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One Wire Alternator Again

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Gary Burnett View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary Burnett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: One Wire Alternator Again
    Posted: 06 Oct 2017 at 7:27am
Well put a one wire alternator on the D10 I've been fixing up some,fired it up and
it started charging immediately.Now the big knock on these always seems to be they need a high RPM to kick in and start charging but the D10 wasn't running a high RPM.So I started looking at the literature with the alternator and sure enough its says it takes
1450 RPM to get it going but the D10 wasn't running anything near that.Then it dawned on me the D10 crank pulley is a lot bigger than the alternator pulley (5" vs 2 1/2") so
the alternator is running 1450 when the D10 engine is running 725 RPM.And most any tractor crank pulley is going to be a lot larger than 2 1/2" so really the high RPM argument
isn't  a valid one as I see it.
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Sugarmaker View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sugarmaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 2017 at 7:34am
I had never done the math but mine start charging without much throttle. So that sounds about right.
Where are the pictures of this D10?
( I saw a D12 a while ago, I think it had a woods mower, was rough all over, What is approx value???)
Regards,
Chris
D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
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DougS View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DougS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 2017 at 7:41am
They tend to drain the battery over time because the regulator is configured such that it takes a little from the battery to keep the field energized when the engine isn't running. One wire alternators are easier to install, but darned hard to find in junkyards. Your mileage may vary as far as RPM needed to start the alternator charging.
 
If I had the money I'd install an externally regulated alternator; smart regulator; AGM battery and temperature sensor on both the battery and the alternator. But that's just me. I'd consider installing it as a hobby.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 2017 at 7:48am
I concur with the draining down the battery complaint. I tried using those single wire Delco's 25 years ago and that was the way they were then......leave the tractor sit for 2 weeks and the battery would be dead.
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SteveMaskey(MO) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveMaskey(MO) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 2017 at 8:15am
To stop the battery draining throw the diode away and get a 3 pole ignition switch. Set it up where the only time the wire where the diode was is hot is when the key is on. Been doing this since the 1980’s and it works good. I started out using a alternator off of a 78 Chevy because that’s what I drove at the time and it would start charging at a fast idle.
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Charlie175 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Charlie175 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 2017 at 8:19am
I got tired of messing with the Genny on my D17. Had it in the shop twice, it would work for a while then stop charging.
So last month I purchased a Mini-Denso Alternator (1 wire) for $66 from DB Electric. Fit right on, and charges on start-up. 
I had one snag as I had a positive ground Pertronix on it, I had to order a Negative Ground unit to switch it over.

I will have to monitor for battery drain



Edited by Charlie175 - 06 Oct 2017 at 8:27am
Charlie

'48 B, '51 CA, '56 WD45 '61 D17, '63 D12, '65 D10 , '68 One-Ninety XTD
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steve(ill) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 2017 at 8:22am
Steve, that works on an alternator with external excitation. They are talking about a ONE WIRE alternator that has a #8 or #6 wire running straight to the battery... but you could put a master cut out switch in that wire... if it could handle a couple hundred amps.
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wfmurray Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 2017 at 8:24am
Put one on my B and it would not charge,Run wire to a nor open swtch . Crank pull switch and turn loose and it is charging . Works good  enough for me. Had big pulley on alt.
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SteveMaskey(MO) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveMaskey(MO) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 2017 at 8:32am
Steve(ill) the alternators I am talking about are 1 wire alternators. They have the one heavy wire going to them. The wire I am talking about is where the diode plugs in, that is where the drain comes from. I don’t know what model # they are you would have to ask Steve @ B&B. I always ask for one for a 78 Chevy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dakota Dave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 2017 at 8:56am
If you have the plug with the sensing wire its not a one wire alternator. its a internal regulated alternator. I built several One wire alternators for hot rods and have one on my 190. you disassemble the internal regulated alternator. Remove the regulator diode stack and replace with a one wire mod one. Put the rubber plug in the hole for the sensing connecter and reinstall it. My 190 needs to get above 1000 engine RPM to start charging. Once it starts it continues charging as slow as it will run. The modified regulator requires the RPM to start when it drops back to zero it stops energizing the alternator stopping the drain when shutoff.
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SteveMaskey(MO) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveMaskey(MO) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 2017 at 9:03am
I stand corrected Dakota Dave, it started out as a 1 wire but now with 2 wires and my mods there is no drain and it will start charging at a fast idle
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steve(ill) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 2017 at 9:03am
Ii don't know for sure what he has, but if you take a 3 wire alternator, there are two small terminals for excitation and +12 volt signal ........... you could run a small jumper from the BIG wire to the +12 terminal, then put a diode between the  +12 and the excitation terminal.... all this would be on a 3 wire alternator and it would act as a 1 wire unit. ........ if you see  a small wire and a diode going from the BIG terminal to the two small spade terminals, that is what happened..... as mentioned, NORMALLY on a 3 wire, you cut the diode on one side and put a switch on it in line.  The switch NORMALLY goes on the dash, but could be at the alternator.
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DougS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 2017 at 10:08am
I'm confused, Steve.  What terminal do you mean when you say "big" terminal and what terminal do you mean when you say "+12 terminal?" It seems what you are describing is a 2 or 3 wire with the exciter line always energized. If not configured as a 1 wire, this would drain the battery especially fast. Once you start kludging other wires and switches you may as well install a 3 wire and be done with it.
 
