad in AR. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thad in AR. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2024 at 6:01am
Originally posted by DMiller DMiller wrote:

P51s were the Sports Cars of Aircraft!!  Love listening to them scream as go by!!

Me too. It was quite a thrill.
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Thad in AR. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thad in AR. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2024 at 6:03am
Originally posted by Walker Walker wrote:

I would have been trying to find out if they were British spec'd with Rolls Royce Merlins or Allison's doing the screaming?? For the old brain archives.

The info we got off of flight radar said a P51 D.
Don’t know if that tells you anything or not?
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DMiller View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2024 at 6:37am
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_P-51_Mustang_variants

Appears all variants from the first 1940 design had superchargers A thru D, Merlin engines or Packard built copyright Merlins were in all Alphabet frames B- D
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AC7060IL View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AC7060IL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2024 at 7:30am
Thad in Ark, thanks for sharing. I would have loved to be there with you just to hear the P51’s engine sound.

A little tidbit. Initially, England’s Merlin manufacturing approached Henry Ford for mass production of their replacement engine for the newly under powered P51 Mustang. Ford turn it down. At the time, a smaller local company, Packard, took a crack at reproducing the Merlin engine. The Merlin engineer’s (Rolls-Royce?) were surprised to test that the Packard prototype engine not only met, but exceeded their high tolerances.

Edited by AC7060IL - 12 Aug 2024 at 2:00am
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DougG View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DougG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2024 at 9:04am
Dont know about the P 51,s- but our office/yard in up by Lambert airport and when the fighter jets go in for landing they are right above us; you can see their faces and they put on little shows sometimes; then we done a job in Warrensburg by Scott Airforce base the stealth bombers would fly over, they would get so low and do maneuvers, was pretty neat

Edited by DougG - 11 Aug 2024 at 7:40pm
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DMiller View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2024 at 10:40am
Dad worked Mac Air until 90, retired, used to as we were kids take us out to Lindbergh at W End of runways before the major extension and Tunneled Lindberg under those.  Was a Viewing Parking area which by DHS Standards today was TOO CLOSE!!!  Watched several F4 series launches at full afterburn, saw the first F15s as he wanted us to see them.  Then during the Most Stoic days I have ever seen my Dad, explained we 'Needed' to go and see, First up F4 E Units, Iron Cross on Wings and Fuselage, pop said NOT A WORD as they taxi'd out then came over us at that lot.  Next occasion, four F15s, Again with the Iron Cross for German Luftwaffe, a few months later could see him as we waited clenching and working his jaw and the four F15s came off, Red Ball of Japan Rising Sun on them, I do believe he actually had a tear in his eyes as they launched.

He was NAVAIR Pacific WWII, saw some horrors on Guam, Eniwetok and Kwajalein.  NOT EVER did he explain more than that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug 2024 at 4:41pm
Originally posted by AC7060IL AC7060IL wrote:

The Merlin engineer’s (Rolls-Royce?) were surprised to test that the Packard prototype engine not only met, but exceeded their high tolerances.


Not 'high tolerances', Performance figures.  The Packard Merlin met, and exceeded the Rolls' performance capabilities... REGULARLY.

Tolerances are a different story- that has specific manufacturing meaning.  When you manufacture a wrist pin, that pin must fit the small end, and piston correctly.  If it's a pressed-in pin, or shrunk-on pin, the dimensions of the pin, at a given temperature, must be LARGER than the hole it's going into, lest it will not hold itself in place.  The contraction/expansion circumstances going from sitting in storage at -40F to 'war emergency power' at ground level in Arizona determines how much 'interference' there is in an 'interference fit'.

Packard's building of the Merlin engine was an incredible operation of engineering... they couldn't just take Rolls-Royce's drawings and make parts.  Rolls would make the parts to a certain size, and then manually FIT each one... BY HAND.  That means you put the pin blank in a lathe, and turn it 'till it gets to a certain size, and then when it's time to press it in, you measure, then 'finish' it (a centerless grinder, or a reamer, or both) until you have the size necessary for fitment, at whatever temperature you're assembling.  In winter, it was a different temperature.  This was a typical way for British industry... Americans would say they 'build it close, then file to fit'...

'The American System' used a method called 'Tolerances'... that meant, you made a part to a drawing that had a SIZE, and that SIZE included a + and - factor.

I.E.   1.033 +.001"/-.003" at 63F.

That meant when you manufactured the part, it came out of the process being no larger than 1.034, and no smaller than 1.030", at 63F.

Because of this, 'CLOSE' tolerances would be  something like 1.033 +.0019/-.0011 at 63F...
So no larger than 1.0311", and no smaller than 1.022"


Tolerance that is 'high'... means parts can fit a much wider range of variation.  That means they fit 'looser', which can, in many cases, make for easier assembly and better operation... however, tolerances that are 'low' fit a much tighter requirement... again, in many cases, some mechanisms perform better under tighter fitment.

