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Hay and other feed stuffs

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Kansas99 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kansas99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2021 at 8:15pm
Originally posted by Ray54 Ray54 wrote:

Kanas you want a R calf petition to end the check off BS? I hear you we need regulation on the monopoly in packing business not looking at every cow t**d to see if it will get wet if it rains. 


Send it I’ll sign it and next on my list is the KLA(Kansas Livestock Ass.). I have to pay those pr!cks too because every feedlot is a member. I’ve had more than a couple go arounds with some feedlot managers about getting my money back from them and it can be done but the beef check off is another story.
If you had a dollar for every time socialism worked you'd have zero dollars, ironically if socialism did work you'd still have zero dollars.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kansas99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2021 at 9:15pm
Originally posted by allisbred allisbred wrote:

Kansas99,   Why do you use alfalfa in the mix for you finish steers? Alfalfa here is premium money and was wondering if you needed that extra protein or benefit from sugar content? I guess I am wondering how much benefit using alfalfa over poor quality hay?


I only grow cattle at my place to finish I send them to a big feedlot (50,000hd+). I was only using that 80/20 ration as a easy way to figure finishing a fat. Believe it or not 20% alfalfa will give them enough protein and scratch to keep their rumen working. Now the other ration with high moisture corn etc. is what the finish yard used. The advantage there is the energy to digest is a little less for high moisture vs. cracked dry corn. Steam flaked is second best to high moisture which most yards use steam flaked corn. The reason they use steam instead of the high moisture is you pay as you use it and bill it. Where as high moisture is better but out here they pick it in say September and by March the feedlot has paid all the farmers for there grain that won’t be totally billed until September again. Doesn’t seem like much but where I feed they put up 7 million bushels of high moisture and that’s a lot to swing and carry on the books for up to a year, especially on $6 corn. It’s still better but lots of interest and that’s why 90% of yards run flaked. If you go to YouTube there’s a video of them filling a silo with high moisture corn at Ford Co Feeders, that’s where my finish cattle are at. 28-33% moisture corn rolled and packed into a bunker silo. If I ever get out of this tractor and and planter I’ll find it nd post it.
If you had a dollar for every time socialism worked you'd have zero dollars, ironically if socialism did work you'd still have zero dollars.

Make yourselves sheep and the wolves will eat you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tbone95 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2021 at 7:51am
Originally posted by Kansas99 Kansas99 wrote:

Ray, there’s soymeal in my grain.😉 Ration in the bunk will run close to 13% which is more than enough for weaning calves. In the past I’ve fed nothing other than WDG and protein is low maybe little under 11% cattle do ok but don’t utilize all the energy in the ration. They aren’t quite as fleshy so they end up converting better on the finish ration but the cost of gain growing is more even though the ration costs less than a no grain ration.   Finish yard will use DDG for protein but we’re talking a animal that is there to add meat and fat so protein need isn’t as much as one adding frame.

Creep feeders are still used a little out here but yearlings on grass that go to the sale will get a big discount if they smell like they were on a creep. It just kills their conversion and nobody likes high cost of gains.

Back you mentioned vaccines and yes pretty much all the fly weights I buy to grow come out of Dublin GA and the death loss can get ugly but I figure that at 5% death loss is normal. What they cost local I can lose 10% and still be money ahead.

Here was my program this year that worked excellent. Only change over any other year was the shots back east were changed. So the very day they show up in the yard in GA, and I’m talking a 3 day buy and worked every time each set comes into yard until the load is completed, they get enforce 3, one shot bvd, la300, and a myco vax that my vet has made for SC/GA cattle (he buys out of SC). They usually ship Thursday morning show up here Friday morning. Then Sunday is day 1 they get pyramid 2&5 mixed, 7way, couple vet vaccines, implants, cut, exceed, that’s considered day one. Then day 5 is pyramid 1&3 mixed and diluted with 100cc sterile dilute and myco booster, the day 10 is pyramid 1&3 mixed no diluted, more vet vaccines boost, Zantac, then day 17 is pyramid 2&5 mixed and vet vaccine boosted(nothing special just his own myco and pasterella). This program got a got a 5% pull rate with under a 2% death loss. Incredible results. The only difference from last 10 years was the enforce and one shot back east instead of tsv-2. I can’t buy them locally and lose zero and have less money in them.

