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small block chevy into a WD45 loader tractor

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Steve in NJ View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve in NJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Feb 2020 at 8:31am
The only reason I was looking around for someone that made one was because I didn't have the time to fab one myself. I'll be retiring come the middle or end of the summer, so I'll just fab up one myself. I've fabbed a lot hotrod parts over the years, no reason why I can't fab up an flat piece of steel for a plate after I make a cardboard template. I have a couple SBC bellhousings kickin' around. Somethin' down the road...
Steve@B&B
39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sugarmaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Feb 2020 at 9:06am
Sploke,
 I envy the work the custom guys do on cars, trucks, and tractors. My old brain has a hard time just getting them back to stock condition. I don't think I have the artsy vision some guys do, or the mechanical skills to machine my own basic parts needed for a custom build. Oh I can cobble some stuff together and slap some paint on it occasionally but that's about my extent. Maybe someday a hot rod custom tractor? I think the lowered B would be really neat, for shows. Good luck in your endeavors. Sounds like you have the skills and most of the things you need. 
Regards,
 Chris


Edited by Sugarmaker - 29 Feb 2020 at 9:07am
D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
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Steve in NJ View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve in NJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Feb 2020 at 11:16am
Ahhh, give yourself more credit than that Chris! Heck, you work on your Tractors often, there's no reason in the world why you couldn't build a little custom Tractor yourself. Just gotta' take yer' time, do a little engineering, and before you know it... viola! custom Tractor!!  I'm not gettin' any younger either, with a bad back, bum shoulder, and the usual aches n' pains, but I ain't lettin' that bring me to a standstill. It slows me down a little, but still rollin' with it. Gotta' put yer' mind to it man!  Thumbs Up
Steve@B&B
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sugarmaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Feb 2020 at 1:26pm
Steve,
 Thanks for the kick!
Regards,
 Chris
D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
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Steve in NJ View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve in NJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Feb 2020 at 1:51pm
No charge!   LOL!
39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sploke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Feb 2020 at 2:23pm
So, ran into minor snag today....the engine block doesn't fit between the frame rails! It's too wide at the back where the casting bosses for the oil filter and starter are. When I first started looking at this project, someone told me the sbc would drop into place without any frame modifications. Looks like that is inaccurate. I would have to cut about 4" openings on the tops of the frame rails to get the crankshaft low enough to align with the input shaft, and then put on a relocation kit for the oil filter. If this was a parade tractor that would be one thing, but with the added stress of the front end loader I'm a little hesitant to start cutting on the frame. Going to have to noodle on this a bit more.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Feb 2020 at 5:42pm
hmm 'minor' snag...
re:.....someone told me the sbc would drop into place without any frame modifications

...well get 'them' to show you how it's done !!!!

I've got a 'low compression' Buda 4BD153 that'd be fun to 'drop right it'...hehehehehe
3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve in NJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Feb 2020 at 7:38pm
Find a Chevy 292 inline 6. Better known as the "torque monster".  Takes two men and a boy to carry the crankshaft. LOL!  A buddy of mine as one in his 78-79 Mason Dump with the old "granny" 4 speed Saginaw tranny behind it. Let the clutch out in first gear you can walk along side of that thing. What a pisser that would be. I bet that would work quite well in a Tractor.
Steve@B&B
39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife
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sploke View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sploke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Feb 2020 at 9:06pm
Yeah, pretty aggravated. I took measurements off another 350 we have in a car and didn't see the problem, but I was taking dims at the front of the engine and didn't account for the extra width at the back.

