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Slow starting

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Allis Wd45 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 16 Sep 2018 at 12:26pm
My Wd45 takes way too long to start proubley 15 seconds cranking at 65 degrees never had a problem before it cranks over fine but just don’t want to start it puffs out smoke when it finally Starts and runs fine.I’m using no choke because I’m afraid I will flood it.
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DougS View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DougS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 2018 at 12:49pm
What color of smoke? Check compression. Check ignition for a long blue spark. Is the carb bowl flooding while the engine is not running?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Allis Wd45 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 2018 at 1:10pm
Smoke is black, the bowl isn’t flooding and spark plugs and a tan brown color.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Boss Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 2018 at 7:09pm
Check the air cleaner. Could be a wasp nest or something restricting air flow. Sounds like its flooding

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Allis Wd45 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 2018 at 8:46pm
Boss Man- is there a way to pull the top off the air cleaner or the wire mesh to see inside?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DSeries4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 2018 at 8:53pm
Originally posted by Allis Wd45 Allis Wd45 wrote:

Boss Man- is there a way to pull the top off the air cleaner or the wire mesh to see inside?

Take the hose off that runs from the air cleaner to the carb and try starting it that way.
'49 G, '54 WD45, '55 CA, '56 WD45D, '57 WD45, '58 D14, '59 D14, '60 D14, '61 D15D, '66 D15II, '66 D21II, '67 D17IV, '67 D17IVD, '67 190XTD, '73 620, '76 185, '77 175, '84 8030, '85 6080
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Allis Wd45 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 2018 at 12:05pm
Ok I’m going to give that a try there is dirt in the pipe going town to the oil in the air cleaner is that ok or should it be cleaned.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bill_MN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 2018 at 12:10pm
Take the whole air cleaner off the tractor, remove the bowl and the bottom retainer cone inside holding the mesh in, then pull the mesh out and soak the housing and mesh in gasoline then pressure wash and put back together with fresh oil.
1951 WD #78283, 1918 Case 28x50 Thresher #76738, Case Centennial B 2x16 Plow
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Allis dave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 2018 at 1:17pm
You can't just take the mesh our of a WD45 air cleaner. The bottom of the cleaner is crimped, soldered, or welded in (I can't remember which. I swished gas around in mine a bunch of times until it came out clean.
 
In one of Sugarmaker's topics, he actually took one apart then welded it back in place.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HoughMade Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 2018 at 1:42pm
I let mine sit in a bucket of kerosene for a few days.  then I let it drip out until dry and the schmutz, loosened up from the soaking, was at the bottom of the bucket.  But that was for standard dust/dirt and oil on the mesh, not nests. 
1951 B
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CTuckerNWIL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 2018 at 3:28pm
WC was spot welded. i broke the weld loose and tossed the wire and replaced it with new. It was crumbling and I didn't want bits of steel wool( basically) in my new engine. Cheap and easy fix every 60 years or so.
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Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 2018 at 4:03pm
I don't know how much help you can give a guy that won't pull on the choke when starting an engine that he's having trouble getting started. When he finally wears out the starter from excessive cranking times, then maybe he'll try the choke ?? I doubt it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sugarmaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 2018 at 4:33pm
Originally posted by Allis Wd45 Allis Wd45 wrote:

Ok I’m going to give that a try there is dirt in the pipe going town to the oil in the air cleaner is that ok or should it be cleaned.