Sorry still using phone probably didn’t make sense. Been long week milo in before corn furrowing and wheat harvest. Actually been working on this post for 3 hours.
WOW that's a lot of vaccines!  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kansas99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2021 at 9:33am
Tbone I’m a anti-vaxxer.

Actually it’s not as much as it looks. They are always mixed together. Meaning pyramid 1 is mixed with pyramid 3 and 2&5 same thing. That means 2 50 dose bottles mixed do 100 hd. I cheat it a little so it will do 120 hd load with no waste. Basically why we mix them is to cut the bsrv(?) to half strength but always holding every thing else at full dose ibr etc. This program was developed by 3 vets in Meade KS and it’s tried and true. It’s used on millions of shipped in cattle from back east yearly.

I never run that many rounds of shots on my home raised. They get a couple rounds.   

The difference last fall was we gave enforce 3 and one shot back east instead of Tsv-2. I still can’t believe how good the health was. Pull rate half with lower death loss then locally bought cattle. My brother got cattle from ga too with same shots there but only gave draxxin, presponse, 7-way back here and had good results too. So for now the enforce and one shot seem to be the cat’s meow but that will change.
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Make yourselves sheep and the wolves will eat you.
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Tbone95 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tbone95 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2021 at 10:41am
What does "pull rate" mean?  Sick and separated from the rest?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kansas99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2021 at 1:33pm
Yes. What % I doctor. They usually are put back with rest of pen unless they weren’t lining up at feeding. If they don’t eat but come to the bunk at feeding time then I put them back. If they go to the sick pen they’re usually in bad shape maybe 50/50 chance of survival.

I limit feed intake for first 17 days. Basically a 20 minute clean out twice a day. Never over 2% as fed and my ration is wet so they are getting less than half of what they want to eat. Don’t matter what they look like if they don’t line up and eat they’re sick.

Whenever I pull more than 2% in a day on any pen I’m starting I will call the vet and talk about what I’m seeing. It usually ends in what we call a rescue operation which if they aren’t too bad means excel, vit b, sulfur drench and +1 I won’t discuss 😉 to the whole pen then skip a day and do it again. Now if they’re bad we’ll do the same but 3 consecutive days and if a vaccine day falls in they get those too. Also if I see any cocci signs we’ll drench with corid as well. Cattle out of the southeast are terrible with cocci sometimes. I helped that by having a starter pellet made with decox and a full treatment level ctc (aeromyicin (sp) that I feed the first 21 days (cocci cycle) of course I have to skip a day once in a while account of the ctc 😉. Vet says can’t feed too much. 😆

Basically I will have in medicine and starter pellets plus a little feed $80/hd starting them. That’s in the first 3 weeks then you add cost of feed to grow them. It sounds high but considering this year I bought them out of the southeast for over $150 a hd less then locally they become much cheaper in the end. Also to buy 350-450# calves locally would take forever to fill one pen. The locals wean bigger calves than that and most fly weights are junkers other than a few late calves.
If you had a dollar for every time socialism worked you'd have zero dollars, ironically if socialism did work you'd still have zero dollars.

Make yourselves sheep and the wolves will eat you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tbone95 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2021 at 3:01pm
Last year marked the first time in my LIFE, 50 years around beef cattle, that we had a critter die slightly before age 1.  If it last a week, it lasts.  Then last year we lost 2.  The first one was a calf that got a nasty infection at birth, and seemed like we pulled her out of it, but she never thrived.  So when she died, even though it was the "first one ever", kind of wrote it off as she never was right.  

Then about 2 weeks later, another one died!  WTF?!  Had an autopsy done on it......the one vet tech neglected to send the samples in, so no results.  And yes, she got fired over it. 

Then had one die this year.  Cocci.  Turns out, the feed store was selling me the wrong type of Rumensen, and my bad as well for not catching the difference.

I liked it better when none that age died!!!Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kansas99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2021 at 10:55am
They probably were using bovitec. They’ll tell you how much better it is but it does nothing for cocci. Ok for a finish yard but on weaning calves any nutritionist worth their salt will tell you rumensin is a far better product for just that reason.

