This site is not affiliated with AGCO Inc., Duluth GA., Allis-Chalmers Co., Milwaukee, WI., or any surviving or related corporate entity. All trademarks remain the property of their respective owners. All information presented herein should be considered the result of an un-moderated public forum with no responsibility for its accuracy or usability assumed by the users and sponsors of this site or any corporate entity. | ||||||
The Forum | Parts and Services | Unofficial Allis Store | Tractor Shows | Serial Numbers | History |
Allis B with melted lead in the oil pan. |
Post Reply | Page <123> |
Author | |||
Hillmann
Silver Level Joined: 02 Jun 2014 Location: Wisconsin Points: 206 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
At this point all that is still in the block is the crank, cam and tappets, magneto and oil pump. When I tried to pull it it was getting dark so I didn't try very hard but there was no end to end play with just hand pressure. I assumed I wasn't hitting the tappets yet because I figured there would be at least some play before they starting giving resistance. I'll have more time tomorrow to work on it. Although at this point I think I am only a few bolts away from removing the block from the torque tube so if the cam has toooo much play I may just pull the engine completely.
|
|||
Sponsored Links | |||
Alex09(WI)
Orange Level Joined: 15 Mar 2012 Location: CECIL WI Points: 1698 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
Whether you remove the cam or not, your oil clearance from the cam to the cam bearings is too much at .015". You will lose lots of oil pressure there. The only way to remedy that is to remove the cam and replace the cam bushings. You may need to go to 0025" undersize bushings on the cam also. If you take the block out of the tractor, then you may want to consider just swapping out the crank also.
|
|||
www.awtractor.com
A&W TRACTOR 920-598-1287 KEEPING ALLIS-CHALMERS IN THE FIELDS THROUGH THE 21ST CENTURY |
|||
steve(ill)
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 77700 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
probably hard to get a good measure of bearing wear with the cam installed.. The pushrods and rocker arm are pushing DOWN from above so you will not notice much movement by hand ............ if your going to pull the cam, i would suggest pulling the motor and turning it upside down / rocker arm off / push rods out.
|
|||
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
|||
Hillmann
Silver Level Joined: 02 Jun 2014 Location: Wisconsin Points: 206 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
Rice Lake. What do you mean by .0025 rod bearings? Are they oversized by that amount? I would be interested in getting parts from you if you have them in stock. At the moment I need: a head gasket, thermostat housing gasket, (the one between the housing and the head) oil pan gasket, timing cover gasket, and a governor cover gasket. As well as the connecting rod bearings and crush shims. It feels like I am forgetting something in that list but I don't have the tractor here to look at and see what it is. I was pretty sure .015 was way out of spec, but in your experience do you think an old, well used engine can get that worn and still run or would you guess that most of that is from running without oil?
|
|||
Hillmann
Silver Level Joined: 02 Jun 2014 Location: Wisconsin Points: 206 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
The head is off. Just the camshaft and crank shaft are left in the block at the moment so the .015 isn't a super accurate measurement because I only measured the front bushing but it is close.
|
|||
steve(ill)
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 77700 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
YEA.... i just figured out that you have the head off, since you said you could see the notch on the piston tops....
Sounds like you are working out at the farm ? If the motor was out and HOME in the garage, you might have more time and easier job to overhaul ? The oil pump drives off the back of the cam shaft.. If you pull the motor, check the pin drive in the shaft.
|
|||
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
|||
Hillmann
Silver Level Joined: 02 Jun 2014 Location: Wisconsin Points: 206 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
At the moment it is out in the hayfield where it stopped running. Unfortunately I don't have any place to work on it at home other than the living room. And no work shop at the farm either. If I end up pulling the entire engine I will want to do a full restoration on it, which I would like to do, just not now when I should be baling hay. So at the moment I just want to get it back up and running for another 20-30 hours and then I will have all the time in world to work on it this winter. My project for next week was going to be to put up a shed that I tore down and moved to the farm so I have a place to work in the winter, but now my project for next week is to get the tractor running and bale hay.
|
|||
steve(ill)
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 77700 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
I dont think any of us condone building up a motor that is way out of spec.... But as you said there are a LOT of 75 year old tractors with worn out motors that are still running today.. Considering it is out in the field, i think i would assemble ASAP with the rod bearings, forget the cam, see what kind of oil pressure you got and go for it ..... Get your shed built and redo the motor over the winter.