Edited by sploke - 29 Feb 2020 at 9:07pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote desertjoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2020 at 3:49am

 Hey Sploke,,,,don't give up, Guy,,,even tho this subject seems to be the BEST KEPT SECRET with A/C tractors,There have been a large number of them already "modified" due to pretty much necessity reasons as yours and even those like Steve in NJ and myself that just cannot or do not want to give up on the Hot Rodding aspect of it.
 When I bought my D14 without a complete engine I also looked far and wide and bothered lots of A/C people for details on an adapter,,,,never mind that there have already been many A/C's with Chevy engines in existance,,,BUT,,,,
."".well get 'them' to show you how it's done !!!!""
 unfortunately Jay's comment is not as easy to accomplish as it sounds because like I said,,,IT IS THE BEST KEPT SECRET in A/C world,,,!!! Those that have already done this modification, seem to just NOT want to share. One would think that some enterprising fellar would engineer an adapter plate(S) and start marketing them and he would not be able to keep with the demand. I know I would buy one just to have it here should I get a line on another A/C.
 I know one fellar up in Nebraska that has a WD that has a Chevy 6 cylinder that I find very interesting but travel circumstances with my wife's health issues prevent me from going up to get it and,,,,and,,,he won't deliver,,,,!!!!!Wink PFFFFtttttt


Edited by desertjoe - 01 Mar 2020 at 3:50am
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Steve in NJ View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve in NJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2020 at 7:26am
Yeah, Joe! What's with that? Seems to be a secret or somethin'. Like I said in an earlier post, we need someone like Fred Wilke that has CNC machines that he could design a program and run off a bunch of adapter plates off like a copy machine.  LOL! Them lazer plazma cutters cut steel like scissors cuts paper. Its amazing to watch them work!
39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote plummerscarin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2020 at 7:34am
I was watching an episode of Full Custom Garage and the builder was installing an Olds? straight eight to a Chevy automatic. He got hold of a company that builds adapter plates for any combination. I don't remember the name of that outfit but you might try looking up that show for the episode "Lost and Found "
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ac fleet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2020 at 10:00am
Just a suggestion,---What I have seen done is to cut the needed slots, then bridge around them with heavy iron and continue on. If you do good welds, this will work on loaders, so it's an option.
Not sure that you will find a vee motor that will fit without frame altering. --- I would cut, reinforce, and weld to make it fit. ---- Just stuff I have done before. I don't go for looks, I go for results, so don't give up on it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2020 at 5:54pm
The diaspora of mentions about power:

A V-8 engine, by geometry, is most practical when using larger bore, and shorter stroke.  It's advantage, is to have twice the displacement, in a short, lightweight crankshaft and short rods that will spin nicely over a wide powerband.  Because of low piston speed and low reciprocating mass, they are excellent for accellerating passenger cars and light trucks.

An inline ALWAYS requires a longer crankshaft... and to keep it short, bore must be smaller.  To increase displacement, the result is a longer stroke, thus longer rods, more reciprocating mass.

Longer stroke, with smaller bore creates a vacuum profile totally unlike a large bore/short stroke engine.  They develop very high runner velocities at much lower speeds, so the torque curve is much fatter at the bottom end.

Your Allis inline four is capable of some incredible torque numbers...  If the puller guys are willing to open their chops just a little, I'd bet you'd find 300 ft-lbs not unusual for a WD-45... and it DOESN'T need to spin fast to do it.

That V8 engine, when placed in continuous duty at 1200rpm, will be good for only about 50hp.  When set up for marine duty (freshwater cooling, 140 degree thermostat, 9:1 compression and 92 RON marine fuel) you'll see them around 100hp at 1200rpm.  The power curve comes up substantially around 2200rpm, and torque starts falling off around 4600rpm.  By 4800, they're usually done, as most marine drives will not tolerate running over 5000rpm for very long.

The Allis engine will, from a tractible power perspective, tromp the V8 right and left, because it's well-up in it's torque curve around 100rpm BELOW idle.