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Gary Burnett View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary Burnett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 2017 at 11:56am
As far as running the battery down I have 9 tractors with these alternators and
have not had that problem.I never started my Oliver 1600 hooked to the bush hog this Summer while I was making hay for over 6 weeks and it fired right up when I went to
use it.
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steve(ill) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 2017 at 12:04pm
your right Doug, what I describe is a 3 wire alternator.. THe BATTERY lug on the back would have a hot wire going to one of the spade terminals ( just like a 3 wire) and you would have a DIODE going to the other spade ( excitation terminal).. The diode SHOULD keep it from backfeeding like a 1 wire alternator is SUPPOSE to do.. It is always better to have a switch in the DIODE line and open the circuit.
 
I am not saying I condone this........ I always use 3 wire units with a switch and resistor on the signal ( excitation) terminal.


Edited by steve(ill) - 06 Oct 2017 at 12:11pm
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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steve(ill) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 2017 at 12:08pm
 
 
above is a drawing of a 3 wiwre setup. Note the P2 terminal ( spade) is jumpered to the BIG terminal on the alternator... The " exciter" or signal terminal gets power thru a switch and diode ( or resistor or light bulb, etc)........ this could easily be connected with a diode straight to  terminal P2, but the "OFF SWITCH" would be eliminated... making it similar to a 1 wire unit.
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DougS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 2017 at 12:33pm
P2 is the voltage sense. It's needed on a 10SI and such, but not on Delco CS models.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian Jasper co. Ia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 2017 at 12:39pm

Steve's diagram is how GM did it on 70's cars with a warning light except they added a 500 ohm resistor across the bulb. By adding the resistor in the event the bulb should burn out, the resistor keeps the excitation circuit complete but is enough still enough resistance like the bulb to that the ignition system won't get enough current to function.

"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford
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SteveMaskey(MO) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveMaskey(MO) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 2017 at 2:13pm
This is what I use, the big wire is always hot and the one that plugs in is only hot when key is on
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SteveMaskey(MO) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveMaskey(MO) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 2017 at 2:22pm
Sorry about the size, my first time posting pics and I cant figure out how to resize
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Bill Deppe/AC Salvag View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bill Deppe/AC Salvag Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 2017 at 6:08pm
Another factor for the alternator to activate is the amperage of the alt.  The lessor the amps, the easier for it to excite, especially on lower rpm.  First alternators were about 32 amp, as more accessories were added, so was the amperage of the alt
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Resizing is easy, just type in the width of 640 and height of 480 on the picture upload patch.

Gerald J.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Steve in NJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 2017 at 7:23pm
Generally, one wire Alternators need 1200-1400 rpm to build a Magnetic field inside to excite the regulator. Using the larger pulley as Gary has on his D10, actually spins the Alternator fast enough in or near that rpm range to excite the regulator. Most Generator or Alternator pulleys are around 2.5-3" in diameter which would need that faster Alternator rpm speed to start the charging process. That's one of the drawbacks with the one wire. The other is the parasitic draw on the Battery if hooked direct. Now, with the same Alternator wired as a three wire, you have the advantage of a few things. First, after about 400-450 rpm, the Alternator will immediately start to charge. Second, when you have the "Sense" circuit tied into the system, the VR can do its job and monitor the load requirements on board the Tractor. As accessories are turned on, the sense circuit receives the signal and the VR adjusts the output of the Alt. The other circuit of the three wire version, turns on the VR by sending 12 volts to the VR via the key switch. This eliminates the revving of the engine to excite the regulator. There are some one wire Alternators on the market now that excite at lower rpms, but the draw factor still exsists. That's why I always preach on here about a three wire being much better than a one wire. Especially on a Tractor. It really doesn't take much more time to hook up the other two wires. On the real early model Tractors that only have Headlights a Tailight and possibly a work light, the sense wire can be looped around to the output stud and the VR will just monitor the outgoing current. The diode part that was mentioned, is installed in the circuit sending the 12 volts to the VR to turn it on. If a diode is not installed, when the key switch is turned to OFF to shut the engine, current runoff can be enough to energize the Ignition side of the circuit, therefore keeping the engine running when the key is in the OFF position. A diode is a one way valve which allows current to go through it, but not return back. This will keep the Ignition side of the circuit from energizing and keeping the engine running.
On the D14's and up, I usually run the sense circuit right along side the heavy output circuit and run the sense wire to the dash. I always use a Voltmeter in my Alternator equipped wiring systems, and I junction that sense circuit with the output circuit at the Voltmeters plus (+) post. Bringing that sense wire to the dash, where there is a lot of power being distributed all over the Tractor from the dash lets the VR monitor the whole system for load requirements right at the busiest spot on the Tractor. The Battery stays full and happy, and so does the rest of the wiring system. All circuitry is getting full power on board. Makes perfect "sense" doesn't it?  This applies only to the "SI" series Alternators. The "CS" series Alternators are wired a little differently, and need a little more resistance in the circuitry to keep the VR in the unit happy. When I design a system using the "CS" series Alternators (like on a G) I add a resistor to the circuitry and that makes the Alternator happy....  HTH
Steve@B&B
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SteveMaskey(MO) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveMaskey(MO) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 2017 at 7:43pm
Gerald J I can’t see where to type in width and height. I guess I am too dense
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garr View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote garr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 2017 at 10:30pm
Installed a cut off switch to solve the battery drainage problem  Switch was $8 at Harbor Freight  Have not had any additional problems
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Gary Burnett View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary Burnett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2017 at 6:01am
Originally posted by garr garr wrote:

Installed a cut off switch to solve the battery drainage problem  Switch was $8 at Harbor Freight  Have not had any additional problems


That's too sensible and inexpensive solution,no one makes any money with
that.Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DougS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2017 at 6:53am
That works. You can just as easily, and cheaper too, run a wire from the exciter terminal on the alternator to a small momentary push button on the tractor console.
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