If your PUMP is good, you really dont need much oil pressure, just a lot of FLOW....... still question what ORIGINALLY caused the problem. Might be worth putting a THICKER oil in to try to fill up some of the clearances and retain oil film.
Edited by steve(ill) - 22 Sep 2022 at 9:09pm |
|||
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
|||
Hillmann
Silver Level Joined: 02 Jun 2014 Location: Wisconsin Points: 206 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
I don't know what caused the pump to stop working. I put the mower on, added a quart of oil then made three or four rounds mowing. Then shut it down to make sure nothing on the mower vibrated lose and then made a few more rounds. After checking everything and restarting I had to have the throttle one notch higher than I did at first. I watched kept a close eye on the temp gauge because early in the summer when working it hard it would start to loose power when it was up to temp(condenser, plugs and adjusting valves mostly fixed that). It never got much above 170 so I wasn't too concerned about the need to have the throttle a bit higher. It stalled out going up a small hill. When I tried to restart it is when I first noticed it wasn't building oil pressure when cranking it. I took the oil filter and valve cover off to confirm it wasn't pumping oil instead of the gauge just not working. My guess is when I shut the tractor down to check that everything was tight the check valve on the oil pump got stuck open and the pump lost prime. I don't watch the pressure gauge that closely and I must not have noticed it didn't have pressure. Once I primed the pump through the filter tube it pumped oil just like it should while cranking it with the starter. The screens on the oil pick up were clean of debris when i pulled the oil pan so I don't know if something got stuck in the check valve or just build up over time was finely enough to hold the valve open. Now that I have the engine apart it looks like the last person to be in there was a fan of silicone. My first thought was a chunk of that got stuck in the valve but it would have had to get past the mesh on the oil pickup.
|
|||
Alex09(WI)
Orange Level Joined: 15 Mar 2012 Location: CECIL WI Points: 1698 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
Yes, the .0025" are 'oversize' bearings for 'undersize' crankshaft. .005" are available also but I don't have any in stock right now. Looks like I have all the other items here that you listed. For your time constraint, I would see running the cam as is if you have to. But the rod bearings need to get better clearances to avoid spinning a bearing. With adjusting the shims you should be able to get close to spec as long as the crank journals are not galled from the bearings. Its possible a VERY tired engine could have that much wear on the cam bearings.
Edited by Alex09(WI) - 23 Sep 2022 at 1:58pm |
|||
www.awtractor.com
A&W TRACTOR 920-598-1287 KEEPING ALLIS-CHALMERS IN THE FIELDS THROUGH THE 21ST CENTURY |
|||
corbinstein
Orange Level Joined: 31 Jul 2014 Location: Oklahoma Points: 796 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
If you're that desperate for oil pressure in that engine, you might could run 25% lucas and get by for a bit. I did it on a 57 Studebaker just going the 7 miles back and forth to work until I had a chance to pull the engine.
|
|||
Lon(MN)
Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Elk River,MN Points: 1905 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
I have a hand crank running engine and other new and used engine parts for sale. If you care to make a drive to Elk River Minnesota.
|
|||
http://lonsallischalmers.com
|
|||
Les Kerf
Orange Level Joined: 08 May 2020 Location: Idaho Points: 604 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
Yes. PROVIDED that the oil pump doesn't quit again. I would use 20w-50 oil and plug off the feed to the oil filter. Best wishes |
|||
Hillmann
Silver Level Joined: 02 Jun 2014 Location: Wisconsin Points: 206 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
Pretty much all of this is based on the hope that the pump stays working even if I have to prime it before every time I start it. I'll have to watch the gauge very closely and hope it keeps working.
|
|||
Hillmann
Silver Level Joined: 02 Jun 2014 Location: Wisconsin Points: 206 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
It looks like I need some more advice. I put the engine together yesterday and it ran perfect for a half an hour just sitting and idling. I was trying to get it up to temp to adjust the valve/rocker gap. It didn't want to get up to temp so I went to cut hay with it to get it up to temp. While cutting it lacked power. I assumed the lack of power was the valve gap being too big.
