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Electrical issue |
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FREEDGUY
Orange Level Access Joined: 15 Apr 2017 Location: South West Mich Points: 5391 |
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Posted: 16 Aug 2019 at 5:20pm |
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I must admit that the original wiring was done by dad in '72 (with a different breaker box) but all of the boxes;recepts' and switch boxs'; are metal and were exposed to a farrow-to-finish operation for 25 years, Dad has an electrician coming to the farm tomorrow so I hope to have an update.
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JC-WI
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: wisconsin Points: 33591 |
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Well, if it fries off the end of the screwdriver, you know you got juice there... liquid molten metal for a few seconds...
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He who says there is no evil has already deceived himself
The truth is the truth, sugar coated or not. Trawler II says, "Remember that." |
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SteveM C/IL
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Shelbyville IL Points: 7912 |
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Can't decide if Dave want's to tighten screws or short across things....
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FREEDGUY
Orange Level Access Joined: 15 Apr 2017 Location: South West Mich Points: 5391 |
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So do I,
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DaveKamp
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Apr 2010 Location: LeClaire, Ia Points: 5620 |
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This was my point- NEC 'suggests' single-point grounding at the point-of-entry, which most inspectors will say is at the METER, but in an agricultural scenario, that would result in many instances of several-hundred-feet of overhead triplex needing an additional grounding conductor... and of course, any time a building hosted an atmospheric discharge, it'd invite a 'multi-point fire'. So, basically, any sane agriculturalist would bury a ground stake at the building or grain bin. But this is simply a case of open neutral. A technical note- the meter used, is probably high enough input impedance so as to not register a significant difference in unladen circuit resistance if the local ground was tied to a highly-resistive neutral... or in less-technical colloquial verbage... the meter is so sensitive, that it wouldn't be able to notice a bad neutral until you put a 120v load on it... which is why you see what appears to be 'good' voltage until you flip a breaker. That bad neutral could be anywhere from the panel, back to the main, so be prepared to open many boxes. I wish I was there, with a big screwdriver... I'm certain I'd find it in a few minutes. Most of the world's most confusing electrical problems are the result of open neutrals. |
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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FREEDGUY
Orange Level Access Joined: 15 Apr 2017 Location: South West Mich Points: 5391 |
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LMAO !! That's EXACTLY What I am towards electric AND mechanical work !! Yes, I am going to update any resolution to the problem !! Thanks again to ALL posters !!
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Dusty MI
Orange Level Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Charlotte, Mi Points: 5050 |
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Depending on where in S.W. MI. I could maybe go and look at it.
I'm In the Charlotte, MI. area south of Potterville. Dusty
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917 H, '48 G, '65 D-10 series III "Allis Express"
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tadams(OH)
Orange Level Access Joined: 17 Sep 2009 Location: Jeromesville, O Points: 9553 |
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Sounds like a loose screw on one of the connections. I had a problem with kicking a breaker at a out building that had a 100 amp box it was the screws on the breaker in the main box that was feeding it. But there should be a ground rod at every box.
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SteveM C/IL
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Shelbyville IL Points: 7912 |
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Sometimes it's wise to pay an electrician for things like this. I know just enough about electrical to be dangerous.
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DMiller
Orange Level Access Joined: 14 Sep 2009 Location: Hermann, Mo Points: 29235 |
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Triplex is still a common feeder system cable, and the Neutral is also the Ground. Four Wire 2/0 will have three 2/0 cables(Hot/Hot/Neutral) and one 1/0(Ground) 90% of meter feeds are on Triplex(H/H/N). This problem as noted is NOT the circuit box but the Neutral feed cable. Either dropped connection at the pole or meter base box or has a bad ground at the ground rod, and YES the Barn should have its OWN Ground Rod driven at least 7' into the soil.
Edited by DMiller - 13 Aug 2019 at 6:57am |
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shameless dude
Orange Level Joined: 10 Apr 2017 Location: east NE Points: 13611 |
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i'm staying out of this one, all i'd do is gits ZAPPED! whew
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JC-WI
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: wisconsin Points: 33591 |
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Could be a corroded underground wire. Gophers chewing can cause weird things too... think you have corrosion at a connection that hasn't been checked yet. |
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He who says there is no evil has already deceived himself
The truth is the truth, sugar coated or not. Trawler II says, "Remember that." |
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FREEDGUY
Orange Level Access Joined: 15 Apr 2017 Location: South West Mich Points: 5391 |
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Thanks guys, will be in touch soon.
