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need electrical advice

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trace View Drop Down
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Joined: 01 Aug 2012
Location: N.W. Iowa
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote trace Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: need electrical advice
    Posted: 08 Jan 2020 at 10:07am
replacing old wall oven. 240v from house two hots and a neutral, from new oven two hots, neutral and ground. my thinking is that i need a new 4 wire line from panel. have read about hooking ground and neutrals together and attach to box but not recommended. what ya think??? getting an electrician around here about as bad as appt with a medical specialist.
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jaybmiller View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2020 at 10:40am
I'd probably run new 8/3(red/blk/wht/gnd) from panel to stove just to be safe and 'code compliant'.
Ground and neutral ARE connected at panel, supposed to be the only place..but yeesh.. I've seen wht and gnds  together in applicances.
I 'think' the deal is .IF... the neutral (wht) becomes disconnected, power flows through the ground wire...a bad thing ??

I'm sure some wire puller will chime in soon though....Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chaskaduo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2020 at 11:24am
This is a adapter for $76 including shipping, there may be less expensive ones out there.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dave in PA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2020 at 3:27pm
I am not recommending this, for legal reasons!  Look at the instruction with the oven.  The 3 wire with ground is the best.  BUT some units will show you how to hook up with the older 2 wire with ground as well.  The difference is the ground is the ground, the 4th wire is a isolated ground, for the unit chassis.  3 years ago, when I did mine, the book showed how to put a enclosed strap in place to cover all bases on this issue.  
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trace View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote trace Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2020 at 5:05pm
they do show with mfg info to hook ground to neutral and ground and delivery guys said that's how they hook em up. wish i could find an electriian up here.
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Dave H View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dave H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2020 at 6:44am
My drier and electric stove are hooked up as Dave described.

As I foggily recall, the delivery guys said that they were not authorized to hook up/wire a three pronger.  Well there went another trip to Lowes to buy the cord and I think it had wiring instructions with it.  Confused

Running new romex and all the pfarting around  that goes with it is not in my vocabulary.  Sides, how many years did the three wire 220 set ups serve our needs?  Wink
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trace View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote trace Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2020 at 7:07am
the wall oven is hooked up direct in a junction box, no plug. surprised the heck out of me that the delivery people would hook up, big liability these days. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Coke-in-MN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2020 at 9:54pm
Seems I have all 3 wire 50 Amp plugs on welders stove and such - then I also have wires to stove run through conduct EMT so there is my ground back to panel - Same in shop the 50A recepticals are all run in EMT .
 Have 2 electric kilns 230 V, 50 A the wife bought for her business , they came with 4 prong cord caps so I left them and replaced the receptacle and used the EMT as the ground 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2020 at 5:46am
A pro will KNOW but I doubt using 'EMT as the ground' is legal let alone safe....
It'd be interesting to find out though.

OK I looked it up and yeesh , it IS considered a ground !!!
Man that is scary as WHO tightens up EVERY screw, once a year to ensure  a low resistance path  to the panel ground ??

I've had bad grounds on riders....a bad or open ground running 240 could be fatal !!


Edited by jaybmiller - 12 Jan 2020 at 8:53am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote trace Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2020 at 9:51am
finally got electrician lined up to change out our panel and run new 220 lines within the next month. those guys busy round here. lot of em independents that can pick and choose their work.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2020 at 5:37am
up here ,they have to pull permits ( 2 X $$$) and have inspections ( 2 X $$$$$) THAT opens up a huge 'can of worms' since once a permit is pulled WHOLE HOUSE is inspected !
From the meter to the furthest outbuilding that has power from the meter....
Everything that is not up to CURRENT code ,HAS to be replaced !

All those whose house is 100% up to code ,please raise your hands.....

hmm... I don't see any.....Cry

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2020 at 6:38am
Ground is not Neutral, Neutral carries the return current ground is just that least chance saving grace that the neutral does fail or a stray current invades the supplied device metal structure there is a alternate path. Conduit will carry that. If in any doubt can run a Secondary Ground to hard metal structure at the appliance and do just as well.


My younger brother took over our Dad's lake of the Ozarks vacation house, has a dock with lighting, ALL EMT Conduit with Hard Ground to shore, Lake Ozark city council decided HAD to have a Separate at the bank Hard ground rod, that lasted a year, then required a GFI for the ENTIRE Circuit to the Dock in house box, that as well lasted a year, then a Separate Disconnect at the dock, then a change in that to a Automated GFI control, it goes on and on and on and for all reality any if not all the devices can fail from age, rot or just because and a Lake Execution by Electrocution can still happen, a Bad use of a Electrical cord can still cook someone or set afire the dock or a boat or plastic/nylon/wooden/cloth materials swimmers are using.

Goes that same level of insanity for House or business electrical, saw it at the power station where GFI breakers were considered perfect until they found could fail so went to Ground Fault supply breakers to those panels where they too could fault even failing to remain closed under Normal operations, then they just expand upon expansion trying to stop ALL injuries which is a No Brainer Not gonna happen as some man made component WILL fail, or a human will fail or a human will intentionally bypass. There is only two absolutes, Death and taxes where even in death the dead are taxed.

Edited by DMiller - 13 Jan 2020 at 6:39am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2020 at 8:16am
up here, pull a permit and ALL bedroom receptacles MUST be replaced with new 'arc fault' versions...$$$$$ and of course since that 'office' was or could become a bedroom, those receptacles must be replaced as well.....
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trace View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote trace Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2020 at 9:06am
no permits here, live in the country and that one of many reasons why.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shameless dude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2020 at 10:11pm
I don't thinks you want my advise on this, if I gives you any, someone will pop up and SLAP me silly! lol
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote desertjoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2020 at 3:33am
Originally posted by trace trace wrote:

no permits here, live in the country and that one of many reasons why.


 You might outa check with your county inspector bout the " In The Country" requirements,,, That's the way it USED to be out here "in The Country" where I live. You used to not be bound by "City Laws" and most people were moving outside of city limits to escape the rules and regs of city life.
 Till bout 15 years ago and the county adopted ALL of the City and State regulations,,,,and,,,there went the neighborhood,,,,,,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote trace Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2020 at 7:53am
electrician will know about permits if needed, been in business for a long time in this area. they will do the job to code. don't need the gooberment to tell us that. lol.
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Dave H View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dave H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2020 at 8:55am
In the kontry where I live,  inspections, lectricians, et all re not required.

I would a had those things hooked up and running long long ago.  If the code police become active, someone else will have to contend with them.

Got a good one for you.  i had REA run the drop in when establishing this homestead bout 20 years ago.  I asked them about running the juice from their drop to the service panels.  The reply I got was once they put the drop with 200 amp breaker they are out of there.

Nice huh.  Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Coke-in-MN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2020 at 1:52pm
That EMT or Rigid conduct has been used for ground for many years - the part of making sure neutral is bonded to panel and the EMT is all tight at joints is important . 
 Many things in Electrical Code have changed over the years , from Ground Fault, to Now ARC Fault - 
 But like a friend who had to have a hard wired smoke alarm in system but - the units have a small leakage or draw which will trip a ground fault breaker - some things require a work around . 
 Remember the EMT is a ground - not a Neutral - then a neutral is not always ground either - 
Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
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