Once it was up to temp I set the gap to around .010 to .012 after that it wouldnt run for more than a couple minutes at a time. I tried adjusting the gap bigger and I couldnt get it to run any longer. Eventually I couldn't get it to run more than a few seconds. I eventually took the engine back apart thinking the bearings may have slop again. Plasti-gauge showed 1,2 & 4 were .002 to .003. And cylinder 3 was slightly over .003 I also went through the timing and that appears to be correct. Anybody have suggestions on the problem? |
|||
Alex09(WI)
Orange Level Joined: 15 Mar 2012 Location: CECIL WI Points: 1698 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
VALVE clearance was right in the ballpark .010 hot/.012 cold. Was the tractor sputtering or missing when it was 'lacking power'? Did pulling the choke halfway or all the way have any effect? I am thinking fuel or electrical problem but need more info to make accurate diagnosis
|
|||
www.awtractor.com
A&W TRACTOR 920-598-1287 KEEPING ALLIS-CHALMERS IN THE FIELDS THROUGH THE 21ST CENTURY |
|||
steve(ill)
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 77700 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
well, if you overlook any INTERNAL problem.. If you just showed up and said " my engine stops after 30 minutes and will not restart very good"..... we would normally say the COIL or CONDENSER are bad.... or your loosing fuel from a plugged filter or tank.... or gas cap not vented.
Loose valves / bearings / worn parts, normally dont keep an engine from RESTARTING after it has run 30 minutes .......... See if it restarts when cool.... See if it has spark.
|
|||
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
|||
Hillmann
Silver Level Joined: 02 Jun 2014 Location: Wisconsin Points: 206 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
It wasn't sputtering, but when climbing hills in thicker grass it felt like it was bogging down almost to the point of wanting to kill. Pulling the choke was how I killed it(kill switch wasn't hooked up yet) It took a good 4 or 5 seconds for it to shut off with the choke fully closed. At this point I am leaning towards not getting fuel is the next thing to look at as well as triple checking the timing.
|
|||
Hillmann
Silver Level Joined: 02 Jun 2014 Location: Wisconsin Points: 206 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
The condenser is new(less than 10 hours on it) and all four plugs had really good spark last night at which point we couldn't get it to run for more than a 30 seconds to a minute. Fuel is getting to the carburetor for sure, the fuel is only a few weeks old and the float is working, and there is no water in the fuel. I opened the drain on the carburetor and drained it into a glass container so that is how I how I know all of that, I don't know what the inside of the carb looks like. It could be a plugged jet, the reason I didn't dig into it is lack of gaskets and the carburetor has never been a problem before other than water getting into the tank. It just felt unlikely that the carburetor would choose 30 minutes after rebuilding the engine to stop working. |
|||
Les Kerf
Orange Level Joined: 08 May 2020 Location: Idaho Points: 604 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
Reckon it's time to find out |
|||
Hillmann
Silver Level Joined: 02 Jun 2014 Location: Wisconsin Points: 206 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
Most likely.
|
|||
steve(ill)
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 77700 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
yea... if it ran for 30 minutes... and you still have spark.... sounds like fuel problem.. If it was the timing, it should not have run for 30 minutes.
|
|||
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
|||
Hillmann
Silver Level Joined: 02 Jun 2014 Location: Wisconsin Points: 206 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
I have a question about the timing. When I turn the engine over very slowly by hand the number one plug fires(from the snap coupling) when the piston is very close to top dead center. Is that correct? Or should it be firing 30degrees before? I read that when it is turned slow it should fire at top dead center. I just don't know if that is correct or not.
|
|||
steve(ill)
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 77700 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
YES... the "SPRING" winds up and lets go at TDC when you rotate slow.. Once engine is running, the weights FLY OUT and take the spring out of the picture,.... and it will fire at the FIRE MARK.