Since your last post: Have you made any progress? As mentioned the rubber hose from the air cleaner to the carb can easily be removed and this will bypass the air cleaner from the system. Try to start it that way first. Yep ,a small amount of choke might be needed too. 
Good luck and let us know what happens.
 Regards,
 Chris
D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wekracer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 2018 at 9:34pm
Have you been shutting the gas off and does it sit a week or two between starts. If the gas is left on the needle could be leaking a little causing flooding. I have a D17 that will do that if you don’t shut the gas off. It won’t do it in one day but it will after a week.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Allis Wd45 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 2018 at 11:26pm
I always shut the gas off when I park it and it sat 5 days the day I parked it it was slow starting the first time second was normal. When I moved it 5 days later I started it 3 times and it took a long time all 3 times.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Allis Wd45 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 2018 at 11:29pm
So your saying that if it’s already getting too much gas choke it and flood it out more. Real smart. Usually 1/4 choke 1/4 throttle starts fine I’ve tried full choke and all throttle positions none different. I know how to run a choke lever. Maybe you’ll figure out to quit choking the engine when there’s so much gas in there the plugs are wet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Allis Wd45 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 2018 at 11:29pm
Dr Allis So your saying that if it’s already getting too much gas choke it and flood it out more. Real smart. Usually 1/4 choke 1/4 throttle starts fine I’ve tried full choke and all throttle positions none different. I know how to run a choke lever. Maybe you’ll figure out to quit choking the engine when there’s so much gas in there the plugs are wet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LionelinKY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2018 at 12:50am
Check your manifold gaskets. It might be getting too much air through them (without any fuel) and not enough up through the carb vaporizing the fuel as it goes. This would require longer cranking times to get enough fuel atomized in the cylinders along with the air to get a good fire. The sooner you reach the ideal air:fuel ratio, the sooner it will start. If your plugs are still a tan brown color and gas isn't running out of the carb, then you are not anywhere near the point of flooding out the engine and would probably benefit from an engine rotation or 2 with full choke and then no choke. That is how my WD45 likes it. Whether manually or electrically starting, a crank or 2 with full choke normally gets her running. If I am not quick enough and she dies, 1 more crank without any choke and she is ready to work. If your plugs got wet at all, they would be blackened pretty quick and start fouling soon after. You say it runs fine after a puff of black smoke and starts. Sure sounds to me like you are having a delay in getting a rich enough air:fuel mixture to the spark to make it run. The fuel in the bowl is vaporizing naturally but then the fumes are just hanging out in the manifold as they slowly work their way up without the proper draft up through the carb. By the time these fumes actually reach the cylinder, they are much richer than the ideal ratio which is why you see that puff of black smoke being fired off. Once the engine actually starts running, it creates a stronger draft up through the carb regardless if your manifold gaskets are good or bad. This may be why it runs ok at this point. HTH
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HoughMade Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2018 at 7:02am
Of course the plugs are wet after cranking and cranking. Choke or no choke, if it doesn’t start quickly, it’s drawing fuel in and when it starts, it will be rich. The plugs being wet after a lot of cranking doesn’t necessarily mean flooding is why it wouldn’t start in the first place. If there are no restrictions in the intake, I’d look at whether the spark is strong enough.

Edited by HoughMade - 18 Sep 2018 at 7:02am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2018 at 7:04am
New information !!! Now he claims to have been using the choke sometimes with results being the same...no/difficult start.    "I'm using no choke because I'm afraid I'll flood it".....direct quote from the original posting.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sugarmaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2018 at 8:31am
There could be several reasons for this starting issue. I have had trouble starting my tractors and folks on hear helped me get through the problems! 
Regards,
 Chris
D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Allis Wd45 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2018 at 12:06pm
The tractor has never not started it just takes way longer than it should I haven’t had time to try anything plan to get around to it this afternoon. I do choke it but I wasn’t grinding on the starter for 20 seconds with the choke on

Edited by Allis Wd45 - 18 Sep 2018 at 12:07pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sugarmaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2018 at 4:18pm
Could be fuel and or spark, or worst case a worn out engine.
Regards,
 Chris
D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bill_MN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2018 at 4:52pm
Originally posted by Allis dave Allis dave wrote:

You can't just take the mesh our of a WD45 air cleaner. The bottom of the cleaner is crimped, soldered, or welded in (I can't remember which. I swished gas around in mine a bunch of times until it came out clean.
 
