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D21, Hate to ask this question

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bigal121892 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 24 Jun 2018 at 7:10pm
About 30 years ago, Dad and I were kicking around the idea of buying a D21. The local machinery jockey, talked us out of it, because he said, they are a weak tractor, and can break down just sitting there. This was before the internet, and I trust this guys opinion, ( later he talked Dad into buying a 4W305 over other brands). However I see guys buying these for pulling tractors, and I watch the youtube videos of these things working. My question, what has been the experience of the guys who farmed with them in their heyday.
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acd21man View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acd21man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 2018 at 8:15pm
Well we have a 220 which is similar but heavyweight compared. And I love the thing really rugged and tough

Here is my 220 it’s no 21 but I have a 21 never farmed with it and they arnt as heavy made is my opinion. I need to get mine out and restore it some day

http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=Fd-ksH9d56c
2 wd 45,2 D-17 diesel/gas 3 pt, 220,d21, 4020,2 4430s used daily http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCudh8Xz9_rZHhUC3YNozupw
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Orange Blood View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Orange Blood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 2018 at 8:15pm
I spent many hours on a D21 when I was younger.  It was our heavy tillage (at the time) tractor.  I pulled a 21' Allis 2300 disc.  I also pulled an Allis 13 shank chisel, and harrow.  Tractor had duals, all rears were loaded, and a full set of front weights.  Most of our ground is what we call silty loam along the Platte river valley in Central Nebraska.  We never had a single problem with it, until we stopped using it for much after dad picked up our first 7060.  Once it started sitting, the IP went out, and then later the rears locked together one day, and then it stopped getting used for anything but driving around the yard to keep oil on the gears.  I suspect the years of hard tillage are probably the cause of the locked spider gears, but then one day it just turned loose.  It still doesn't see any action except for very light yard work.  One day we will open the rear and see what it was.
Still on the farm:
WC C WD WD45 WD45LP WD45D D14 3-D17 D17LP 2-D19D D19LP 190XT-D 190XT-LP 720 D21 220 7020 7030 7040 7045 3-7060 N7
Projects: 3-U UC 2-G B C 7-WC RC WD-LP WF D-17D D21 210
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CALEBnOK View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CALEBnOK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 2018 at 8:41pm
Rearends are weak if you don't service regularly. Our d21 has had the hydrualics seperated from rearend and has a hydrualic tank under the right side platform. It has gear oil in the rear. Good on fuel, very nimble for their size.
Would have been nice if they had 540.

My family has had atleast one D21 to farm with since 1973

https://youtu.be/6tMwSUKjZfA

Edited by CALEBnOK - 24 Jun 2018 at 8:44pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CALEBnOK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 2018 at 8:43pm
Nebraska tractor test show the d21 to out pull a 220
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acd21man View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acd21man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 2018 at 9:58pm
Is that right Caleb that they would out pull. That cool you wouldn’t think so but I have also heard that you be 21 pump would turn up a lot like get dangerous because of the rest of the tractor not being capable of handling it is that true
2 wd 45,2 D-17 diesel/gas 3 pt, 220,d21, 4020,2 4430s used daily http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCudh8Xz9_rZHhUC3YNozupw
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CALEBnOK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 2018 at 11:23pm
Ours make 150hp turning less than rated rpm
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DrAllis View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 2018 at 7:28am
  The D-21 series 2 didn't really outpull a 220 if you really look at the test data.    The D-21 only pulled 11,744 lbs max in 4th gear. The 220 pulled 12,360 in 4th gear, which was plowing gear.    One must remember the testing is done on a concrete track with the drawbar being pulled in a straight line to the test vehicle.  Balance is very important, as is the total weight on the rear wheels.  D-21's were weak in the bull gear/final drive/rear axle area. If the HP was left stock (which it seldom was) and it wasn't weighted down heavy, the issues weren't nearly as bad. Late model D-21's had 3 1/4" wide bull gears and older models were 2 3/4" wide.  That alone tells you something. 220's never had any changes to driveline components.
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AC7060IL View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AC7060IL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 2018 at 10:01am
Interesting. So, what rear-end survival tactic was considered by early D21 tractor pullers? Did they leave Series I tractors stock & hope to free spin they're rear ends on the pull track or did they swap in a beefier rear-end from later Series II, 220, others?
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DrAllis View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 2018 at 10:24am
When the tractor only weighs 7500 lbs instead of 15,000 lbs, that is a HUGE advantage. Then, the gears are spun at road gear speeds or more......... Other than needle bearing the differential cross, most D-21's didn't get squat done to change the rear end as a puller.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jiminnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 2018 at 12:55pm
Just my experience, bought a 68 model in 71 with 900 hours, pulled it hard in the field, especially plowing, in 73 with about 1600 hours bull gears went bad, after fixing we dynoed it, 165 hp, we turned it down to 140 and used it another year 1/2, then traded. Just my story.
1945 C, 1949 WF and WD, 1981 185, 1982 8030, unknown D14(nonrunner)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HD6GTOM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 2018 at 3:36pm
I was going to buy 1 30+ years ago. A C dealer talked me out ou it. Said the rear end was too light for the hp they turned out.
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Big Orange View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Orange Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 2018 at 3:39pm
A year after the 220 came out, the part # changed on the inner axle bearing race. That part fixed the bull gear & bull pinion problem, the new race has a square shoulder that goes against the snap ring. the older race had a rounded shoulder, that flexed the snap ring , under heave loads & caused  the bull gear & bull pinion to fail.    
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DrAllis View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 2018 at 4:07pm
But the reality is this......it was a piss poor design compared to the D-19, which had the inner axle bearing on the INSIDE of the bull gear. The 210/220 copied the D-19 design like the D-21 should have been from the beginning.
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d21_man View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote d21_man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 2018 at 4:50pm
The D21 I have is a first model 3400, but it has an update with the turbo, split manifold and larger air intake. I had new bull pinions made and when measuring the old pinions found that they were crowned wrong, so hoping the new ones gain better contact area with the bull gears. Dynoed out at 140 HP.
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Calvin Schmidt View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Calvin Schmidt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 2018 at 7:14pm
A late friend bought a D-21 new. It was a series I that had the Series II conversion kit installed before it ever went to the field. Worked great for years. Back at the dealer one day, it was discovered that it was putting out 190 hp. They turned the pump back to 135 Hp and he had to drop a gear or two in the field. That's when he started to have final drive problems.more torque on the finals in a lower gear.  Most narrow ones were updated. At serial 3595 the wide gears were factory installed. I had a D-21 when I started farming in 1976. In 1979, I installed a used cab that came from a parked D-21 with the rear end apart. I then heard noises in the cab that I never heard before so within two years it went down the road. (serial 3327) I have a D-21 again as well as a 220 but feel much more confident with my 220 in the field knowing the 220 upgrades.

Edited by Calvin Schmidt - 25 Jun 2018 at 7:15pm
Nothing is impossible if it is properly financed
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DrAllis View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jun 2018 at 8:05am
Interesting theory. I'd prefer to think all the years of use at 190 HP wore things out almost to the brink of failure and then more hrs of use even at lower (still too high...128 HP was rated) HP use finally finished it off.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Trinity45 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jun 2018 at 8:23am
I would say the break down issue is only when people did more than what the tractor was rated for.  Those engines can be turned up and will create allot of horse power but the rest of the tractor was not rated for that.  I know a guy who has a 180 that is turned up and has a turbo on it, he pulls a 20' JD disc with it all day long, been running that old tractor for 20 years like that and has not broke down yet.  I bought my 185 off a friend who had it running at 105 hp pulling a 6 row kenzie drill, had 200 gallong saddle tanks on the tractor and 2 150 gallon tanks for liquid fertilizer on the planter.  He sold it to me when he decide to go to a 12 row drill and needed a bigger tractor, we had the ole gal turned back to about 85 hp and she is still running strong today.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveM C/IL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jun 2018 at 9:23am
The guy who does my pump work was a Deere mechanic back in the day. He was telling when 4430's (I think) came out the orders from headquarters were to LEAVE THE PUMPS ALONE!!!!  He turned up all the ones they sold and everything was fine.After the first year or so of service,Deere was experiencing rear end failures from every dealer except the one he was at. At a meeting of service people the big guy ask him why every one but him was having trouble.He just smiled and said he didn't know. The untouched ones were geared down to pull the load and the torque multiplication was tearing them up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DougS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jun 2018 at 9:56am
Interesting, but the amount of torque you actually apply to the rear end will depend on the load you are pulling. In a higher gear the tractor my go faster, but you still need X amount of torque to pull two loads of the same size.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tbone95 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jun 2018 at 10:45am
Originally posted by DougS DougS wrote:

Interesting, but the amount of torque you actually apply to the rear end will depend on the load you are pulling. In a higher gear the tractor my go faster, but you still need X amount of torque to pull two loads of the same size.
Agreed.....I've been sitting here with a furrowed brow trying to wrap around that one for a while now....
 
As long as you're not talking about a LOT of wheel slip, like a tractor pull, the load applies the torque to the axles, the engine counteracting that as you move a steady speed.  Otherwise, seems like you're saying a tractor with 300 ft-lbs of torque uses 300 foot pounds of torque to back out of the shed!WinkSmile


Edited by Tbone95 - 26 Jun 2018 at 10:45am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tbone95 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jun 2018 at 10:51am
Another thought along the same lines, if you turn up the pump for HP, but leave the operating RPM of the engine the same, you're upping the "torque component" of HP.  HP always is a relationship of torque and RPM, in other words, how quickly you can apply the torque. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveM C/IL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jun 2018 at 12:58pm
....I don't think it was the finals but the trans gearing....D instead of C or B? Been a while since I was around a Deere.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tbone95 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jun 2018 at 1:01pm
I just think about it this way, if this were the case, the mantra would be "Turn up that engine or put a bigger one in!  It will take it easier on gear train!!"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Orange Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jun 2018 at 12:42pm
My brother bought A D21, non turbocharged tractor. We updated it with all of the latest improvements, the wider bullgears & bullpinions , the late inner inner axle bearing races. As I was A mechanic at the local AC dealer. He ran that old D21 for 30 years, at 200 HP. With no problems with the rearend.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DougS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jun 2018 at 2:15pm
You can get 200 out of a non-turbo 426?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote grinder220 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jun 2018 at 2:53pm
Originally posted by DougS DougS wrote:

You can get 200 out of a non-turbo 426?
my guess is a turbo was one of the updates
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