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23hp 2cyl Kohler Vertical Question

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BuckSkin View Drop Down
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    Posted: 30 May 2023 at 12:46am
We have a 2006 Cub Cadet Z Force 50 Zero Turn mower that we just recently got.

It has a 2-cylinder 23hp vertical shaft Kohler.

In order to remove and repair a broken deck lift shaft (like that when we got it), I left the hind wheels on the ground and raised the front wheels about six or eight inches off the ground, using the crane/hoist on my truck.

It sat raised like that for around three days.

Some helpful citizen saw it and informed me that the oil would drain into the heads and cause all sorts of problems.

They didn't elaborate on what problems it would cause, nor did they offer any fixes or remedies.

I have not started it since the front end being raised, as I discovered the drive/pump belt was hanging in threads and have a new one on the way; plus, the crankcase vent canister was hanging by the hose and the grommet that holds it in the breather was missing = new grommet on the way.

After the guy mentioning not to allow them to sit with the front end inclined, I did notice a bit of oil on the muffler; but, with that grommet missing, that oily muffler is nothing new.

I investigated the air filter and there is nary a drop of oil on it.

I searched this on both Google and YouTube and found nary a mention about it.

My questions are:

1. Just how much of an incline does it take to cause this oil getting in the wrong place problem ?

2. Where does it get that it ain't supposed to be ?

3. How do I know this has happened ?

4. What is going to happen if oil has gotten where it should not be and I run the engine, which is exactly what I would have done if that guy hadn't said anything as I didn't know any better ?

5. If I raise the rear end and leave it a few days, will the oil find it's way back and all be well with the world once again?
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DiyDave View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote DiyDave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2023 at 4:42am
Set it level and check the oil level.  If its low, pull the plugs and crank it over.  If oil starts coming out of the plug holes, stop cranking...Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2023 at 5:25am
Oil will fill up the cylinders(hydrolock) and muffler(s).
Pull both plugs, pretend start and see how much oil  comes out.
if just a very light 'mist', you got real lucky...
a 'gusher'... drain the oil, spray brake cleaner and blow the rest of the oil of of the cylinders.
reinstall the plugs AND engine oil, then start her up. after 5-10 minutes ,any oil in the muffler will have burned off. Do this outdoors of course and NOT near the house...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2023 at 8:09am
??????????? what is the PATH for crank case oil to get into the CYLINDER ?  You could get oil up on top of the cam shaft / rocker arms, but HOW do you think it gets into the cylinder ?

dont the cylinders point somewhat FORWARD from the crank ?  if you raise the front end, i would think the cylinders would be the HIGH point with respect to oil level ?


Edited by steve(ill) - 30 May 2023 at 8:13am
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote SteveM C/IL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2023 at 10:11am
My 25hp Koehler has cylinder at rear as well....every zero I've seen is that way. Theory is oil will creep past rings filling cylinder. I would jus pull the plugs and crank it a bit to expel excess oil
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BuckSkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2023 at 11:58am
Originally posted by steve(ill) steve(ill) wrote:

??????????? what is the PATH for crank case oil to get into the CYLINDER ?  You could get oil up on top of the cam shaft / rocker arms, but HOW do you think it gets into the cylinder ?

I had been wondering the same thing; but, it must be possible for the same reasons that a leaking carburetor can fill the crankcase with gasoline.

Originally posted by DiyDave DiyDave wrote:

Set it level and check the oil level.  If its low, pull the plugs and crank it over.  If oil starts coming out of the plug holes, stop cranking...

Originally posted by jaybmiller jaybmiller wrote:

Oil will fill up the cylinders(hydrolock) and muffler(s).
Pull both plugs, pretend start and see how much oil  comes out.
if just a very light 'mist', you got real lucky...
a 'gusher'... drain the oil, spray brake cleaner and blow the rest of the oil of of the cylinders.
reinstall the plugs AND engine oil, then start her up. after 5-10 minutes ,any oil in the muffler will have burned off. Do this outdoors of course and NOT near the house...

