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Straight Stick plus Gleaner power

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Sugarmaker View Drop Down
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    Posted: 18 Sep 2019 at 8:15am
 Yes I changed the thread title, sorry for any confusion! Was "WD with combine engine project".
Trying to confuse, gather information, and learn all at the same time, as usual! For those following, you can pick up on page 2.
 Regards,
 Chris

Folks,
 I was looking at a WD that has had a combine engine transplanted in it. What are the pros and cons of this combination? Looks like some of the WD parts may have been added back on to get it up and running. 
I know that some of the local antique tractor pulls may frown on this combination since its not stock. I understand that the combine engine may have a little more horse power than a WD and or WD45. Any thoughts are welcome. 
My thoughts would be that it might make a tractor to set up and just have as a pulling tractor. Heavens knows I have enough other tractors already! I dont really need another project but this combo looked interesting.
 Regards,
 Chris


Edited by Sugarmaker - 06 Oct 2019 at 9:02pm
D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2019 at 12:25pm
I was told many years ago, by a retired AC Dealer (he would be 95 today if still living) that at a certain point in time after 1957 (probably the early 60's), the W-series engines (W-201 and W-226) were discontinued and you were forced into purchasing a new G-226 as a Manufacturers replacement engine. At the same time, you could no longer buy a new W-series block and were subbed up to the G-226 block AND CRANKSHAFT. The NATPA organization allows the newer engine in an old WC or WD.  You will gain about 6 HP @1400 RPM over a bone stock WD45. You will gain 6 more HP @1650 RPM for a total of 12 HP.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote john(MI) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2019 at 12:57pm
The old parts are required for the engine to fit and operate correctly.  It is just a D17 engine, so a few more horsepower and a newer engine.  The governor must be readjusted to run like a tractor rather than hi rpm the combine uses.   If I had a WD/45 I really liked and wanted to keep, but the engine was shot, I would definetely go for this engine. 
D14, D17, 5020, 612H, CASE 446
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sugarmaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2019 at 3:18pm
Dr Allis, John, Folks,
Thanks for the information on the Gleaner engine differences compared to the WD. Would be just another toy in the big sandbox!  The additional HP might be desired, but I am having problems getting it to the ground on the current tractors. This might be a dedicated tractor for competition, as the one I just completed it pretty much stock. May try to look at the tractor in next few weeks? As is, it still would need some changes. Could be a new tractor project to either get me in more trouble or keep me out of some, depending on your view point!Smile
If something happens I will get some pictures up too.
Regards,
 Chris

D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CTuckerNWIL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2019 at 4:44pm
Originally posted by Sugarmaker Sugarmaker wrote:

  The additional HP might be desired, but I am having problems getting it to the ground on the current tractors.

 You need to check with your local pulling club(s) and see what size rear tires they would allow. Bigger diameter tires will help getting more ground contact.
http://www.ae-ta.com
Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sugarmaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2019 at 7:19pm
Ctucker,
Yes that is a concern. We have the biggest tires allowed on the WD and the 45 that we pull 14.9-28. Of course we are competing against lots of tractors with 38 inch rubber. That is for the antique classes 3500, 4000 and 4500 lb. But the Farm stock events which are getting more popular, don't seem to have the tire restrictions so there could be a opportunity for increased tire size. Of course every one else is doing the same. Just a game of catch up and then see how your machine does. 
This may need to be moved into the Pulling Section if we get much more detailed about this pulling stuff?Smile
Regards,
 Chris


Edited by Sugarmaker - 19 Sep 2019 at 8:45am
D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2019 at 7:39pm
38 inch rear rubber was available as an option for the WD45 and then use low gear with the G-226 engine. A winning combination !!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carl(NWWI) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2019 at 12:21am
I’ve done 38” rubber, WD pistons in a gleaner block, bigger carb, pulling cam and open rpm and I still can’t win. Idk if the tractors I pull against are more built then what everyone else pulls against or what. I’ve never understood the hype of the gleaner engine in the WD’s, Unless my cam isn’t done correctly but sure doesn’t perform like everyone says they do.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary Burnett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2019 at 2:06am
Originally posted by Carl(NWWI) Carl(NWWI) wrote:

I’ve done 38” rubber, WD pistons in a gleaner block, bigger carb, pulling cam and open rpm and I still can’t win. Idk if the tractors I pull against are more built then what everyone else pulls against or what. I’ve never understood the hype of the gleaner engine in the WD’s, Unless my cam isn’t done correctly but sure doesn’t perform like everyone says they do.