The part that was the most massive undertaking, was Packard's engineers taking the SAMPLE Merlin, dismantling it, and creating a full set of engineering drawings, in SAE units, including all dimensions AND TOLERANCES.

Then they manufactured tooling to cut all these operation to yield a bolt-together operational, good performing engine.

If you look at the wartime videos of Rolls-Royce's manufacturing centers, you'll see all sorts of fancy machine tools there, with very familiar names... because we SENT them machines and tooling systems to accellerate their production processes.

As for final performance, the improvement between the Brit Rolls, and the Packard Merlin, was partly due to material quality (and availability), but also in the RATE that engines could be placed in airframes.  The AVRO Lancasters required FOUR merlins for every ONE spitfire... so by making large volumes of Packards for use in allied aircraft, the larger volume kept bombers in the air, without sacrificing fighter and ground-attack roles.  This turned the Merlin pattern into an unbeatable platform.

Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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DMiller View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug 2024 at 4:59pm
Dad ended his career on the AV8B Program, the Brits Learned NOTHING from WWII, Not ONE COMPONENT in a Harrier AV8 if removed would fit another aircraft, required Hand Fitting.  McDonnell changed that up, ordered the base Airframe, then Fitted them ALL HERE to a standard Spec 'Tolerance', next the RR Pegasus engines, used Common BICYCLE CHAIN to drive the Exhaust nozzles, Failed OFTEN and Miserably, was changed to a More Robust system.  Gauges were bought US Manufacturers, ALL Std Size, Instrumentation all Same Same and could swap from one to any aircraft.  Damned Fine way to run a RR.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote klinemar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Aug 2024 at 6:11am
Britain and the U.S. shared many mechanical aircraft components. The Merlin engines were not fuel injected. American aircraft engines were,they had throttle body injection. The Allison engine that originally powered the A36 Apache was a good engine and created as much power as a Merlin,but the Air frame had no room for a turbo supercharger which most American Aircraft used. The Army Air Force demanded turbo supercharger. The Merlin engine used a two speed mechanical supercharger. Performance between fighter aircraft between types such as the P38,P47,F4U and F6F was quite close with the P51. Some models performed better at higher altitude some had a better turn rate. Overall speed was in the 400 mph depending on combat loading. We can debate till he'll freezes over the best fighter,but the fact remains they were all good enough to win the war!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 2024 at 8:17pm
Could NOT be better said...   There's many who will pit the Allison V12 against the RR and Packard Merlin, and there's places where each outshine.  Being able to run variable stages of boost was extremely important when dealing with varying altitude.  Study the power/altitude/fuel consumption curves and one will find that a horsepower number, all by itself, means nothing.  Some suggest that putting a pair of Merlins in the P38 would have resulted in a better performing aircraft... but look at the boost management and power profiles, you'll find that there would be no improvement.  The A36 Apache was a case-in-point, as a ground-attack platform, the Allison was at NO disadvantage.

The circumstance, and the application in which it was used, determines what the end result IS for a given theatre application.  The P51's greatest strength in the mid-era European theatre, was it's ability to extend bomber escort far beyond the length of it's performance contemporaries.  In it's early Allison configuration it had a performance envelope that disfavored high-altitude operation, but liquid cooling and the low mounted radiator made it a poor choice for ground-support, where it's air-cooled counterparts would swallow ground-fire, spit out damaged cylinders, and just keep flying.

I love 'em all... I even love the BAD ones, as they were lessons-learned.

As for build, there's nothing wrong with hand-fitment techniques, when you're building them in a one-at-a-time philosophy, but when there's a war to be fought, one has to accept that there's a combat life-expectancy of a weapon, and that life expectancy can be counted in seconds, minutes, or single-digit hours... and if it exceeds that timeframe, it is most fortunate.  Frequently, that life expectancy comes to it's end when the crew aboard experiences the limits of their life-expectancy.  When the machine protects the crew well, both survive longer...  But the short reality, is that if the platform expires but the crew survives and returns safely, the crew's experience has increased... and at that point, a new airframe for them will return them to the fight.

New airframes then become the focus of combat success-  it makes the war an industrial-economics exercise, where manufacturing, logistics, and forward-operations support are every bit part of the battle.  In that respect, it was the employment of what the Brits referred to as 'The American System', that made such a huge difference.   They fought HARD to persevere amidst arial attacks (aircraft and V-weapons), and accompished some amazing things with their tenacious grit.  We chipped in our industrial capacity, which wasn't just building stuff... it was the entirety of our industrial sphere, from raw materials to finished equipment, to technological development, and conjoining our efforts with those of our allies.  The British invented some really fantastic things, but couldn't PRODUCE them under their circumstances, but WE could... and for many things WE produced that OUR armed forces thought little of, THEY took them, modified and polished them into something really spectacular, and showed US how to IMPROVE them.  The combination teamwork, pooling of resources, and melding of technology was ultimately the superlative force.
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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