Originally posted by SteveM C/IL SteveM C/IL wrote:

My 25hp Koehler has cylinder at rear as well....every zero I've seen is that way. Theory is oil will creep past rings filling cylinder. I would jus pull the plugs and crank it a bit to expel excess oil

Thanks to everyone !

I will most definitely pull the plugs and see what squirts out.

I am assuming this seepage into the cylinders takes quite a bit of time and if I must raise the front-end for maybe half-an-hour that it is unlikely enough oil would get past for concern, right ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Tbone95 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2023 at 1:06pm
I’ve never been up close and personal to any of these, but it’s hard to imagine 6-8 inches of lift would cause an issue, idk. It’s a gravity thing, put it back up there and see if the oil is actually higher than that cylinder???? Maybe do, just hard to imagine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote TramwayGuy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2023 at 2:06pm
A lot depends on how deep the crank is and where the natural oil level is. If it was as close as the ‘helpful’ neighbor implies, it would churn the oil a lot just going under an incline; and I presume Kohler engineers would have considered that. Kohler says continuous duty at 25-degree angle is OK.

http://www.kohlerengines.com/engines/common/pdf/brochures/Command-PRO-V-Twins-(E-2062-G).pdf”
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2023 at 3:38pm
I was assuming the heads are at the front of the tractor, so the lowest point when the rear end is lifted.
when I do B&S valve gapping, I raise the front of the tractor, which allows oil in the heads to go back INTO the sump.
3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BuckSkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2023 at 5:58pm
The Verdict

I pulled the plugs = dry as a bone.

I whirled her over several rounds = nothing but air.

I almost never got the plugs back in working through that not-in-line hole through the plastic cover.

Thanks, everyone for providing me with a plan of action to get this investigated.

Now I am attempting to remove the rusted-over lug-nuts that some bonehead thought it wise to install with an impact wrench probably fifteen years ago --- it's not like we were going to be dropping over Russell Creek Hill with an American Bullnose possum-belly behind us --- snug with a 3/8 ratchet would have been plenty enough.

I know who the bonehead was and I will catch him gone some night and throw his air-guns in the pond.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2023 at 6:08pm
um. when the plugs were out ,did you notice IF they were 'sparking' ?
I check for this EVERY time, because I got led down the long windy path where the 'no start' was caused by a shorted magneto wire.....
it wasn't timing, it wasn't valves' it wasn't carb' it wasn't gas, grrrrrrrrr...
3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Codger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2023 at 8:24pm
Just glued in new exhaust valve seats in one of those last week as no compression in one cylinder, and no spark in the other. Owner was using mower with dead ignition coil in #1, and until the #2 exhaust seat popped free killing the engine, the owner did not realize it was down on power. This however is a horizontal crank Cub Cadet lawn tractor.

While you have it opened up, pressure wash the engine clean as that series moves a lot of air and most failures we see are from cooling air restriction. Exhaust seats popping free usually destroy the engine and it's caused from overheating.
A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BuckSkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2023 at 1:09am
Originally posted by jaybmiller jaybmiller wrote:

um. when the plugs were out ,did you notice IF they were 'sparking' ?

I didn't actually test them for spark; but they were clean as Aunt Rhodie's kitchen.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2023 at 6:12am
re: lug nuts...

The body guy next door went to take off rear tire/rim to replace fender tin. Chewed off the special  unlocking nut.destroyed it. Not a 'happy camper' as it added 2 days more time to the job. Some kid at the garage must have used a zillion pounds in the airgun to 'burp' the nuts on....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BuckSkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2023 at 11:18am
Originally posted by jaybmiller jaybmiller wrote:

re: lug nuts... Some kid at the garage must have used a zillion pounds in the airgun to 'burp' the nuts on....

I spent the first 53 years of my life in a big tire shop.

The biggest profit losses and time wastes were caused by impact wrenches both ours and quite often someone else's.

When you are in the tire business you have to work behind all the rest of the mechanics --- most being overzealous idiots with impact wrenches.

The customer has some work done at another garage that requires wheel removal; those guys cross-thread the nuts with an air-gun hammering them on so tight; and then, they tell the customer "you had better see the tire shop pretty soon".

