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Valve Clearance ?? |
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FREEDGUY
Orange Level Access Joined: 15 Apr 2017 Location: South West Mich Points: 5391 |
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Posted: 11 Jul 2020 at 6:51pm |
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I have a close friend that bought an Audi 4 cylinder engine car(I don't know the year) that broke it's timing chain and incurred MAJOR valve train damage . He insinuated that in the "old days", there was such a thing as "high interference/low interference" heads??? He just can not understand why an engineer would design an engine with NO room for a "chain" malfunction
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Alberta Phil
Orange Level Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Alberta, Canada Points: 3635 |
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Quite a common thing with today's engines. Many have the cam or cams driven by a timing belt which is supposed to be replaced at a certain mileage. Failure to do so will sometimes result in a broken belt and if it's an "interference" type engine, much damage can result!! I don't get that type of "engineering " either.
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PaulB
Orange Level Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Rocky Ridge Md Points: 4384 |
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[QUOTE=FREEDGUY]
I have a close friend that bought an Audi 4 cylinder engine car(I don't know the year) that broke it's timing chain and incurred MAJOR valve train damage . He insinuated that in the "old days", there was such a thing as "high interference/low interference" heads??? He just can not understand why an engineer would design an engine with NO room for a "chain" malfunction [/QUOTE
It's known as "Planned Obsolescence"
Engineers plan for things to break to boost sales of new vehicles and repair parts and to justify their existence designing the wheel over and over again. Luckily The engineers at Allis Chalmers were not of that mindset, however Henry Ford has been quoted that everything should not last any longer than the warranty. When everyone was making Jeeps for WWII he wanted ever single part that left any of his factories to have the "FORD" logo imprinted onto them so he could not be charged for replacing something that some other place made. |
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If it was fun to pull in LOW gear, I could have a John Deere.
If you can't make it GO... make it SHINY |
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DrAllis
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 19364 |
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Not any different than some older technology V-8's that have a timing chain and fiber camshaft gear wearing out. I have seen bent valves from that happening.
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plummerscarin
Orange Level Access Joined: 22 Jun 2015 Location: ia Points: 3060 |
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Luckily The engineers at Allis Chalmers were not of that mindset
I discovered the hard that at least the 170 is an interference engine. |
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DMiller
Orange Level Access Joined: 14 Sep 2009 Location: Hermann, Mo Points: 29235 |
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Only engines that were truly Non Interference and Not designed for that reason, flatheads. Any diesel engine breaks a cam drive or a valve hangs in a guide looking at severe damage.
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FREEDGUY
Orange Level Access Joined: 15 Apr 2017 Location: South West Mich Points: 5391 |
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My friend did say that "only" the exhaust valves got bent (8), but he replaced ALL 16. Why would only the exhaust valves get damaged ??
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DMiller
Orange Level Access Joined: 14 Sep 2009 Location: Hermann, Mo Points: 29235 |
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Engines tend to be on Down stroke for Intake, Up stroke for exhaust, belt breaks, gear fails and most times the intakes are already closed/closing. Not much momentum on a cam to keep it rotating.
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FREEDGUY
Orange Level Access Joined: 15 Apr 2017 Location: South West Mich Points: 5391 |
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Thanks DMiller
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jaybmiller
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Greensville,Ont Points: 21333 |
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Why do 'engineers' design stuff like interfernece engines ?? Because they get paid to AND THEY don't ever have to work on them ( or PAY to have them fixed) !! We could (should ?) have a forum devoted to 'engineered booboos', 'cept it'd take up ALL the space on Darrin's harddrive !!
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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
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FREEDGUY
Orange Level Access Joined: 15 Apr 2017 Location: South West Mich Points: 5391 |
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, my friend said that the engineer that came up with the "IN TANK" fuel pump should have been castrated on the "drawing" board LOL !!!
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LeonR2013
Orange Level Joined: 01 Jan 2013 Location: Fulton, Mo Points: 3500 |
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Dave you're right about messing things up when you break a valve. Broke one on a 855 Cummins. Got the head, turbo, two inj. one piston and liner. Made a terrible racket. Leon
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Tbone95
Orange Level Access Joined: 31 Aug 2012 Location: Michigan Points: 11380 |
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Hmmm.....I'm no engine guru. But aren't there some very sound thermodynamic reasons for the "interference" design? Such as, to get the air/fuel charge at the correct compression, if there were more room at the top, there would have to be more air/fuel there to be at the same pressure. Then some things like air/fuel mixing efficiency in a larger volume. Seems a lot of interweaved little issues there.
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FREEDGUY
Orange Level Access Joined: 15 Apr 2017 Location: South West Mich Points: 5391 |
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I was afraid that the "efficiency" (exhaust/pollution) might be a factor. This guy is used to big block truck/racing engines that could survive "minimal" $$$ damage when/if a timing chain/belt broke . Seriously, 4 valves/cylinder ?? This particular Audi does have 1 turbo though,maybe that's the need for that many valves ??
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LouSWPA
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Clinton, Pa Points: 24018 |
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ya beat me to it TBone, many, many times in my life I have said not nice things about the engineer who did this or that, but the reality is his job is not an easy job! There are a multitude of variables with just about any engineering task, cost, performance, appearance, longevity, size, weight, available materials, and, of course, marketing's wishes, to name a few. Yes, that engine could have been designed so that should the timing belt fail there would be no damage, but, at what cost somewhere else? performance? weight? complexity? initial production cost?
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I am still confident of this;
I will see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord; be strong and take heart and wait for the Lord. Ps 27 |
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steve(ill)
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 77237 |
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Yea, i have a 125 cubic inch Allis motor that weights about 300 pounds and puts out 20 HP..... using that same spec, you could build a 400 cubic inch truck engine with NO interference fit that put out a GOOD 75 HP !!!
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Tbone95
Orange Level Access Joined: 31 Aug 2012 Location: Michigan Points: 11380 |
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More valves = more/easier breathing = more performance and efficiency. And yes, more "small" valves are better than just "bigger" ones. |
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FREEDGUY
Orange Level Access Joined: 15 Apr 2017 Location: South West Mich Points: 5391 |
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Thanks Tbone . I happen to run an '05 5.4 Ford F250, can I assume that the "TRITON" refers to multiple valves/cylinder? I bought it used and knew nothing(at THAT time) about that engine but have been learning more about it .
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DMiller
Orange Level Access Joined: 14 Sep 2009 Location: Hermann, Mo Points: 29235 |
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Cams are problematic, cylinder heads on the earlier 5.4s were a disaster where plugs seized hard in the head threads, required special tooling to retrieve and ended with a Plug change to another type. Do NOT ignore engine odd noises that start out minor then grow as the timing chain tensioners were also a issue. Pre 2004 were only 2 Valve, after 04 three valve, Triton has nothing to do with that configuration, Just a Name.
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