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Lars(wi) 
Orange Level Access
Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Location: Permian Basin
Points: 6622
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 Topic: Calling all electricians
Posted: 04 Aug 2022 at 6:22pm |
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Two questions;
Is stranded wire acceptable if run inside metal conduit?
How do I cure ‘open ground’?
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I tried to follow the science, but it was not there. I then followed the money, and that’s where I found the science.
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Jordan(OH)
Orange Level
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: Celina, OH
Points: 1545
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Posted: 04 Aug 2022 at 8:12pm |
Need more info.
Stranded bare?
What has an open ground and how did you determine that?
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steve(ill)
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Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: illinois
Points: 77648
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Posted: 04 Aug 2022 at 8:21pm |
"most" wire run in house or business is solid if under #10 gauge.... Heavier wire is stranded so it can be formed and bent.... VERY fine wire is not normally used, but would be possible......... look at automotive wire.. it is all stranded..
OPEN GROUND means your ground is BROKEN ... or you have a HOT- Neutral and never had a ground ?
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Lars(wi)
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Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Location: Permian Basin
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Posted: 04 Aug 2022 at 8:51pm |
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I purchased one of those plug in ‘outlet testers’ with the three lights. The outlets in my detached bldg., indicated open ground. The sub panel has two hots, and a neutral coming in.
The wiring in the bldg., is all in steel tubing conduit. I replaced the 50 amp plug marked welder(I don’t have a welder) with a 30 amp RV plug, so I can plug in my RV while it’s in the bldg. The RV plug(30 amp) uses one hot, one neutral, one ground. In this sub panel, it is wired that all grounds, and neutrals are hooked directly to the one bus bar. I don’t see evidence of a grounding rod outside, not saying there isn’t one, I just haven’t seen it.
The person that originally wired this bldg. used 12 ga stranded wires, unfortunately all the same color.
Edited by Lars(wi) - 04 Aug 2022 at 8:52pm
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I tried to follow the science, but it was not there. I then followed the money, and that’s where I found the science.
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steve(ill)
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Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: illinois
Points: 77648
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Posted: 04 Aug 2022 at 9:01pm |
your WELDER was 240v.... HOT- Neutral- HOT .......... Is your 30 amp RV plug suppose to be 120v or 240 V ? HOT- NEUTRAL- GROND is a 120v setup...
You have 3 wires for the welding plug so you can change it to either 240v or 120v by moving wires inside the breaker box.
Look at the duplex plugs on the wall... do they have TWO wires to each thru the conduit, or 3 ( HOT- NEUTRAL)... or (HOT- NEUTRAL- GROUND)
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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DaveKamp
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Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Location: LeClaire, Ia
Points: 5637
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Posted: 04 Aug 2022 at 9:04pm |
Just for clarity-
You removed a 50A/240v receptacle (welder) and replaced it with a 120v/30A RV plug?
If you didn't reconfigure the wiring at the panel, you now have 240v going to a 120V receptacle... DON'T PLUG THE RV IN...
The 240v/50A uses two hots (one +120v, the other -120v), and one ground.
The 120V/30A uses one hot, one neutral, and one ground.
You're getting an outlet tester indication of 'open ground' because you've got the recepticle wired dangerously wrong.
Here's a fairly good writeup:
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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steve(ill)
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Location: illinois
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Posted: 04 Aug 2022 at 9:04pm |
on the duplex wall plugs, you put the BLACK wire on the GOLD screw and the WHITE wire on the WHITE screw........ If you have the same color wire on everything, i would guess he switched a wire here or there and the "tester" is showing that......... is there a THIRD wire in each conduit for GROUND ?? ( or it could be OK.. and you have the RV PLUG wired wrong)..
NOTE... the BLACK wire is always on the right side of the receptacle...
Edited by steve(ill) - 04 Aug 2022 at 9:12pm
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Lars(wi)
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Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Location: Permian Basin
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Posted: 04 Aug 2022 at 9:32pm |
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I reconfigured the wires to accommodate for the RV plug. Removed the two pole breaker, and installed a single pole 30 amp breaker for the RV plug.
The other outlets in the bldg have only two wires in the conduit, I assume they used the steel tubing conduit as the ‘ground’. My plug in tester indicates the correct polarity on all the outlets, just ‘open ground’.
Edited by Lars(wi) - 04 Aug 2022 at 9:35pm
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I tried to follow the science, but it was not there. I then followed the money, and that’s where I found the science.
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steve(ill)
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Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: illinois
Points: 77648
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Posted: 04 Aug 2022 at 9:37pm |
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thats the problem is they only have two wires and they are the same color... Look at the drawing above of the duplex plugs... BLACK always on the right... The WHITE and GROUND ( GREEN) wires are "common" as you said , inside your breaker box.... What would happen if you switched the BLACK and WHITE wires on ONE of the duplex plugs above ? ........... thats what has happened to you.. sometimes you have the HOT on the left and sometimes have the HOT on the right.. hard to tell with one color... and you should check to see that the GROUND SCREW is actually connected to the steel box / conduit.