It was bad enough with plain old steel wheels; but, these days the pot-metal wheels have deep recesses where no cold-chisel or torch can get without destroying a wheel.

We would go to remove the lug-nuts and they would just spin on the stud with all the threads wadded up in a pile; you can't back them off and you can't break them off; the nut just spins in place --- you have a problem.

Often this happens on the side of a busy highway, when all the poor soul has to work with are the barely capable in the best of situations tools provided with the spare tire.

I refuse to use impact wrenches on anything and I never allow them to be used on anything of mine; but, I am just one guy and I can't save the world from air-guns all by myself; they should be outlawed.



 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Codger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2023 at 12:07pm
Been using impact wrenches of all sizes since 1972 when my first was given to me. Used correctly, they are the tool to have. I was around a body shop atmosphere a good portion of my life so compressed air is integral to my thought processes. The cheap impact wrenches are just that, cheap. Good ones are like any well maintained tool and will perform as expected.

All that said, I do torque lug nuts and studs with a calibrated torque wrench. Always have as I too have fought gorilla attacks with an impact wrench so don't replicate the effort. I, and my family are of the mentality that if you can't change a flat tire alongside the roadway, you don't drive the vehicle.

I've not switched to anything battery powered yet but have borrowed several brands to test out. Most work well with Milwaukee being my best evaluated. Haven't made the jump yet as have compressed air readily available but the idea is tempting. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DanWi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2023 at 4:12pm
Went to sharpen the blades on a zero-turn lawnmower I bought from a friend. Couldn't get them loose with a block of wood and a breaker bar. Before I got it, he had serviced and sharpened the blades, put them on with an impact, Guess I will be borrowing his impact to get them off, then just tightening them with a socket wrench next time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Tbone95 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2023 at 7:23am
Pretty sure I’m somewhere around 10-11 encounters of breaking tools and/ or studs and /or lug nuts while trying to change tires hammered on by meatheads with impact wrenches. Probably at least half of those were away from home and often with GOOD tools breaking as well as tire changing tools that come with the vehicle. Long ago began the practice of getting a vehicle home from tire service and immediately getting my wrenches and torque wrench to loosen the lug nuts then torque. 1 time I neglected that and regretted it. My son and wife were making the move to college trip one year and got a flat. He got a few nuts loose but broke two tools trying to get the others. We have roadside coverage so they called for help. Truck shows up with the typical cowboy swagger, “I got this son/ little lady just stand back.” Pretty funny when HE had to call for help!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DiyDave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2023 at 5:13pm
Originally posted by DanWi DanWi wrote:

Went to sharpen the blades on a zero-turn lawnmower I bought from a friend. Couldn't get them loose with a block of wood and a breaker bar. Before I got it, he had serviced and sharpened the blades, put them on with an impact, Guess I will be borrowing his impact to get them off, then just tightening them with a socket wrench next time.

I use never-seize on the blade bolts, put it on when I get a new mower, if it gets dry, I put a drop or 2 of oil from the dipstick, to re-wet it.  I change mine about every 10-12 machine hours.  Makes a big difference in quality of cut, and lowers fuel usage...Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BuckSkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2023 at 5:28pm
Originally posted by Tbone95 Tbone95 wrote:

 Long ago began the practice of getting a vehicle home from tire service and immediately getting my wrenches and torque wrench to loosen the lug nuts then torque. 

I have everything necessary to keep the tire shop employees completely out of the loop as much as possible and do almost all of my tire changing at home; save for one vehicle = whatever that thing the wife drives is = it has pot-metal wheels that just don't agree with manual tools.

In the case of that vehicle, I only ever take the tires/wheels to the tire shop, leaving the vehicle at home.

I have changed many a tire on both truck and trailer in stockyard parking lots and wherever else I could get far enough off the road to not get killed; the drop-leg jacks on the front of the trailer make excellent bead-breakers; lacking that, a hydraulic bottle-jack between the truck frame and tire sidewall works just as well.
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