The WD/WD45 hitch set up just doesn't doesn't work too well for pulling a weight transfer sled.The Oliver and Cockshutt tractors have the advantage in that regard plus they are easier to upgrade the HP.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2019 at 5:56am
A stock WD engine had 34 HP at the PTO. A stock WD45 had 43. The D-17 at 1650  RPM without power steering would have been 55 or 56 HP.  If you are pulling in low gear and the tractors that are beating you are running faster than you are (more than 3 MPH), they may well have 70 or 80 or 100 HP. More HP in a tractor that isn't weighted/balanced correctly doesn't win. The drawbar issue is easily addressed. Some rear tires (un-cut) are naturally better than others because of their lug design and bar profile wear and they have to have the proper air pressure for the best possible traction. To blame the tractor for not winning isn't really fair when there are too many other things that may not be as good as your competition. The tractor in question is intended for "farm stock" classes and that's what it pretty much would be. Equivalent HP to a WD45 with M&W pistons in it, which would be "farm stock".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sugarmaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2019 at 9:14am
Carl, Dr Allis and folks,
I have seen similar things in the pulls. Neighbor has a WD tractor that he bought and it was "set up" for pulling and had been pulled years ago. Has a few items removed so that he can move 150 lbs of weight around. He is in the 3500 lb class. He wins or places consistently. No idea what was done to the engine or drive line. (still has hand clutch) He has the old style Firestone tires with full tread. That engine has plenty of power. 
My grandson with his old bone stock WD is usually close to him. sometimes beats him on the right track conditions. We seen a BIG improvement in Nics tractor when we went to the Crop Max 14.9-28 rears when pulling on a wet track. His is a old worn WD engine that still runs good. On a power track you can see the difference in the two tractors at the end of the pull. 
I think Dr Allis summarized it very well. Track conditions, tire type, and weight balancing, are probably the first things to consider. Track conditions you dont have much control over. But sometimes you can pick a spot on the track and get a little more distance/ traction.
Weight balancing seems to be somewhat of a art. I am pretty new to that part of the game. I see other tractors that are real front end light. 
Some tractors seem to do well even if the front wheels are off the ground most of pull.
I know this changes the hitch height retaliative to the sled too. 
Is there a magic balancing combo for the old WD's? 
We usually get beat by some red tractors, or maybe a Oliver.
As you can see I have way more questions than answers. 
Typing it in here and making it happen on the track are worlds apart! 
Hoping we can gain a little bit to make these old Allis tractors move up a little in the classes. 
I will try to share items that I learn and maybe it will help others. 
The good news we (our small pulling group of orange tractor owners) are, having fun, learning about the game,  getting more competitive.

Keep in mind I don't have a tractor specifically for this hobby yet! Have just been skirting around the edges with some old Allis tractors I drug home.

Regards,
 Chris

D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary Burnett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2019 at 10:38am
If you want to pull that size AC I'd get a WC, 9 out of 10 times I've seen a WC in the Same class
as a WD/WD45 the WC was ahead of them.Plus a WC will go into the 3000 lb class.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sugarmaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2019 at 11:06am
Gary,
 Thanks for the suggestion on the WC puller option. I have heard that they are lighter, and I could see that being an advantage too. Do you see the unstyled or the styled versions.
I know some of them have hand brakes and I know nothing about them, except that looks like you need to grow a third arm!Smile
We dont see a lot of WC's pull around here all summer. Maybe 1 or 2 of them.
Is there a tire size restriction on those WC's in a stock antique class? Seems tghe tires may be 24 inch? 

This thread may not get a lot of traction being outside of the pulling forum? But up to this point the tone has been acceptable to me! Some times  these threads get more competitive than actual pulling. If that happens I am done talking about this WD topic. 
Its only a big boy game which can get out of hand.
If this thread needs to move there I understand.
I do appreciate the positive comments! 