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steve(ill)
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 77241 |
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"theoretically" there should be no second ground rod with the SUB box... "BUT" there is suppose to be 4 wires to the SUB so the ground and neutral are separate... but that never happens on the farm ........... I normally add a ground rod a the barn... see what others think.
That might "help", but you still have a problem with the white/ neutral / ground wire, somewhere.
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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FREEDGUY
Orange Level Access Joined: 15 Apr 2017 Location: South West Mich Points: 5391 |
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Yes,yes and now that you mention it(rod at the barn), no.
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steve(ill)
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 77241 |
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That brings up another question.. You have a GROUND ROD pounded into the ground at the METER BASE and connected to the neutral in that box... Is there any GROUND ROD at the BIN or the BARN ?
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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steve(ill)
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 77241 |
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On a three wire system, neutral and ground are the same... If you had 4 wires, they would be split.
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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FREEDGUY
Orange Level Access Joined: 15 Apr 2017 Location: South West Mich Points: 5391 |
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My black lead was touching the "bar" that holds both bare grounds AND the white neutral (never understood how that can possibly work LOL !!). Meant to say white neutral wires
Edited by FREEDGUY - 12 Aug 2019 at 8:44pm |
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Orangeinwisco
Bronze Level Access Joined: 13 Sep 2018 Location: NE Wisconsin Points: 39 |
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Big question is where did you check "voltage". Ground or nuetral?
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irlbeck A-C'S
Orange Level Joined: 28 Sep 2009 Location: Crestview FL. Points: 684 |
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The neutral connection to the box has been lost. The neutral actually returns current back to the source that the current comes from.
The best way I can describe what the neutral does is that it keeps the voltage on the two hot legs even. The voltage will stay even with a broken neutral as long as no load is applied to the circuit. As soon as load is applied the volts on one leg will go up while the other side will go down the same amount. Example,It could read 140v on one side and the other will be 100 volts (20 volt difference) or 240 on one and 0 on the other as you are describing. Do a good visual check on the neutral connection in the box. Look for where the neutral lug attaches to the bar that it's mounted on. Then trace the neutral wire back to where it is feeding from. You'll be looking for a broke wire or a loose connection in that box. Are you having any issues with things that may feed from a different panel? Bright or dim lights? Blowing bulbs. Burning up equipment or appliances? If you can not visually find the issue, another way to help troubleshoot would be to take a small wire from the neutral bar in a upline panel(that is not having issues) to the neutral bar in the panel that is having issues if the problem goes away the problem is in between the area that you jumped around. For safety turn the power off to the boxes before installing the jumper. The key finding a neutral issue with a meter is to check voltage from a hotleg that has load on it. Keep the volt meter lead on the hot wire and move the other lead around on the neutral in various locations looking for 120 volts. If you are checking from hot to neutral and you read bad voltage such as 240 V You then move the neutral lead to a different spot and the volt reading is 120 then your problem is in between the two points you have checked. Also the 240 volt equipment will run without the neutral. You'll notice the issue with the 120 volt stuff so your issue could be in the box or even upline of of the box for the fans you were using. Check for loose or broken connectors on the riser too. Edited by irlbeck A-C'S - 12 Aug 2019 at 8:42pm |
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B,C,CA,(2)WC's,(4)WD's,(2) WD45'S, 45Diesel, (2)D12'S Series 2, D12 Hiclear,(2)D12 Series 3, HD3, D17NF (3)D17 Series 4 Diesels, M-100 Grader,8550,A few Lawn tractors lots of other AC stuff
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FREEDGUY
Orange Level Access Joined: 15 Apr 2017 Location: South West Mich Points: 5391 |
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That particular disconnect is a rather large "hard-to-open" box with a side lever. We have had the 28" fan and stirator running within the last few days as well as interior lights on to see to pull samples out of the man hole with no issues ?? Thanks These big items are 220/240(not sure of the correct term) and are on opposing sides of the panel box.
Edited by FREEDGUY - 12 Aug 2019 at 8:12pm |
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Jim.ME
Orange Level Joined: 19 Nov 2016 Location: Maine Points: 934 |
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I would go to the box (in the bin) feeding the barn and see if the results are the same there. Check those connections as well. If it acts like the barn box, go to the disconnect under the meter and check it out. Is it just a fused disconnect switch, or breaker disconnect switch?
