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49 Allis g timing issue?

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Bob B View Drop Down
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    Posted: 27 Apr 2019 at 10:49am
Hi all, first time poster. Recently inherited 49 Allis g, in shed 10 yrs or so. Tank cleaned, new fuel lines, carb rebuild kit installed, new plugs, wires,coil. New points and condenser. Engine cranks over, spark to plugs ok. Getting little smoke and a few pops through exhaust but will not start. When #1 @ TDC, the pulley mark is 90 degrees short of lining up with the hole at the bottom. Have tried distributor positioning per the manual as well but no luck. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
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Dick L View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dick L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Apr 2019 at 1:19pm
Welcome aboard to one of the best boards on the net.

Number one cylinder is at the rear of the tractor. Firing order is 1-3-4-2 on the G.

With the number one cylinder at top dead center (TDC) on the compression stroke remove the distributor cap and point the rotor at the number one wire terminal. If it has been messed with you may need to lift the distributor out and reset it so the rotor points the correct direction. Loosen the distributor base and rotate it back and forth watching the points and tighten it back down when the points are closed and about to open. That will place you in time. Make sure of the firing order as this is a Continental engine not an Allis Chalmers.

Edited by Dick L - 27 Apr 2019 at 1:20pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob B Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Apr 2019 at 4:14pm
Thanks for the reply. Did what you recommended and the backfire from the exhaust stopped but just won't start.

I have made it this far with little experience just by reading this fine forum. Confident this will run, eventually πŸ‘

I guess the thing I am most confused about is the timing mark on the pulley. Manual says 6:00 position when #1@TDC but when I stop at #1 TDC using a wire, the mark is at 3:00 on the pulley. Not sure what that is telling me, if anything.
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Dick L View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dick L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Apr 2019 at 5:10pm
Originally posted by Bob B Bob B wrote:

Thanks for the reply. Did what you recommended and the backfire from the exhaust stopped but just won't start.

I have made it this far with little experience just by reading this fine forum. Confident this will run, eventually πŸ‘

I guess the thing I am most confused about is the timing mark on the pulley. Manual says 6:00 position when #1@TDC but when I stop at #1 TDC using a wire, the mark is at 3:00 on the pulley. Not sure what that is telling me, if anything.


Your sure your on the compression stroke? The piston comes up to TDC on both the compression and the exhaust. It is hard on that tractor to hold your thumb over the spark plug hole to feel the pressure.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob B Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Apr 2019 at 6:11pm
Yes sir, on the compression stroke. Not sure what it means though. Should note there is no air cleaner, just the tube. It is clean and I put a cloth over it. Not sure that means anything regarding tractor not starting. Starter seems to crank slow, but likely from overcharging battery while trying to start engine. Starter has not been replaced.

Thanks
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Dick L View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dick L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Apr 2019 at 7:10pm
Originally posted by Bob B Bob B wrote:

Yes sir, on the compression stroke. Not sure what it means though. Should note there is no air cleaner, just the tube. It is clean and I put a cloth over it. Not sure that means anything regarding tractor not starting. Starter seems to crank slow, but likely from overcharging battery while trying to start engine. Starter has not been replaced.

Thanks


The compression stroke means that both valves are closed when the piston comes to the top to compress the air fuel at the point of detonation to create larges explosion possible to turn the crankshaft. The next time the piston comes up one valve leading to the exhaust manifold is open to clear the cylinder to draw the fuel air mixture in on the way back down.

The air filter will cause no problem not being there in starting or running. that filter is to keep dust and dirt out of the engine when running in a working condition.

If your sure you have timed as described you might give it a whiff of starting fluid to see if it will fire.

You might take the distributor cap off and watch the rotor turn to make sure the plug wires are in the correct rotation and the wires are going 1-3-4-2 starting at the crank pully end with 1 with 4 toward the seat going to the engine spark plugs.

a good spark at the correct time and a proper fuel air mixture under compression is all it takes to make the engine run.      
   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob B Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Apr 2019 at 8:25pm
Thanks for the explanation. Will try watching the rotor when it spins.

It is so close to starting compared to when we brought it home a couple months ago. Has kinda gone from a challenge to a quest lol.

The manual does mention to point the coil terminal at #1 plug and point the rotor to the clip farthest from the terminal before putting the distributor in. But that makes the rotor point away from #1 cylinder. When lined up this way it gets pop or backfire thru exhaust. When I change rotor position to point to #1 and move wires accordingly, the backfire stops but doesn't try to start. Puzzling.

Thanks, need all the advice I can get to see this machine run
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Dick L View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dick L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Apr 2019 at 9:23pm
Originally posted by Bob B Bob B wrote:

Thanks for the explanation. Will try watching the rotor when it spins.

It is so close to starting compared to when we brought it home a couple months ago. Has kinda gone from a challenge to a quest lol.

The manual does mention to point the coil terminal at #1 plug and point the rotor to the clip farthest from the terminal before putting the distributor in. But that makes the rotor point away from #1 cylinder. When lined up this way it gets pop or backfire thru exhaust. When I change rotor position to point to #1 and move wires accordingly, the backfire stops but doesn't try to start. Puzzling.

Thanks, need all the advice I can get to see this machine run


Normally when that happens you have it firing on the exhaust stroke. That is called 180ΒΊ off. I am more than a couple miles away so this is the best I can do.

That is correct, the spiral distributor gear turns the rotor as it is installed so it needs to reset until the rotor points to the correct position.

Edited by Dick L - 27 Apr 2019 at 9:25pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob B Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Apr 2019 at 7:06am
Appreciate your patience and explanations, will try these procedures again.

Thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gerald J. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Apr 2019 at 11:16am
The shop manual may have some useful hints.

http://geraldj.networkiowa.com/Trees/Allis-Chalmers-G-B-C-CA-Service.pdf

Gerald J.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob B Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2019 at 8:55am
Thanks for the link. Tried again yesterday and now have created new issue. Starter is cranking very slow. Took battery to local shop and it tested good. Brand New battery cables, 00 wire from welding supply store. Must've worn out starter from trying to get this machine started or something.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dick L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2019 at 10:56am
Originally posted by Bob B Bob B wrote:

Thanks for the link. Tried again yesterday and now have created new issue. Starter is cranking very slow. Took battery to local shop and it tested good. Brand New battery cables, 00 wire from welding supply store. Must've worn out starter from trying to get this machine started or something.


It could be the starter switch on the starter being dirty or scared up from time of use.
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I have known that the advance retard mechanism to setup in advance and give problems.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob B Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 2019 at 8:37pm
Potential new issue. New starter switch helped with slow cranking, re-checked timing, still pops thru exhaust ever so often. Noticed fuel leak from air intake after quite a bit of cranking. Checked float, seems ok. Pulled plugs and they were completely dry. Would think they would have been wet after all the attempted starts.

If I were to try starter fluid, where on this model would I apply it? Air intake tube? Bottom of carb? Little square plug in side of exhaust manifold?

Any help and/or recommendations how to proceed greatly appreciated.

BB
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Don(MO) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2019 at 7:27am
I'd pull the manifold off and clean the mud dobbers out of it and the engine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob B Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2019 at 11:20am
Being in KS, understand muddobbers can be a problem. Just don't see how they could get in there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chaskaduo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2019 at 11:28am
A squirt of gas from a spray bottle might be easier on the engine than starting fluid if using the stuff a lot.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dick L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2019 at 11:28am
It wouldn't matter much where you give it whiff of starter fluid. A whiff is not a stream.

Edited by Dick L - 08 May 2019 at 11:29am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob B Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2019 at 8:59am
Thanks for the replies. Have now re-tried timing settings several times with no luck. Tried whiff of starting fluid up thru bottom of carb and still get nothing, not even a pop. Checked carb float, needle, has spark at plugs, but getting nothing when cranking. Starter cranking speed slowing down again even with new switch and charger on battery (which checks good). Plugs are clean and dry as if no gas or starter fluid getting to them.

Not sure what to try next. Please advise, thanks

BB
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Don(MO) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2019 at 10:08am
Have you run a compression test and checked for mud dobbers they can get inside through the muffler and you said the air cleaner is off?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob B Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2019 at 10:24am
Have not tried compression test. I do get a fair amount of air escaping around my finger when locating TDC. Will give this a try. Looks like should get about 90psi for a good reading on compression.

Air cleaner was off, but tube was covered with a rag. Is it possible for muddobbers to get past/thru the carb to manifold?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Don(MO) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2019 at 10:49am
Originally posted by Bob B Bob B wrote:

Have not tried compression test. I do get a fair amount of air escaping around my finger when locating TDC. Will give this a try. Looks like should get about 90psi for a good reading on compression.

Air cleaner was off, but tube was covered with a rag. Is it possible for muddobbers to get past/thru the carb to manifold?
Yes they can move inside like a pro-stock car can move down a drag strip. lol
I see this happen in the Midwest on old tractors that have sat for years all the time.


Edited by Don(MO) - 09 May 2019 at 10:51am
3 WD45's with power steering,G,D15 fork lift,D19, W-Speed Patrol, "A" Gleaner with a 330 corn head,"66" combine,roto-baler, and lots of Snap Coupler implements to make them work for their keep.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob B Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2019 at 11:15am
Ok, thanks. Will remove manifold and check it out
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob B Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2019 at 7:45pm
Update: no obstruction found in the manifold.

If not getting gas or starter fluid to the spark plug then must still be carb problem?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Don(MO) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2019 at 9:49am
Originally posted by Bob B Bob B wrote:

Update: no obstruction found in the manifold.

If not getting gas or starter fluid to the spark plug then must still be carb problem?
That's great, I hope you also looked in the In and Ex posts too. What was the comp.
 
3 WD45's with power steering,G,D15 fork lift,D19, W-Speed Patrol, "A" Gleaner with a 330 corn head,"66" combine,roto-baler, and lots of Snap Coupler implements to make them work for their keep.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve in NJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2019 at 2:22pm
Need spark and fuel to make an engine run. You have one (spark) but if the plugs came out dry with all the cranking you did, your minus the fuel side of it. Coarse being out of time doesn't help, but if it was getting fuel, it would be back firing all the time either out the intake or the exhaust. You have two problems. TIming/compression or lack of fuel to me. If the valves are to tight, that won't let fuel into the cylinders either. Did you have the cylinder head off? Steve@B&B                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob B Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2019 at 2:53pm
Thank you guys for the response. Seems new (and old) issues keep popping up. Starter is back to turning very slowly after new switch installed. So, wondering is it possible to perform compression test using hand crank?

Had starter tested. They said it tested a little slow but still ok. Beginning to think I may need new starter.

Have not had cylinder head off.... afraid to due to my lack of experience.

Anyways, thanks as always for your help. Any/all suggestions welcome at this point.

BB
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alvin M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2019 at 3:07pm
if ground cable is hooked to batt box had some that the box was not grounded at lower mounting plate
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HoughMade Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2019 at 3:23pm
Starter turning a little slow ill not keep it from starting.  If everything else is right, it will start when it barely turns over.

I think it's still your timing or magneto.

The gas dribbling out after some cranking is just the engine vacuum pulling it up into the throat.  No issue, at least not an immediately important one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dick L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2019 at 4:29pm
One other guy a few years a go has similar problems. As I remember the venture was missing in the carburetor.
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