In one of Sugarmaker's topics, he actually took one apart then welded it back in place.
I have a 45 cleaner on my WD and I took it apart no problem. The bottom mesh retainer was just press fit on the center pipe and the outer ring had some raised bumps that kind of snapped it into the groove inside the housing just above the oil cup lip. Now maybe it had been taken apart before but there was no evidence of welds.
1951 WD #78283, 1918 Case 28x50 Thresher #76738, Case Centennial B 2x16 Plow
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sugarmaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2018 at 7:11pm
I will make a slight correction here. I have drilled out the welds on a WD45 air cleaner mesh retainer. But I do not plan to re-weld it. I believe the bottom most mesh  retainer  will stay in place just by forcing it onto the center pipe in the air cleaner. 
Regards,
 Chris
D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Allis Wd45 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2018 at 7:35pm
I went out and started it today much better I’m not going to worry about it unless it’s gets bad again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sugarmaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2018 at 8:06pm
Ok! glad its working better.
 Regards,
 Chris
D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 2018 at 5:40am
This is an annoying, but very, very simple problem.  When set up right, you need nothing more than fuel on, choke, and 270 degrees of crankshaft rotation to start.  That's three pulls of the hand crank, or a short blip of the starter motor.  More than two turns of the engine is clearly excessive.

Long cranking time, plugs wet, but no choke means there is not sufficient ignition energy to clear the plug gap enough to ignite what fuel may appear.

When an engine is cold, the air density is high, and there's condensation inside the chamber.  To complicate things worse, when the engine is shut down, particularly if you have throttle set high and 'key off' the ignition, the coasting engine pulls in fuel that doesn't burn... instead, it just washes the cylinder walls and leaves oily fuel on the plugs.  If the running mixture is set rich, or the airway prior to the carbeurator is restricted, there will be plenty more fuel coming into the engine than needed, exacerbating the situation.

When you turn it over, compression increases density more, any ignition discharge tends to bleed across moisture on the plugs from electrode to ground. If spark energy is low, it will continue to bleed until the piston has circulated enough air out of the chamber to 'dry out' the plug tip enough, at which time, plug tip insulation quality is high enough to allow ignition voltage to increase to corona point, and a spark develops.

When ignition voltage is very high, it burns the moisture off in the first ignition event, and by the second, you  have fire in the chamber.

The exact same scenario appears inside the distributor cap, through the rotor, the top of the coil, and to a certain extent, the ignition points and condenser.

You didn't note wether you had distributor or magneto, most WD45s would have a distributor, but depending on who had it before, and if they'd done a swap, it may have a magneto... regardless, your ignition system needs a little TLC.

I'll GUESS that your WD45 has a distributor.  If it does, pull the distributor cap, check the distributor shaft for slop.  If it's sloppy, pull the distributor and have it rebuilt, and install an electronic conversion kit, new rotor, cap, wires (resistor type), and coil, with a new set of plugs.

If it's a magneto, take it to a magneto specialist for a complete overhaul, and reinstall it with SOLID CORE wires and new plugs.

Then make sure that air cleaner is clean.  My air cleaner's oil cups tend to accumulate water in the bottom, even when they're in the shed.  this raises the oil level and density, hence, increases pressure drop, making a richer-yet mix.
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Allis Wd45 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 2018 at 3:55pm
Tractor has a distributor how much slop should be in the distributor shaft? None or very little?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Sep 2018 at 5:19am
By feel... none.

When you start the engine cold, there's usually a fair amount of noticeable slop.  When the engine starts, oil pressure comes up, as does resistance in the oil pump, which on many engines, is coupled to the bottom of the distributor shaft... SO... in those cases, the distributor shaft's spin tends to stabilize once the engine develops oil pressure.

On a really cold day, it won't take as many turns.  When you change the oil, it'll come up to pressure faster for a while, so it won't take as many turns... both of those cases result in your starting problem being less noticeable.

If, after re-working the distributor, the problem goes away, always go through mixture adjustment process again, as you'll likely find that the adjustments have been gradually messed with over the years to compensate for weakening ignition.
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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