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FREEDGUY
Orange Level Access Joined: 15 Apr 2017 Location: South West Mich Points: 5391 |
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Excellent idea, yes, there is a 100 amp breaker that feeds the barn box in the bin box that is currently OFF due to fears of fire in the barn and that's where all of the orange and silver is housed. I personally can't get back to the farm until late week but will get updates. Thanks to you and everyone else for the input/info !!
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steve(ill)
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 77241 |
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If you can turn off the power at the BIN end, then go to the barn and pull the main BREAKER out and inspect the breaker and lug strips..... you might have to connect a couple lights or light string to one LUG and GROUND (LOAD) , then go back to the BIN and turn the breaker back on to see if the cable TO THE BARN will carry a load...
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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FREEDGUY
Orange Level Access Joined: 15 Apr 2017 Location: South West Mich Points: 5391 |
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Damn it John, I have a very difficult time reading your replies , LOL!! Dad has gone through every screw/bolt in the "sending" box and the afflicted box and re-torqued everything, he said nothing was loose
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FREEDGUY
Orange Level Access Joined: 15 Apr 2017 Location: South West Mich Points: 5391 |
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Yes, I must admit that I may have left out what I felt at the time was unnecessary info . The box is fed from the grain bin "box" overhead from the bin to the barn. Originally the barn was fed from the house where the meter base is attatched. After we erected the bin, a designated line was run to the bin underground up to the bin panel from a disconnect box under the meter base on the house, and then from the bin box, the barn circuit was hooked up via a riser up the bin to an existing derelect corn crib(15' away) that was originally fed from the barn. All was well until 2-3 weeks ago as far as the barn power is concerned (7 years after the re-configuring of the power supply to the barn). Perhaps I am not reading my meter correctly, I touched the red probe of my meter to a leg of the main and the black to the neutral/ground bar and got 120 'ish volts on either leg of the main(it's a tester that has 1 light for 120 + volts and 2 lights for 220/+ volts). It was when an individual single pole breaker was put under a load= a light switch turned on= that a leg dropped out on the main and the 20 amp single pole jumped to 220 ?? Thanks for all and any info, just upsets me that I can't figure this out on my own . Will definitely keep you guys "in-the-loop" though !!!
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Dave H
Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Central IL Points: 3476 |
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Yessir, I would get it on with those white (common) connectors first.
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john(MI)
Orange Level Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: SE MI Points: 9263 |
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Sounds like an open common(white) to me. I would tighten all of the screws on the white wire buss bar and the ground bus bar, and all of the wires on the breaker. Everyone should do this every couple years. I have found some very loose screws at the breakers. Vibrations loosen the screws.
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D14, D17, 5020, 612H, CASE 446
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DaveKamp
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Apr 2010 Location: LeClaire, Ia Points: 5620 |
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The OP description is exactly what happens when a 120/240v single-phase panel has an insufficient neutral connection. Typically, the connection problem will either be at the neutral busbar lug in the panel (where all the white wires tie in), or if it's fed by an overhead wire of tri-plex, will be at the connetion point at the support (bare) wire at the building, or at the feeder pole end. IF the site suffered a substantial lightning strike, and your feeders are all overhead wires, the most likely point will be at the main pole connection point (up top) where all the neutrals are frequently tied together. When you get up there and look at the connection hardware, you'll probably find one jumper's clip burned mostly off. If they're underground feeders, you might find same on an overhead pole (if you're fed in by overhead) or at the utility transformer's end... but you'll see the same scenario occur on any OTHER panels on the property. If it's an underground feeder to that building, chances are most likely that the connection point in your panel is zortched good, too... that's a sign that ground potential rise from a local strike caused high current flow from ground to neutral at that building's panel- check your ground stake and wire too (although NEC single-point-ground rules say you 'shouldn't' have a separate ground spike at the building, those codes weren't in effect at the time of most farm buildings, and frankly, the lack of a local ground point is insane when you've got lots of sharp edges on the buildings to incite atmospheric discharges that would otherwise run right through, and inflict harm on the power feeders, rather than equalize through the soil as mother nature does. The fact that you can see 120, simply means that there's no imbalance. When you load one breaker, it imbalances the panel, and your apparent voltage jumps because the return current path (neutral) is incomplete, or resistive.
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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steve(ill)
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 77241 |
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JIm is alos right........ If you check the BOX and BREAKER in the barn, and don't have a problem, then the cable FEEDING the barn or the Breaker on the OTHER END of the cable would be the problem.
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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