The engine that Steve refers to (the 140 Mercruiser) is referred to as a 'chevy', but it's really an inline iron-block GM industrial 181ci... they never put them in cars.  The most volumnous production was sold to MerCruiser division of Mercury Marine, for use in boats.  The 181 was a successor to the 153ci four, commonly found in the Chevy II and a few others, but also in industrial applications like generators, irrigation pumps, forklifts and mobile machinery.  The 153 was related to the Chevy 230 inline six... basically, identical, but shorter by 2 cylinders.  MerCruiser used the 153 in a more-or-less stock form with it's 120hp marinization, but when Chevy bumped up the 230ci six up to 250 by bore enlargement, Mercruiser took the 153 up to 181, and did some redesign of the cylinder head, which GM applied to their 181 industrial as well.  It was a strong motor, but realize... it was NOT in any way limited to 1800rpm, which is one of the reasons why it can be put in a tractor for 'competition purposes'.

Even with the 181's capacity, The WD45 engine will still out-torque it to 1800.  After that, though, the 181 will start taking over the horsepower battle.

I think you'll find that the 350v8 will need gearing down, and you'll have lots of futzing to get a governor on it.
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2020 at 6:29pm
WD-45 gas peak torque is 196 ft lbs @ 1,000 RPM and 182 ft lbs @ 1800 RPM.      D-17  engine peak torque is 211 ft lbs @ 1100 RPM and 195 ft lbs @ 1800 RPM.  The only real performance difference between them is compression ratio being raised from 6.5 to 1 up to 7.25 to 1.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2020 at 7:23pm
Doc... what kind of torque numbers are the pullers getting out of them?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2020 at 7:26pm
Naturally aspirated ? I'd suspect about double when at 400 cubes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sploke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2020 at 3:47pm
Originally posted by plummerscarin plummerscarin wrote:

I was watching an episode of Full Custom Garage and the builder was installing an Olds? straight eight to a Chevy automatic. He got hold of a company that builds adapter plates for any combination. I don't remember the name of that outfit but you might try looking up that show for the episode "Lost and Found "


Thanks...love that show!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wide Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2020 at 10:59pm
I think a cummins 4Bt is closer to the torque and RPM range of the WD45.
There is a utube video of one pulling.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IBWD MIke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 2020 at 8:28am
Originally posted by wide wide wrote:

I think a cummins 4Bt is closer to the torque and RPM range of the WD45.
There is a utube video of one pulling.
One for sale on Des Moines Craigslist right now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pirlbeck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 2020 at 8:35pm
Originally posted by IBWD MIke IBWD MIke wrote:

Originally posted by wide wide wrote:

I think a cummins 4Bt is closer to the torque and RPM range of the WD45.
There is a utube video of one pulling.
One for sale on Des Moines Craigslist right now.

If you are talking about this one, it is NOT a 4BT Cummins. A 4BT is a 3.9L and this one is a 3.3L.


I actually had that one or another one just like it (from the same guy, he deals in them) at my shop to put in a dozer to replace a blown (hole in block) 4BT and it is a lot smaller then a 3.9L 4BT. 

4BT's seem to have gotten pretty hard to find as of late as the non HPCR engine have not been put in anything for years.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wide Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 2020 at 10:20pm
So that 3.3 isn't a typo.
It's not just a bolt-in replacement for a 4BT,  the block is actually smaller?
Can't swap heads?
 Uses the same bosch rotary pump,.. with a weird controller.
Probably has the HP.
 I wonder what the torque RPM curve looks like.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IBWD MIke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2020 at 8:43am
Originally posted by pirlbeck pirlbeck wrote:

Originally posted by IBWD MIke IBWD MIke wrote:

Originally posted by wide wide wrote:

I think a cummins 4Bt is closer to the torque and RPM range of the WD45.
There is a utube video of one pulling.
One for sale on Des Moines Craigslist right now.

If you are talking about this one, it is NOT a 4BT Cummins. A 4BT is a 3.9L and this one is a 3.3L.


I actually had that one or another one just like it (from the same guy, he deals in them) at my shop to put in a dozer to replace a blown (hole in block) 4BT and it is a lot smaller then a 3.9L 4BT. 

4BT's seem to have gotten pretty hard to find as of late as the non HPCR engine have not been put in anything for years.
That is the one I was referring to. Just assumed the ad was accurate.
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