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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steve(ill)
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Location: illinois
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Posted: 04 Aug 2022 at 9:40pm |
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You can use it this way, as has been done in the past, but you dont have the SAFETY GROUND setup.... If you have a plastic case skill saw or hand drill that only has a two prong plug, then that is OK... If your using an extension cord or other equip with a 3RD PRONG ground... it really is doing no good.
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Lars(wi)
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Location: Permian Basin
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Posted: 04 Aug 2022 at 9:50pm |
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I haven’t opened up every outlet yet. Fortunately all the outlets run on one long side of the bldg. They used all red colored wire(sigh). Its possible the steel conduit separated some where along way. Thats why I like to run romex even inside conduit.
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I tried to follow the science, but it was not there. I then followed the money, and that’s where I found the science.
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Jordan(OH)
Orange Level
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: Celina, OH
Points: 1545
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Posted: 05 Aug 2022 at 2:09am |
A ground rod is not what provides a ground. Sounds like the ground and neutral need bonded in the panel.
And romex in conduit, just why?
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DMiller
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Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Location: Hermann, Mo
Points: 29441
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Posted: 05 Aug 2022 at 4:35am |
ALL 120v Electrical outlets, Black to Brass, White to Chrome screws, green or just copper ground to the Green screw.
Need to set a ground rod and a ground connection to a buss bar in the electrical box, can be 'Bonded' to the Neutral in most cases just recommended to separate Green and White to the separate bars regardless. Then will have to have a N and G wire at each outlet.
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jaybmiller
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Greensville,Ont
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Posted: 05 Aug 2022 at 6:20am |
re: Look at the drawing above of the duplex plugs... BLACK always on the right.
Unless the receptacle is mounted 'upside down' ( was code here once......sigh) ....
1) yes you can use stranded,as long as same gauge(size) as solid was.
2)problem with conduit runs 'open ground', the screws to tighten sections 'loosen' = no ground. I ran a separate green wire ground in the garage conduits.
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DMiller
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Location: Hermann, Mo
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Posted: 05 Aug 2022 at 7:10am |
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All the outlets in our home and my outside structures are Right Side Up with Ground Lug at top. Industrial standard.
Black or brass screws to Left Side.
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steve(ill)
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Location: illinois
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Posted: 05 Aug 2022 at 8:39am |
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again, the small TESTER is saying " bad ground".... that can be no ground thru the conduit, or it can be HOT and NEUTRAL wires were switched on ONE receptical... Thats why they make the romex BLACK and WHITE instead of TWO RED... Switch the wires and you get "BAD GROUND" ..
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Lars(wi)
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Location: Permian Basin
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Posted: 05 Aug 2022 at 10:12am |
 DMiller wrote:
All the outlets in our home and my outside structures are Right Side Up with Ground Lug at top. Industrial standard.
Black or brass screws to Left Side. |
The house we owned in Midland was that way, ground lug on top. There was a couple of outlets that I turned the plug 1/2 way around to better accommodate the appliance plugged into it. But still kept it black wire on brass terminal, white wire on silver terminal. The house we own now has almost all outlets with the ground lug on the bottom.
Edited by Lars(wi) - 05 Aug 2022 at 10:13am
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I tried to follow the science, but it was not there. I then followed the money, and that’s where I found the science.
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steve(ill)
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Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: illinois
Points: 77648
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Posted: 05 Aug 2022 at 11:50am |
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The National Electrical Code (NEC) doesn't require a certain direction. The NEC allows outlets to be installed with the ground plug hole facing up, down or sideways. It's up to you, there is no standard electric outlet orientation. So that means there really is no such thing as upside down outlets.May 23, 2022
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Lars(wi)
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Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Location: Permian Basin
Points: 6622
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Posted: 05 Aug 2022 at 2:07pm |
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I’m old enough to remember outlets in homes that were not ‘polarized’. The only place you saw a grounded plug was in the garage.
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I tried to follow the science, but it was not there. I then followed the money, and that’s where I found the science.
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steve(ill)
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Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: illinois
Points: 77648
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Posted: 05 Aug 2022 at 6:59pm |
In the early 1950s the NEC required NEW houses to have ground plug in the laundry room and garage and where every it could be WET..
By 1969 they estimate that about half of houses had grounded plugs.... and NEW large appliances came with the grounded plug..
In 1974 they required ALL new construction to have grounds ( inside the house also)..
Edited by steve(ill) - 05 Aug 2022 at 7:02pm
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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lockheedt33
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Joined: 05 Sep 2011
Location: Waterman, IL
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Posted: 05 Aug 2022 at 8:35pm |
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When I was reading up on NEC code requiring my outbuilding I ran across the grounding requirements for outbuildings. The only place ground and neutral should be tied together is in the main panel. In sub panels they should be separated with each sub panel having a local ground rod. Wiring between the main panel and sub panels should be 4 conductor for 220 panels. 2 hot, 1 neutral and 1 ground.
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1941 AC B
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