The decox in my pellets will line their stomach to keep the cocci from attaching but if they’re already getting out of hand when they show up we have to feed corid and drench with it if you start to lose any.   Corid is better because it fools the cocci into thinking it’s vit b and the cocci binds to it and can’t get away then they it out. That’s why we always doctor with vit b. Cocci will suck them out of vit b. If you ever here the term “brainer” which is a calf that acts like it’s nervous system is all screwed up it’s a nervous cocci. It basically set in on their brain and depleted of vit b.

All cows carry cocci believe it or not so that’s where calves get it then spreads from there. Funny thing is a low stress healthy calf won’t be affected and that’s why you don’t see much trouble in your own calves. That 22 hr truck ride when they miss momma is a whole different story.    

I can have my own weaning calves right beside or in same pen with a bunch that are breaking with cocci and it doesn’t matter they won’t break. To this day I’ve never treated any of my own.
If you had a dollar for every time socialism worked you'd have zero dollars, ironically if socialism did work you'd still have zero dollars.

Make yourselves sheep and the wolves will eat you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ray54 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2021 at 3:29pm
Wink This is a bit different direction than I may have thought when I started this, BUT I AM LEARNING a lot. So keep going.

Never really been around cattle on the end of a long trip. There was one fellow that who grow up cowboying and ended up with a electronics company that had equipment on the first moon landing. That had 100 cow ranch here in his old age. His son tried buying stockers from the local auctions after his dad died. Which was a slow motion train wreck. So a vet and others got him to buy 1 iron calves on video auction then process them right off the truck with 8 different shots. This worked so good Junior had to sell this little ranch and buy a much bigger one. Which was all the way in New Mexico so no idea how that went.

In the good old days (60's to 7o's) mostly everybody really in the cow business sold yearlings. California was the home of the first big feedlots so the yearlings did not get long ride ether. I want to say 74 was the year my dad sold weaned calves rather than yearlings. Only the last 10 years that I could see much difference in the price for true weaned calves over ones that did the weaning on the truck. 

I think it was 2014 the local auction less than 20 miles away closed/moved. They still have a receiving yard for those like me that cannot put a pot load together. But we also got a new player in another yard a 100 miles away. There are 4 auctions all about 2 hours truck time from me. In normal years I am trying to wean and give another round of shots before taking them to auction. But another kick in the ass this year as state university report is out, 80% LESS feed than normal on the range. On advice of my favored auction we gave a second round of 8 way and BVR and loaded them  2 weeks latter to ball on the truck. So some nice cows went down the road too. May next year be better.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote allisbred Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2021 at 9:15pm
To all— this has been very educational as I guess we are still doing beef the same way from at least the 90’s when it comes to fats, other than shots. I have always wondered how big feed lots can process so many animals and keep their health. I would love to see us improve on the mid weights. Great topic!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote plummerscarin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2021 at 9:46pm
So back to the hay, another question. Assuming no rain is there a point where hay has laid too long on the ground before baling and would be bad for hay quality?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote allisbred Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jun 2021 at 5:44am
The short answer is yes. General rule of thumb is the quicker it dries down to 15%, the better hay quality you will have. There are several reasons for bad quality— over mature when cut, weeds/trash in field, rain damage, not allowed to breathe after cutting and heated up while laying on ground, baled wet, dew, lack of nutrients, leaf shatter, (more common in alfalfa being worked when too dry), the variety/type of hay.

As to the number of days, that will vary. If it looses color, the quality is going down from optimum. Not saying this is bad hay, just there are losses.

Edited by allisbred - 13 Jun 2021 at 5:55am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kansas99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jun 2021 at 6:34am
Ray, the auction that you speak of that is a receiving yard now to put together pot loads, is exactly what they do back east to get the cattle out here.  Where I get them in GA is simply a gathering yard, they work the country and small auctions then bring the cattle in and sort for size and quality to fit the orders they have from us buyers.  They then put the cattle in "grass runs" after they are giving any shots I or someone else would want.  They start buying monday and usually ship thursday, then friday they clean their facility, then once a month on a saturday they sanitize the whole place.  The original buyer down there I started with over a decade ago passed on a couple years back and now his brothers 2 son in laws are running it and they're nice guys doing a good job just like before.  I don't know where they find all the cattle but they usually ship 7-14 loads a week out here.  All of them will go to TX,OK,KS,NE.

