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Starting a diesel engine, especially cold question

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gerkendave View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gerkendave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Starting a diesel engine, especially cold question
    Posted: 07 Dec 2018 at 6:44pm
So after seeing a decal inside a swather with a cummins diesel in it I am wondering if I am placing my throttle in the wrong position when starting cold. I always just bump off an idle. This decal showed the universal sign for "choke" as running the throttle 3/4 of the way up. Now I understand that there is no choke on a diesel but does running the throttle up aid in the engine starting easier when cold? I've also noticed our Grasshopper dealer we use at work starts the little Kubota with the throttle wide open. I've always felt it's extremely hard on something to start like that but maybe I'm all wrong. What do you all do?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lonn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2018 at 6:50pm
Starting a Deere 4755, it automatically revs up high then throttles back on its own. I don't care for that method.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skateboarder68 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2018 at 7:13pm
Our 8050 had a factory decal by the console that said something like To aid in cold weather starting fully open throttle. Return to idle at first fire
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gerkendave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2018 at 7:18pm
Good info guys thank you! I've always been amazed that our 300kw genset at work goes from 0 to wide open immediately! There is never an idle option even under cool down straight from wide open to nothing. Seems extreme!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2018 at 8:35pm
The cold starting technique varies with each brand of engine and what kind of fuel injection system it has on it. Some are better after throttling wide-open and others are better at a slow idle. Not the same for all is my point.
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gerkendave View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gerkendave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 2018 at 6:41am
What is the best option on my 190xt doc?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tbone95 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 2018 at 7:11am
To me the best option is based on what method the equipment responds to. Do you plug it in? Everything I own of multiple brands if plugged in doesn’t need help from the throttle. If I need something that’s not plugged in, I’ll open the throttle but bring it down rapidly rather then letting it rev up right away, I hate that! I have one unit with a cold start mechanism that pours fuel to it automatically, but it changes other things so that it doesn’t rev. It sputters and chokes with smoke pouring then after a little bit runs perfect.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DougG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 2018 at 8:33am
Some have a timing advance that is set at that lever position your decal had, we had a Ford 6610 that had a button on the pump that when pushed in it would fire off very easily in cold weather
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AC720Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 2018 at 8:28pm
I wish I had put in a block heater on my XT when I was doing maintenance 2 years ago. Starting a warm engine to me is always easier on the components verses the intake heater. Usually takes anywhere between 30-60 seconds of the heater depending on the outside temperature. She starts pretty well after a few spins of the engine. Use half throttle on mine and pull back to a 1/4 after she is up and running. Would rather have a block heater instead.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DiyDave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 2018 at 8:33pm
Best trick I ever learned was to slide a coleman tent heater, under the oil pan, and let simmer, fer about 45 minutes, then they ALL start much easier...  If the tent heater don't fit under, use a single burner camp stove...  Oh, and don't use on a leaky engine...Thumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 2018 at 9:02pm
Generally speaking, when starting an engine with a RoosaMaster system, I've always felt the throttle set at about 800 to 1,000 RPM starts best.  I've slowed down many a Gleaner combine from 1200 RPM to 800 RPM  and improved the cold starting.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FREEDGUY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 2018 at 9:56pm
We put a 55,000 btu torpedo heater on top of an empty 55 gallon barrel about 5' away from the block  for about  5 minutes
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Walter(MO) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 2018 at 10:38pm
My 175 diesel has a block heater that I plug in for 1 hour or a little longer so engine doesn't have to do a cold start.  This seems to be the easiest start in cold weather which I hope is the best method for the engine.  I place throttle about 1/4 open for starting.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gerkendave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2018 at 7:25am
Thanks for all the reply guys. Currently I always plug the old girl in for a couple hours before use but having two pens of cattle and a pen of my wife's hay burners while working in town sometimes means I get caught a little off guard and need to feed when I get home from work, meaning she hasn't been plugged in. So I've always just used grid heat for 45 seconds crank a few times grid heat for about 30 seconds then crank until fire (usually pretty quick). Always placed the throttle at what I would consider would be a fast idle, just started wondering if there was some secret I was missing out on! Hopefully soon I'll have a loader on the d17 iv for feeding at last minute so I don't need to start the diesel just to drop a bale onto a feeder.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinball Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2018 at 9:48am
for me starting a diesel at idle is always the best thing to do. a block heater for winter is a must. a lot of people just leave them plugged in during cold weather. it will save your motor over the long haul as warm oil is better for bearings and your motor will start quicker. a diesel motor works off of very small clearances for compression. excess fuel while trying to start it will wash down the cylinder walls. a warm motor turns over faster which is needed for compression. glow plugs do help with starting but they don't help bearings. just my thoughts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Unit3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2018 at 10:08am
The 8070's like low idle. Once you get a pop out of them stop, count 5 Mississippi's and try again, and then again. On the third time they'll start. 8050 on the other hand like high idle. The 7045 has M&W's and it just fires. I doesn't care where the mercury is at. The 7080 HATES Iowa 7 months out of the year. May 1st though September it's pretty good. But if it could find work pulling a cart full of tourists through the streets of Cancun, it would be very happy. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2018 at 10:48am
Technically, on 8000 series with AmBach pumps, open the throttle wide open and pull back to idle and then start it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeO(CMO) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2018 at 11:54am
On the Military Gensets (Buda) used for standby power for remote Radar sites they stayed at operating temperature and required to take full load within 15 seconds or our radar had to go through complete warm up before coming online.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote injpumpEd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2018 at 12:43pm
I rebuilt a pump once for an Onan 3.4L 6 cylinder diesel in a gen set. Most genset diesel engines run 1800 for our 60 cycles, but this one was set up to run 3600, and it was locked in the wide open position. We didn't run it that way, I backed the low idle screw out so it would idle down. But I could not imagine starting a cold engine and having it go right to 3600! lol! They were supposedly piped warm water all the time so it wouldn't technically be cold upon startup. Most diesel engines are at start fuel when you start them, but moving the throttle to about 1/3 way up helps keep it in start fuel while spinning over with the starter, or as it begins firing and tries speeding up on it's own. Some inline pumps use a magnet to hold it in start fuel until you get to 1200 or more rpm, JD uses this. Not only is it holding it in excess fuel, it's also retart timing to start mode. You can pull slightly on the shut off knob to help "break" it off the magnet, but many times they will just die. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2018 at 5:41pm
My latest method of starting the forklift( Buda BD153 diesel) with 'lots' of blowby....
is to turn key on,to run fuel pump,give 4 squirts of ether to teh air intake(aka F150 system), pedal to the floor, turn key to start..keeping it there until engine actually revs fairly high. If cool...this works, when really cold, I need to do this routine twice. Once it's good and hot, only need  turn key to start like a normal guy would do to a normal machine.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Unit3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2018 at 8:08pm
Originally posted by DrAllis DrAllis wrote:

Technically, on 8000 series with AmBach pumps, open the throttle wide open and pull back to idle and then start it.
So I should open it full then back to low idle before I turn the key? I will try it. Thank you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blue924.9 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2018 at 9:08pm
Originally posted by Lonn Lonn wrote:

Starting a Deere 4755, it automatically revs up high then throttles back on its own. I don't care for that method.


If it still has the manual fuel shutoff pull that out and slowly push it in while turning the engine over and it will start and run at low idle without the rev up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveM C/IL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2018 at 9:52pm
You can remove the magnet from the rack rod on the inline Bosch to lower the rev on startup.My 8070 is this way and still speeds up at start but nothing like the Deeres and like Blue says,you can crank while holding shut off and slowly release for no rev.....I'm not aware of any Deeres being short lived because of their start up method,just saying.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tbone95 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2018 at 7:38am
Originally posted by gerkendave gerkendave wrote:

Thanks for all the reply guys. Currently I always plug the old girl in for a couple hours before use but having two pens of cattle and a pen of my wife's hay burners while working in town sometimes means I get caught a little off guard and need to feed when I get home from work, meaning she hasn't been plugged in. So I've always just used grid heat for 45 seconds crank a few times grid heat for about 30 seconds then crank until fire (usually pretty quick). Always placed the throttle at what I would consider would be a fast idle, just started wondering if there was some secret I was missing out on! Hopefully soon I'll have a loader on the d17 iv for feeding at last minute so I don't need to start the diesel just to drop a bale onto a feeder.
Get yourself a Christmas light timer, and set it for a couple hours before chores. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote exSW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2018 at 7:16pm
Running them everyday seems to help also. My primary feeding and snow removal tractor used to be a D282 powered Farmall 560. Good batteries,glow plugs, block heater and starts were no problem 😊.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tim NH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2018 at 8:09pm
I use an outdoor pool timer Dave. They are the heavy duty timer. I set it for 3 hours of heat, starts right up like summer time.  Tim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote modirt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 2018 at 7:22am
I've never been very good at blindly following directions....even worse when the directions run counter to what seems reasonable to me. That would seem to be the case with this cold start procedure.

I have in front of me a manual for a diesel tractor that also says to open the throttle 3/4 to wide open to start......then back off to idle once it does.

Thinking of the reason why, I can only guess that with a cold engine, at normal idle speed, there isn't enough vaporized fuel available to get it to ignite......so you have to "flood it". Then once it fires......enough heat is generated to get a second fire, a third, and so on. Glow plugs would do the same and a block heater even more better as far as providing a high enough temp to get diesel fuel to ignite. And then there was that can of ether......ether being much more volatile ignites at the cold temps.

If an open throttle is common practice to cold start a diesel, I'd never heard of it. Probably because we used to use ether, but later switched to make sure all the tractors that we used that had to make a cold start got electric block heaters on them and they were always plugged in the night before.

I guess what troubles me most about cold starting a diesel is what that cold oil is doing......or not if it's so thick it won't move, not to mention the load on an already cold battery to get that heavy load moving. Perhaps you get around that with 15w-40 oil?

And lastly, when it was really cold (0*F and colder), we started blending #1 fuel oil in the tank to keep the fuel from gelling up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tbone95 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 2018 at 7:35am
Modern oil is amazing stuff.  15W-40 should flow cold better than "old" straight viscosity oil.  If you used 40w or 50w in the heavy work of summer time, and switch to 30w for winter, the modern 15w should still flow much better.  When you gotta start one, you do what you gotta do.  Start up is the hardest thing on an engine of anything at any time of year.  But, we bought them to use them, so you use them when you have to. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 2018 at 7:39am
Again, each engine design has its correct way of cold starting. Different fuel injection systems is one difference. Another is DIRECT injection or PRE-COMBUSTION chamber, of which there must be at least half-dozen different ways to do that.  Manifold heaters and actual glow plugs inside the combustion chamber is something else to consider. For those who think 15W-40 is a Winter use engine oil, try an oil change of 10W-30 diesel oil and you won't believe how much faster the engine cranks on a zero degree morning. Faster cranking means easier starting !!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lonn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 2018 at 8:09am
I use 10W-30 year around on everything most times. The 7050 will get 15W-40 if I know I'm not going to use it in the winter and that one usually gets all the heavy work.
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