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Piston scoring D-21/210/220/7030 engines |
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DrAllis
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 22246 |
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Topic: Piston scoring D-21/210/220/7030 enginesPosted: 27 Nov 2025 at 9:09pm |
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Trying to finish up this customers knocking 220 engine. I've experienced this problem for I'd say 30 years off and on. It's always the engines that don't have piston cooling spraying oil from underneath to keep piston temps down that seem to do this. Replacement pistons and sleeves are parts that work fine in 7040's and bigger because they do have piston cooling, but the newer design piston/sleeves do not like being used in the old non-piston cooled engines. Unfortunately, the old piston/sleeve parts have been discontinued for a very looong time. All you can purchase now is the newer designed tighter fitting parts. The older engines used to spec piston skirt to cylinder sleeve clearance at .007". All the newer piston/sleeve kits are .003". Sometimes they work for years and then, just like this engine, you've got a mess to deal with. I've got a jig made to take my sleeves to a favorite machine shop and have (new or old) sleeves power honed out an extra .004" to alleviate this problem. It's an unfortunate event with no warning whatsoever. My advice is if you are overhauling one of these older non-piston cooled engines, you'd better loosen it up a little or you might get to do it again someday down the road. Pictures on the way.
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Calvin Schmidt
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Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Ontario Can. Points: 4570 |
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Posted: Yesterday at 4:40pm |
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Thanks DR. I've heard of this before. Had this happen about 20 years ago while breaking in a fresh rebuilt D21 engine on the dyno at a moderate load.
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Nothing is impossible if it is properly financed
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coggonobrien
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Joined: 14 Nov 2010 Location: Eastern Iowa Points: 1865 |
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Posted: 21 hours 28 minutes ago at 8:07pm |
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DrAllis
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 22246 |
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Posted: 17 hours 56 minutes ago at 11:39pm |
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I got the 220 engine fired up today and it sounds fine, but was only ran for a couple of minutes as it was supper time. This engine has the later model crankshaft driven oil pump and deeper oil pan on it. The oil capacity should be 21 quarts. This tractor has passed thru how many owners and technicians over the years ?? Who knows ?? Anyway, there isn't a serial number tag on the engine block, so I'll have to try and determine by the chassis s/n if it had this newer oil pump or not from the factory. I did notice that the engine oil level dipstick had been modified by someone in the past. It has been made longer, which would cause you to NOT fill the engine to 21 quarts capacity. I think it's about an inch too long, so we've probably been maybe 2 gallons LOW on oil all these years?? So, I will be changing that for sure. It also (at some point) had new slotted -.010" rod bearing shells installed and they did not get the connecting rods turned around as was required with that change to updated parts. So, now that has been corrected. It now has the newest "ARP" brand connecting rod bolts installed and torqued to 85 ft lbs. All six new wrist pin bushings were needed as they should have been replaced when the engine was OH'd before sometime in its past. One more thing to be extremely careful of when installing sleeves in these engines. Obviously, you want to clean the block very well and dry fit the new sleeves without the Orings on them. They should go in easily and be able to rotate when installed fully in the block. Remove the sleeves, roll on the new Orings (two black on the top two grooves and orange in the bottom groove) and then with a pocket screwdriver go around each one to be sure nothing is rolled/twisted. Now, the next important part: wipe Mazola cooking oil lightly on each Oring with your finger. Also wipe the inside of the lower block bore too. Nothing excessive !! just a light coat on the rubber and in the block bore. Shove the sleeves in and bolt them down. Excessive lube between those Orings can cause things to squeeze the sleeve and when you've only got .003" skirt clearance, you cannot afford to have that happen. Maybe the snow storm won't be so bad tonite and I can get the front axle under it and get in a hr or so of run time tomorrow. We'll see !!
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SteveM C/IL
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Shelbyville IL Points: 8705 |
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Posted: 17 hours 27 minutes ago at 12:08am |
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I'm sure it wouldn't help if it was turned up some. Show me one that isn't. Mine got the mains jetted at OH with M&W's and turned to 170hp in early 2000's. Has around 1500hrs on it. So far so good. It's retired to batwing duty now.
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DrAllis
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 22246 |
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Posted: 16 hours 48 minutes ago at 12:47am |
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I've thought of a couple of other things too that could contribute to this problem : A muffler versus a straight pipe. A straight pipe might be enough of a benefit (100 degrees pyro temp cooler ) to offset altering HP upwards a bit. The fan belts on the D-21/210/220 were those da** shoestring width sized belts that had to be kept very tight or there was a reduction in fan/water pump speed at full throttle, especially when the tin pulley on the fan got worn. It makes sense that 180 degree coolant temps would have to be better than running right on the edge of the red when it comes to piston skirt diameters. Lastly, your M & W's probably are a little looser fit than .003". For sure there's less blow-by with their top ring design and that would make for a cooler piston too, wouldn't ya think ??
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Mikez
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Joined: 16 Jan 2013 Location: Usa Points: 8771 |
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Posted: 10 hours 1 minutes ago at 7:34am |
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This should be put in knowledge section
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Lynn Marshall
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Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Dana, Iowa Points: 2429 |
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Posted: 7 hours 3 minutes ago at 10:32am |
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Do you think that the scoring starts around the o-ring area? Our shop worked on an early 7030 one time that would score the pistons on a break in pull on the dyno. I didn't personally work on it and I remember that it was turned up to 180 horsepower. I think that it did that twice before we talked to someone higher up and they suggested removing the top o-ring on the sleeve. My memory fades, but I think that fixed it. Question, were the 426 engines always a three o-ring design or did the early ones just use two on the sleeves?
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Michael V (NM)
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: NM Points: 2508 |
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Posted: 6 hours 21 minutes ago at 11:14am |
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I'm for sure following this thread, because I have a 220 that needs a complete rebuild. needs an injection pump rebuild also,,planning on turning it +12-15%,, jus for playing mostly,, as long as I have it,, it will never see long days of hard work
Hey DR.,, is there a way to get a sleeve/piston/overhaul set from you that has been honed the +.004??
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DrAllis
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Posted: 6 hours 11 minutes ago at 11:24am |
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Old original Gen One 426's I know were only two Orings. One black on top and one orange on the bottom just like the 301. You find that out on the first OH. Personally, I've only ever seen three Oring replacement sleeves and I'm sure a 7030 probably was just that. Remember, the 7030 engine developed 12 to 15 more flywheel HP right off the bat compared to a 220 engine, because of chassis/hydraulic loads. I too know of a very early 7030 that went thru two OH's in the first 24 to 36 months of its life due to scored pistons. It had an intercooler installed and turned up a bit. I don't remember if the muffler was on it or not. I didn't work on it either time but was aware of its issues.
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DrAllis
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 22246 |
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Posted: 6 hours 5 minutes ago at 11:30am |
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That could be done. Or you could get your own kit of choice and just send me six sleeves and one piston and I can have them oversized for you. I'd suggest checking the clearance first to verify they are in that .003" to .0035" range to warrant doing it. My guy charged me $50 bucks each I believe.
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