The big feedlots out here usually only take weaned yearlings (feeder size cattle)  If you send a load of say straight #400 sucking calves to them get ready for a train wreck(10-15% death loss).  They just aren't set up to deal with sucking calves,  they will take them if you send them but they will never buy them for themselves.Wink  They try to find a back ground yard to start them for them, then ship them in to just feed after there healthy.  I think the biggest problem they have is finding a sick one in time.  I feed twice a day with a feed truck into the fence line bunk and that is where I get tag #'s for sick ones, never going into the pen.  That will spoke them and when they run you don't have a prayer of finding a sick one and if you do see a sick one when they're spoked it's way too late, calf probably 2 days past saving.  The big feedyards still use horses to ride pens and 50 years ago every cattlemen had a horse but today 90% of them use a sideXside or 4 wheeler, so those horses now days spoke them, sure after 3-5 days they are used to the horse but if you don't have a handle on them in those first few days your train wreck is already started.  I actually use a 4 wheeler to pull sick ones and they just stand there and look at me, now if I walk up to the bunk on foot they will spoke and scatter for the first few days, so that's why I set in the feed truck (looking thru binocularsLOL) to get sick ones tag #'s.

Interesting that you brought up the start of big feedyards,  Brookover Feedlot in Garden City Ks was the first commercial yard that started feeding straight corn to finish cattle in 1951.  Everyone said it wouldn't work, but old man Brookover had irrigated corn to get rid of in GC so that's what he did.  Until then they were ran on grass for 2 years to finish.  That changed history, today all most all beef is finished that way and 200,000+ a day are slaughtered.  This coutry would get really hungry without it.  This country can produce corn like no other and cattle can consume it like no other,  its just a great way to feed a nation.  Brookover feedlot is literally in Garden City, it set on the NW corner of town and houses and businesses are on the south, east and west side of it.  It has a great big sign along the highway that says "The one that started it all"  now there are 100's of commercial feedyards in western KS and major packers all over.  Just west of Brookover's IBP put in a packing house in maybe late 60's early 70's that was still the largest in the world in the early 90's when I was in college, at that time it could slaughter up to 8,000 hd a day.(It's the Tyson plant that caught fire couple years ago)  Today I don't think it runs that many head with regulations days off and cleaning shifts, maybe 5-6,000. I should add cattle are finished bigger and the plant probably still puts out the same pounds of meat but on less head.

You know I often have wondered about old man Brookover, was he that smart or that lucky when he finished his first pen of cattle on corn?  I suppose a little of both, but there's no denying what he did changed history.

Here's a link to Brookover's website.  That picture of the baby on the homepage with the bins in the background, I have no idea how they kept houses out of it because they are literally on the other side of those bins.  I guess camera angle?LOL

https://brookover.com/


Ray, there's one thing about Garden City,  all that stuff that those liberals cry about stinking and polluting, they say bring it on we'll take!!  The town has it's own aromaWink but I think it must be the smell of money because they have a bank on almost every street corner in town.LOL


Edited by Kansas99 - 13 Jun 2021 at 6:48am
If you had a dollar for every time socialism worked you'd have zero dollars, ironically if socialism did work you'd still have zero dollars.

Make yourselves sheep and the wolves will eat you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kansas99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jun 2021 at 4:00pm
Ok,  here ya go.  The first video is shot at one of Ford Co. Feeders' bunkers, I think they have 5 maybe and I think I told you guys wrong, I think they feed around 7 million bushels of corn with around half being high moisture.

I put the second one up because, its pretty fitting to this site.  It's Stegman harvesting out of Spearville KS picking high moisture corn for Ford Co,  They run 3 Gleaners and the owner is a 3rd generation custom cutter and they've ran nothing but Gleaners for three generations, I know the owner and he is a great guy.  Also at the end they are at the bunker and there is a old FiatAllis wheel loader filling the roller.




If you had a dollar for every time socialism worked you'd have zero dollars, ironically if socialism did work you'd still have zero dollars.

Make yourselves sheep and the wolves will eat you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ray54 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jun 2021 at 8:07pm
Kansas 99 your taking me back to my Cal Poly days. The learn by doing school, Agricultural Business Management major. Head professor of the department Edgar Hire had Special Problems Class. He wanted to know the profitability of cattle feeding. Me, myself, and I, got to go thru the library and and the USDA weekly or maybe monthly market reports on the price of feed ingredients and stocker and fat cattle. Starting as soon after WW2 a data was published right up to 1978. I forget what all was factored in, but the ration used was changed a bit as different commodities where reported in different times. 