mags were setup that way to work with HAND CRANK systems.... Still works OK with electric starter. Edited by steve(ill) - 02 Oct 2022 at 8:35pm |
|||
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
|||
Les Kerf
Orange Level Joined: 08 May 2020 Location: Idaho Points: 604 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
Yes, that is correct. The impulse mechanism retards the spark to prevent the engine from kicking back and breaking your arm while hand cranking. When the engine starts and gets above cranking speed, the magneto goes to the full advanced position for normal running. Edit: Steve is a quicker typist than I Edit #2: The other function of the impulse is to 'whip' the rotor at a much higher speed than is possible to achieve at hand-cranking speed; electrical theory tells us that the energy increases significantly the faster the magnetic lines of flux pass through the windings. This results in better sparking. Edited by Les Kerf - 02 Oct 2022 at 8:52pm |
|||
Hillmann
Silver Level Joined: 02 Jun 2014 Location: Wisconsin Points: 206 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
Steve and Les, thank you, I assumed that was probably the case but wasn't sure and couldn't find a for sure answer so I was pretty sure the timing is right(or close to it) but it kept bugging me that it may be firing too late and that is my problem. So since timing is at least close I guess the carburetor is the next step.
|
|||
Alex09(WI)
Orange Level Joined: 15 Mar 2012 Location: CECIL WI Points: 1698 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
iF YOUR tractor was not sputtering or missing when you thought it was 'lacking power' than your problem is not in the carb. If you had spark off the coil wire when the tractor would no longer start, then the electrical components should be okay too. If you have a magneto, to check the timing proceed as follows: Disconnect pug wires from plugs. Hand crank the engine very slowly until the magneto impulse snaps. At this point, the setscrew on the front crankshaft pulley should be pointing all the way up or all the way down. If the mag snaps when the setscrew is before or after vertical, loosen 2 mag attaching bolts and tilt mag so it snaps when setscrew is vertical, either top or bottom. Your static timing is now correct. This setting would have to be pretty far off to have that much affect on engine power.
|
|||
www.awtractor.com
A&W TRACTOR 920-598-1287 KEEPING ALLIS-CHALMERS IN THE FIELDS THROUGH THE 21ST CENTURY |
|||
corbinstein
Orange Level Joined: 31 Jul 2014 Location: Oklahoma Points: 796 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
how much rust do you have in the tank?
I've had rust in the tank cause the same problem. intermittent plugging of the filter and tube. What I did was remove the sediment bowl assembly from the tank, drill the top just a little and install a piece of copper tubing to come about a half inch up into the tank and drill the sides to allow fuel to enter there as well. That way you have more unobstructed places for fuel to enter.
|
|||
Hillmann
Silver Level Joined: 02 Jun 2014 Location: Wisconsin Points: 206 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
I need some help again. Once I got the engine put together it would only run for 10 seconds then wouldnt start again until it had fully cooled. I put in a new condensor and now it fires right up.
The problem now is as soon as it starts the engine wants to run away. The only way to slow it down is to fully close the choke. Even then the governor is keeping the throttle closed so it must still be spinning faster than it should. No matter what position the hand throttle is in the engine wants to run away and the governor is forcing the throttle butterfly valve closed. If I override the governor by forcing it by hand to open it has no affect on the speed of the engine. The only way I can come close to controlling speed is to play with the choke, and even then I can only adjust it from too fast at full choke to runaway as soon as I open the choke a tiny bit. Any guesses on where to start? I had the carburator apart and all the jets out. Everything looks clean. I didn't have a rebuild kit so put it back together with the old parts. |
|||
steve(ill)
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 77700 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
|
||
i would assume the throttle lever is not set right with the governor / carburetor...
at the front left of the motor, disconnect the governor cross rod from the rod going to the carburetor.. pull the throttle forward and back and watch that the governor arm is moving smoothly across the front of the motor..(behind the radiator) .. Put the THROTTLE lever at FULL OPEN... go to the carburetor and pull the rod FULL FORWARD... now see that the carb rod lines up with the hole in the governor cross shaft.... if not, bend the cross shaft forward or reverse until it fits. If that dont work, then you MIGHT have a governor problem.... and there is a SPRING on the governor rod at the housing , right ? Edited by steve(ill) - 14 Oct 2022 at 8:46pm |
|||
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
|||
Post Reply | Page <123> |
Tweet
|
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |