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Ford FE intake: Iron vs Aluminum?

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CrestonM View Drop Down
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    Posted: 23 Nov 2022 at 4:11pm
Hey guys! Starting work on the Ford 352 in my 1965 F-250 that's being turned into a 390. Currently it has a 2 barrel carburetor with cast iron manifold, but a few mechanics have suggested going the 4 barrel route, with the idea it would help highway cruising speed fuel economy, so long as the foot feed isn't just stomped down. 
The truck will be a general use daily driver, but it will see 65 mph highways. Whether the truck goes that fast or not is doubtful, but yet to be determined. It's coupled to a four speed New Process 435 transmission with 4.10 differential gears. 
Curious what the thoughts are here...2 barrel vs 4 barrel, and if switching to 4 barrel, is it worth it to go with an aluminum performance intake such as one from Edelbrock, or stick with cast iron? I know the iron intake weighs about 80 lbs, but that's not an issue that will sway the decision for me. I'm just concerned about air flow and warpage of the intake. I've heard the aluminum intakes have a higher likelihood of warping? 
Thought?
Thanks! 
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Ed (Ont) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ed (Ont) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2022 at 4:54pm
First thing you want to do is get an overdrive trans or change rear gear. Unless you want to spend a whole bunch on fuel at todays prices. Go 3.50 with over drive trans or about 3.25 if you want to stay with 4 speed. Is that the same family as 390? So can you just change crank or how are you doing it? Next get an aluminum intake and Holley 4 barrel with vacuum secondaries 600-650 cfm. No bigger! Then go and have fun. Smile
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Ed (Ont) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ed (Ont) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2022 at 4:56pm
Get a 2 plane intake not single plane as you want to make torque. Install a stump puller cam or rv cam since you are into the motor anyway.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NEVER green Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2022 at 5:03pm
  I would go with the modern four barrel, just because of the advancements for tuning and fuel economy, nobody really messes with two barrel.
  
 Know people with 427 medium, high, tunnel port heads, 390 GT heads, no issues with aluminum intakes warping, unheard of.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NEVER green Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2022 at 5:04pm
Originally posted by Ed (Ont) Ed (Ont) wrote:

First thing you want to do is get an overdrive trans or change rear gear. Unless you want to spend a whole bunch on fuel at todays prices. Go 3.50 with over drive trans or about 3.25 if you want to stay with 4 speed. Is that the same family as 390? So can you just change crank or how are you doing it? Next get an aluminum intake and Holley 4 barrel with vacuum secondaries 600-650 cfm. No bigger! Then go and have fun. Smile

  Holley is no longer on the top.
2-8050 1-7080 6080 D-19 modelE & A 7040   R50       
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Michael V (NM) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Michael V (NM) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2022 at 7:00pm
I don't know if you checked yet, but that FE manifold is kinda hi dollar...
Unless the newer hollies are better, I'd steer away from them, one little hiccup and they blow the power valve...they may be better now, I don't know..
Ya might want to look into an aftermarket EFI
If your jus crusin, and not pulling a trailer, I'd stay around a 3:50 rearend ratio,, any pullin or hauling, I would stay around 3:73..heavy hauling on a steady basis, keep the 4:11
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CrestonM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2022 at 7:45pm
Originally posted by Ed (Ont) Ed (Ont) wrote:

First thing you want to do is get an overdrive trans or change rear gear. Unless you want to spend a whole bunch on fuel at todays prices. Go 3.50 with over drive trans or about 3.25 if you want to stay with 4 speed. Is that the same family as 390? So can you just change crank or how are you doing it? Next get an aluminum intake and Holley 4 barrel with vacuum secondaries 600-650 cfm. No bigger! Then go and have fun. Smile
Yes, a 352 and 390 have the same block but different rotating assemblies. Going to bore the block and install a 390 crank, rods, and pistons. 
I've thought about a ZF5 transmission, and there are kits out there to do the swap. The thing I read that made me start to reconsider though is this...correct me if this is wrong....an article was explaining how these old carbureted engines perform at maximum fuel burning efficiency about 3,000-3,500 RPM. By using an OD transmission and dropping the RPMs, the engine is burning fuel less efficiently and the MPG actually drops. Is this in any way right? 
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CrestonM View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CrestonM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2022 at 7:49pm
Originally posted by Michael V (NM) Michael V (NM) wrote:

I don't know if you checked yet, but that FE manifold is kinda hi dollar...
Unless the newer hollies are better, I'd steer away from them, one little hiccup and they blow the power valve...they may be better now, I don't know..
Ya might want to look into an aftermarket EFI
If your jus crusin, and not pulling a trailer, I'd stay around a 3:50 rearend ratio,, any pullin or hauling, I would stay around 3:73..heavy hauling on a steady basis, keep the 4:11
Yeah I've seen they carry about a $500 price tag. 
I don't know much about the Holleys myself, so that's good to know. What else is there? Edelbrock? EFI sounds nice but the pricetag of those makes me cringe a little. I'll see how much the rest of the build runs and go from there. 
It will be a daily driver just cruising most of the time and doing running around the farm. Will pull a trailer occasionally, but probably nothing heavier than my 8N for the most part. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dp7000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2022 at 8:18pm
I’d stay old school for all around economy. I’d try to find a used 4bbl intake (cast or aluminum) cheap. Holley carb used and put a kit in it. Not sure what rear end is in the truck but probably try to find another one 3.25 ratio. Lots of Ford 9 inch around and bulletproof. As long as you keep your foot out of it and cruise/coast it’ll get fair gas mileage. Other options sound expensive to me. Cool project for sure.

Edited by dp7000 - 23 Nov 2022 at 8:19pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2022 at 8:28pm
I had a 1989 F250  (351 V8) with the ZF 5 sp manual... Low gear was about 6 to 1 so GOOD for pulling from a stop... and HIGH gear was about .75 to 1  ............ and it had a 4.11 rear end, but with the OD it was equal to having a 3.25 rear end.... best of both worlds.


top speed in 1st was about 10 MPH and on the highway it would do 90 MPH pretty easy.



Edited by steve(ill) - 23 Nov 2022 at 8:30pm
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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CrestonM View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CrestonM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2022 at 8:43pm
Originally posted by steve(ill) steve(ill) wrote:

I had a 1989 F250  (351 V8) with the ZF 5 sp manual... Low gear was about 6 to 1 so GOOD for pulling from a stop... and HIGH gear was about .75 to 1  ............ and it had a 4.11 rear end, but with the OD it was equal to having a 3.25 rear end.... best of both worlds.


top speed in 1st was about 10 MPH and on the highway it would do 90 MPH pretty easy.




That really does sound like the best of both worlds!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2022 at 9:55pm
The intake, exhaust, and chamber volumes all have to work in concert, with camshaft and compression ratio to match... changing any ONE may make some improvement, or it may make it worse, depending on the rest of the factors.

Since you're bumping it to 390, that means boring it by 0.050" and swapping to 3.78" stroke... that means your piston velocities will be higher, hence the airflow velocity through valves will need to go higher.  Will your valve surface area change?  What's happening with your camshaft profile?

Car guys will jump on it immediately, but in your context, the 4.10 ratio may not be out of reason, that totally depends on the tire diameter that you'll be running... but your highway RPM under that circumstance may be high enough that you won't be able to economize at TODAY's interstate speeds.  If you're swinging large tires, pulling a trailer, and staying under 60mph, that ratio may be fine, but again, it's about having matched volumes, appropriate cam choice, and a compression ratio that'll provide the airflow rates that the piston velocity and valve area need.

In terms of choosing, if it were something you planned on driving every day, I'd suggest adapting a Rochester TBI-220 throttle body from a 93'ish 5.7L GM, a 15psi electric fuel pump, and a MegaSquirt controller... a simple injection system like this will outperform ANY carbeurator in basically every aspect of operation.

The intake manifold you choose, for a carbeurated application, will need to have provision for carb base heat.  Oklahoma has environmental circumstances that lead to carb icing during warmup, even on a sunny 75F day.
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomNE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2022 at 10:26pm
invest in an aluminum intake.   you'll never be sorry.  front end weight is only magnified by a cast iron manifold!
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LouSWPA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2022 at 12:58am
don't buy the 'better fuel milage with a four barrel myth'. 
I am still confident of this;
I will see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living.
Wait for the Lord;
be strong and take heart and wait for the Lord. Ps 27
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomNE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2022 at 5:40am
your not going to get any better mileage out of an FE, no matter what you do!  I just worked on a ton of them, when they were Fords "go to" motor. I actually preferred them to that next generation of engines like the 400 and 429.  they had some weaknesses just like every other engine.   always needed to have the cam retimed and the lifters were all junk and the distributor's were borderline.   then getting to know the block was recast between 64 and 65 from 2 bolt motor mounts to 3 bolts, always came in handy in the olden days.  I would imagine now, that someone makes a mount that fits both.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote exSW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2022 at 7:00am
Unless you want to become a Holley guru use an Edelbrock.  I've run an 390/four speed/ 4.10  F-350 in daily farm use and that Holley was a constant issue. Edelbrocks are set it and forget it carbs. I've slso used several Edelbrock alumnium intakes on farm trucks with zero issues.

Edited by exSW - 24 Nov 2022 at 7:03am
Learning AC...slowly
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fixer1958 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2022 at 7:27am
Stay away from a Holley. Edelbrock is what I would go with. A lot less problems.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote darrel in ND Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2022 at 7:55am
Well over 30 years ago, I built and dropped a 390 into my '69, half ton four wheel drive pickup. That's one project that I did that was the equivalent of a "blind squirrel finding a nut!"
Everything about that pickup was pure pleasure. Had a four speed manual, 3:54 rear end ratios, and would run like a scalded dog! It didn't have a low range transfer case, but nonetheless would climb like a mountain goat. Posi rear end helped there, but no shortage of power. On the highway, would bury the needle on the 100 MPH speedometer! Still have the pickup out here, turned it over to my son. Hasn't been run in quite a few years, lack of time, and interest in Allis chalmers stuff has kind of taken precedence over it.
I had an aluminum edelbrock Sp2p intake manifold on it, and not one regret in the world over that. Now a carburetor man, I most definitely am not! Tried a Holly on it, but could not find enough Holly gurus to keep it adjusted. Some GM nut friends of mine talked me into adapting it to a Quadra Jet carb, and I know that a GM carb on a Ford is wrong on every level, but it truly was a trouble free carb. Not saying that I recommend it, but it worked for me. Lot of things about it, wish I knew then what I know now. The absolute best that it ever run was when I was running an old late 50's vintage auto lite four barrel off a police interceptor car (ok, there's an "old school" term) on it, but with the secondaries sticking open a couple times, I scrapped that carb in a hurry for safety sake. Looking back, I since realized that I most likely could have had the butterfly rod pivots drilled out and re-bushinged to alleviate that problem. Would definitely have given that a try. Anyway, nuff rambling from me, I hope that you have most successful results with this build.
Darrel
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dp7000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2022 at 9:34am
Edelbrock carbs are good. Trouble free. I’ve got a couple. #1407 or 1408 I think. Probably best cost effective way to go.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2022 at 9:51am
Edelbrock AFB Clone is a sweet carb, simple and less issues than a Holley.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote exSW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2022 at 11:37am
Holley's Demon is their version of the old Carter Thermoquad. Another set it and forget it carb.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ed (Ont) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2022 at 6:27pm
Holley is still the best carb but as in all things there are various opinions as you can see above. Price is close on all. Holley is easiest to work on and all adjustments easier. Parts readily available. They make carb to fit any application and have been making them forever. Fuel mileage is as good as any. If you want to go EFI go Holley as well. These guys know their fuel systems!!!! I am running a 650 vacuum secondary on a 372  cu in sbc. Happened to dyne 461 hp and 450 ft/lbs torque. Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PaulB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Nov 2022 at 7:14am
The question that keeps coming to mind for me is: "You think a FORD can get good fuel mileage in any fashion?".  Back in the 70s a friend of mine got a new Ford 3/4 ton P/U at the same time I brought a new Dodge 3/4 ton P/U with nearly identical specifications and his Ford barely got half the mileage I was getting. I agree with many others that in today's world the Edelbrock (Carter AFB clone) would be a better choice for a street carburetor. As for the manifold there are many designs available that are made for street/economy.
 Holley's are fine for racing and power, not so much for economy. They are simpler and easer to tune than Edelbrock's/Carter's, although you can never get a Holley tuned to give both power and ideal economy.  The power valve blowout problem has been addressed by Holley and New ones don't have that issue. 


Edited by PaulB - 25 Nov 2022 at 4:34pm
If it was fun to pull in LOW gear, I could have a John Deere.
If you can't make it GO... make it SHINY
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IBWD MIke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Nov 2022 at 7:56am
This one would work great for what you want. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-7105
When I was young I had a pretty good 390. The intake was off a 428 'police interceptor', I think. It was cast iron, worked great, just heavy. Pretty sure the ones on 428 Cobra Jet's were the same but made of aluminum. Half the weight probably.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ed (Ont) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Nov 2022 at 7:59am
I got 19.5 mpg with my car driving from north of Toronto to Columbus Ohio to the good guys meet. That is per Imperial gallon so about 16 mile per US gal. 3.50 gear and overdrive trans (.68) So the Holley mileage is good. My buddy has almost identical car. He bought the Edelbrock that you are talking about and was not happy with the performance. We played with it a bit. He finally got a Holley 650 mechanical secondary. We put it on. No other changes! Took it for a test drive. Never saw anyone so happy. You couldn't keep the smile off his face. He does a lot of autocross events at the Goodguys shows. You could have bought a cheap almost new Edelbrock that day.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ed (Ont) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Nov 2022 at 8:04am
Yes Mike that would be an excellent choice. As I said stick to a 2 plane like that for what Creston is doing.That is the one I would use. And yes I know it is Edelbrock. Lol. Their intakes are great.Smile

Edited by Ed (Ont) - 25 Nov 2022 at 8:06am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IBWD MIke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Nov 2022 at 8:07am
I always liked Holley's when I was in the 'Hot Rod' phase of my life. Easy to tune and somehow I never had the power valve trouble people talk about.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thad in AR. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Nov 2022 at 9:46am
I have an Edelbrock on my 351 Windsor.
It’s electric choke and starts and runs like an EFI.
That said it just doesn’t seem right. I’ve changed a few things and got it better but still not good.
The low end was much better with a 2100 2 barrel.
I’ll be switching back.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tadams(OH) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Nov 2022 at 3:19pm
 Make sure the 4 barrel carb has the stuff for the kick down from the transmission to attach to, my son put a 4 barrel on my 1975 and it didn't have the brackets for the kick down. It's not problem for me because I don't need any extra for pulling.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IBWD MIke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Nov 2022 at 6:12pm
I did some more looking at parts for these things, wow, there is some really cool parts available nowadays! Holly checkbook though!! It adds up fast. That's why I moved away from the hot rod scene when I did.
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