Dr Hire was a child of the Dust Bowl, raised in Colorado, PHD from Cornel in New York. Had a brother that made a bit of money feeding cattle in the 1940's. As he put it his bother was the only guy in town not already so over extended at the bank.  So they loaned him some money and he a feed out a lot of steers for a profit.

Maybe some of you have memories of dad or grandpa feeding steers in the corn country. But I was told that was the way it started, a winter job for corn farmers. And hope beef sells better than corn. His contention that California had the first 10,000 head feedlots more because of bigger banks. A chain bank like Bank of America had so much more money than the one town one bank of the mid west. Always warned not that other places did not figure out the big feedlots just took time to get the money available.

Now I am kind of wishing I that old pile of papers. To a degree it seemed like busy work at the time. I got a good grade, but did not know how happy the good PHD was till years latter. Someone local but 5 to 10 years younger started asking me about that paper. Said the prof bring it out and showed it off ever so often.

About the video's are they packing the high moisture corn in like silage would be. I though the corn was to dry for that and you need the blue silos for that.



Edited by Ray54 - 14 Jun 2021 at 10:40am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ray54 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jun 2021 at 11:14pm
Originally posted by plummerscarin plummerscarin wrote:

So back to the hay, another question. Assuming no rain is there a point where hay has laid too long on the ground before baling and would be bad for hay quality?

Not that we see how long it can lay out in the field. Wink But grain hay the most common out here gets left weeks and weeks. Since no rain and rocks most don't even own a crimper. So the rule of thump on oat hay never try to bale in less than 10 days, 14 being far more common. The next rule bale it with dew on it. You knock the seeds heads off and turn it into powder, having most of the leaves blow away. With only 2 to 4 hours of baling weather most days. Not uncommon to get hot periods with no dew for a week or more. 

The alfalfa guys would run one swather and 3 balers to keep cut acres and baled more or less even. With the ground being damp they can bale most nights. But of course they need to get hay out to put water back on it. The last ranch doing 100's of acres of alfalfa just quit alfalfa in favor of growing pistachio nut. More dollars return per gallon of water pumped.   

I know of a micro climate here where a 100 to 200 acres of oat hay lay from May till Sept. Told from June until days get shorter just no dew in that area.

We loose green color but that is not that important if you have sugar in the stem. More art than science but if the sugar is right animals lick it up to the last little straw. Better than 90% of hay is cut with a swather here goes into a windrow an never raked. So the bottom has a good bit of color most times . But grain can turn color fast and most thing hay that has dough at cutting so most seeds end up being able to germinate makes the best hay we can get. We are not looking for the best protein content looking for energy from sugar/starch in the plant. Looking for the most valve out of dry land conditions. For mother cows supplement proteins with tubs or alfalfa.

My personal hay making was greatly influenced by my father that was a horse lover first and foremost.  Feeding grain hay with grain was all the horses got. If being rode daily maybe a little can full of grain as you brushed and saddled them.

But the ground is very dry before we normally cut hay as well so other than color and what seeds gophers and squirrels eat  it doesn't change.    


More or less the same thing with the pastures dry and brown from June until Oct, Nov, even Dec before it looks green again. So any rain in the dry time of year is more harm than good. Had thunder storm in July a few years ago got 4 inches and more over night, dried out so fast nothing tried gowning. The dry feed was not degraded as bad as one might have thought. But still not good for anything, other than starting fires.


The more I look at other places that make dry hay in 3 or 4 days the grasses of choice don't have the big hollow stem like barley, oats, and wheat it would seem.


Edited by Ray54 - 13 Jun 2021 at 11:21pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tbone95 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 2021 at 7:02am
"Feed it and hope beef sells better than corn".....

....That's kind of the way things go around here, every year, and I still can't guess right!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ray54 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 2021 at 10:56am
Wink Taxing my rememberer Cry and cattle feeding is a chancy thing. If I am remembering correctly just about a 50/50 thing. But as it was "average prices "for feed and cattle, so some smarter Wink than average do much better.  LOL
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