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Valve Clearance ??

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FREEDGUY View Drop Down
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    Posted: 11 Jul 2020 at 6:51pm
I have a close friend that bought an Audi 4 cylinder engine car(I don't know the year) that broke it's timing chain and incurred MAJOR valve train damage CryCry. He insinuated that in the "old days", there was such a thing as "high interference/low interference" heads???  He just can not understand why an engineer would design an engine with NO room for a "chain" malfunction Confused
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Alberta Phil View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alberta Phil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jul 2020 at 8:14pm
Quite a common thing with today's engines.  Many have the cam or cams driven by a timing belt which is supposed to be replaced at a certain mileage. Failure to do so will sometimes result in a broken belt and if it's an "interference" type engine, much damage can result!!  I don't get that type of "engineering " either.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PaulB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2020 at 7:29am
[QUOTE=FREEDGUY] I have a close friend that bought an Audi 4 cylinder engine car(I don't know the year) that broke it's timing chain and incurred MAJOR valve train damage CryCry. He insinuated that in the "old days", there was such a thing as "high interference/low interference" heads???  He just can not understand why an engineer would design an engine with NO room for a "chain" malfunction Confused[/QUOTE
It's known as "Planned Obsolescence"
Engineers plan for things to break to boost sales of new vehicles and repair parts and to justify their existence designing the wheel over and over again. Luckily The engineers at Allis Chalmers were not of that mindset, however Henry Ford has been quoted that everything should not last any longer than the warranty.  When everyone was making Jeeps for WWII he wanted ever single part that left any of his factories to have the "FORD" logo imprinted onto them so he could not be charged for replacing something that some other place made. 
If it was fun to pull in LOW gear, I could have a John Deere.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2020 at 7:53am
Not any different than some older technology V-8's that have a timing chain and fiber camshaft gear wearing out. I have seen bent valves from that happening.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote plummerscarin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2020 at 3:01pm
Luckily The engineers at Allis Chalmers were not of that mindset
I discovered the hard that at least the 170 is an interference engine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2020 at 3:21pm
Only engines that were truly Non Interference and Not designed for that reason, flatheads.  Any diesel engine breaks a cam drive or a valve hangs in a guide looking at severe damage.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FREEDGUY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2020 at 4:48pm
My friend did say that "only" the exhaust valves got bent (8), but he replaced ALL 16. Why would only the exhaust valves get damaged Stern Smile??
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2020 at 5:15pm
Engines tend to be on Down stroke for Intake, Up stroke for exhaust, belt breaks, gear fails and most times the intakes are already closed/closing.  Not much momentum on a cam to keep it rotating.
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FREEDGUY View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FREEDGUY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2020 at 5:41pm
Thanks DMiller Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2020 at 5:49pm
Why do 'engineers' design stuff like interfernece engines ??
Because they get paid to AND THEY don't ever have to work on them ( or PAY to have them fixed) !!
We could (should ?) have a forum devoted to 'engineered booboos', 'cept it'd take up ALL the space on Darrin's harddrive !!
3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FREEDGUY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2020 at 6:03pm
Originally posted by jaybmiller jaybmiller wrote:

Why do 'engineers' design stuff like interfernece engines ??
Because they get paid to AND THEY don't ever have to work on them ( or PAY to have them fixed) !!
We could (should ?) have a forum devoted to 'engineered booboos', 'cept it'd take up ALL the space on Darrin's harddrive !!
LOLLOLLOL, my friend said that the engineer that came up with the "IN TANK" fuel pump should have been castrated on the "drawing" board LOL !!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote LeonR2013 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2020 at 8:25pm
Dave you're right about messing things up when you break a valve. Broke one on a 855 Cummins. Got the head, turbo, two inj. one piston and liner. Made a terrible racket.   Leon
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tbone95 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jul 2020 at 7:24am
Hmmm.....I'm no engine guru. But aren't there some very sound thermodynamic reasons for the "interference" design? Such as, to get the air/fuel charge at the correct compression, if there were more room at the top, there would have to be more air/fuel there to be at the same pressure. Then some things like air/fuel mixing efficiency in a larger volume. Seems a lot of interweaved little issues there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FREEDGUY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jul 2020 at 6:15pm
Originally posted by Tbone95 Tbone95 wrote:

Hmmm.....I'm no engine guru. But aren't there some very sound thermodynamic reasons for the "interference" design? Such as, to get the air/fuel charge at the correct compression, if there were more room at the top, there would have to be more air/fuel there to be at the same pressure. Then some things like air/fuel mixing efficiency in a larger volume. Seems a lot of interweaved little issues there.
I was afraid that the "efficiency" (exhaust/pollution) might be a factorConfused. This guy is used to big block truck/racing engines that could survive "minimal" $$$ damage when/if a timing chain/belt broke Wink. Seriously, 4 valves/cylinder ?? This particular Audi does have 1 turbo though,maybe that's the need for that many valves ??
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LouSWPA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jul 2020 at 6:26pm
ya beat me to it TBone, many, many times in my life I have said not nice things about the engineer who did this or that, but the reality is his job is not an easy job! There are a multitude of variables with just about any engineering task, cost, performance, appearance, longevity, size, weight, available materials, and, of course, marketing's wishes, to name a few. Yes, that engine could have been designed so that should the timing belt fail there would be no damage, but, at what cost somewhere else? performance? weight? complexity? initial production cost?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jul 2020 at 10:04pm
Yea, i have a 125 cubic inch Allis motor that weights about 300 pounds and puts out 20 HP..... using that same spec, you could build a 400 cubic inch truck engine with NO interference fit that put out a GOOD 75 HP !!! Wink
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tbone95 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jul 2020 at 8:13am
Originally posted by FREEDGUY FREEDGUY wrote:

Originally posted by Tbone95 Tbone95 wrote:

Hmmm.....I'm no engine guru. But aren't there some very sound thermodynamic reasons for the "interference" design? Such as, to get the air/fuel charge at the correct compression, if there were more room at the top, there would have to be more air/fuel there to be at the same pressure. Then some things like air/fuel mixing efficiency in a larger volume. Seems a lot of interweaved little issues there.

I was afraid that the "efficiency" (exhaust/pollution) might be a factorConfused. This guy is used to big block truck/racing engines that could survive "minimal" $$$ damage when/if a timing chain/belt broke Wink. Seriously, 4 valves/cylinder ?? This particular Audi does have 1 turbo though,maybe that's the need for that many valves ??

More valves = more/easier breathing = more performance and efficiency. And yes, more "small" valves are better than just "bigger" ones.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FREEDGUY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jul 2020 at 7:09pm
Thanks Tbone Wink. I happen to run an '05 5.4 Ford F250, can I assume that the "TRITON" refers to multiple valves/cylinder? I bought it used and knew nothing(at THAT time) about that engine but have been learning more about it Confused.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jul 2020 at 7:16pm
Cams are problematic, cylinder heads on the earlier 5.4s were a disaster where plugs seized hard in the head threads, required special tooling to retrieve and ended with a Plug change to another type.  Do NOT ignore engine odd noises that start out minor then grow as the timing chain tensioners were also a issue.  Pre 2004 were only 2 Valve, after 04 three valve, Triton has nothing to do with that configuration, Just a Name.
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