Regards,
Chris


Edited by Sugarmaker - 25 Sep 2019 at 8:25pm
D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary Burnett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2019 at 12:07pm
WC had 24 and 28 inch wheels,also 36" was an option.I pulled a WC for quite awhile with a set of Farmall 36" rear spoke wheels and a WD45 engine.Pulled 2nd gear in the 3000 lb class not much else in that class to stay with it,in the 3500 there was good competition.
It was NOT going to out pull Paul Barnsley's CA(LOL).Of course the footnote is every where is different and rules are also different so the first thing I suggest doing is get a copy of the rules from the places you plan on pulling at.That'll determine a lot of what tractor you might want to put in what class. We had a lot of fun at antique pulls win,lose or draw.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carl(NWWI) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2019 at 1:33pm
The hitch is the only thing I haven’t done yet. But it’s solid at 20” and as short as the holes line up. If it’s pulling against stock tractors it’ll hold its own. But certainly isn’t competitive anymore. To me it doesn’t seem like it lugs much. Kinda falls on its face, but that might just be all she has too. Still a fun tractor tho on the right track. Doesn’t like sticky clay at all.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sugarmaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2019 at 8:01pm
Carl,
Well I dont know about the hype of the WD/Gleaner combo either. Sounds like your not very satisfied with it at the present time. Makes me wonder about the text below!:)

Folks,
Another turning point in life. 
Talked to the owner of the WD and we agreed on a price. I think it will work out OK, if the wife ever comes back home! Couple weeks to get things ironed out and maybe the new to me tractor project will start. 

All the WC talk makes me wonder about this decision. But like most things I do, its a learning adventure and I have to do things the hard way most of the time. Nothing ever comes easy for this family. 

When I used to show horses (gaming timed events) I didnt have the funds to go out and buy the best fastest horse. So I continued to tune my skills and the ponies skills to the point there butts tightened an little when I pulled into the grounds with the beat up old farm pickup and the ponies in the bed! They knew if they made a mistake I would take there spot! Won a lot of ribbons and trophies! Made a lot of friends. Played and worked hard at getting better each week!

Kind of looking forward to a new toy. Since we are at the end of our tractor pulling season, I may only have one more opportunity to pull. And since that's a antique pull, I may have to just pull exhibition? That is assuming a lot. One that it even runs half way decent. That would be on October 12. 

Since I haven't looked at the tractor in person I am taking some chance on its condition in all areas. I looked at this pictures and it looks like a old WD that I would drag home! The owner said it did not have good brakes.Great one of the toughest jobs on these!:)  Some engine components look to have been changed from combine to WD or WD45 items.

The package is the running tractor, a usable, pull type, brush hog, and 3 point hitch.

Plan is to try to pick this up when we make a trip to our daughters on October 5th and 6th.
Wonder if the wife will notice the trailer following behind the truck? Nhaaaaaa! Should be fine, everyone hauls a empty trailer on a 4 hour trip!! Smile
OK I have a Allis tractor problem!!! To be continued.........
Regards,
 Chris



Edited by Sugarmaker - 19 Sep 2019 at 8:03pm
D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brampton 02 gt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2019 at 9:19pm
I have been pulling my grandpas wd45 for the past five years. It is a stock tractor with a fresh motor job. I pull with old firestone 28 inch tires. I have a good hitch setup, wheel weights and some other weight racks. It is balanced real nice now but when I pull at 2.8 mph in first gear in the 5500 lb class and the winners are pulling at 8 mpg or even 11 mph I am likely not going to win. I can hang in there with mildly modified Oliver’s and super ms but with the big boys I don’t stand a chance. I do however get lots of compliments from the big boys and they can’t believe how well I can pull with my little 28 inch tires.

I did pull at our local John Deere show and won the 4500 and 5500lb classes against dozens of 2 cylinders. It was a slaughter ha ha. Our allis club was their guest and we sure spanked them until we got up to the 4020s etc.   I won two Steiner T-shirt’s and gave one to my John Deere buddy who didn’t win
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carl(NWWI) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 2019 at 12:32am
I’m just more so trying to help the original poster out so he doesn’t put this motor in and think he’s gunna win first place every pull. Sharing that fact that yes, it’s a good hp gain, but still not enough to get overly excited about. I’ve gone above and beyond just the engine upgrade and still can’t be competitive. But, I see people that have done it and win a lot. Makes me wonder, are the tractors they pull against the same as our local tractors, or is it a pretty much stock class. I’m pulling against 100+hp tractors and it’s not even close! Lol. I’ll never forget the time I pulled on wet clay, pulled the sled less then 50ft 3 times in a row, even with the operator taking more weight out. Tractor was first gear wide open and her tongue was out the second I let the clutch out. Next guy came and went 200+ with a pretty stock Oliver. Nothing changed on my tractor, week before I got 3rd out of 20 plus tractors, only because 4 of them got kicked out. Some days are lucky, some not so much. If you can pull against stock tractors it’s a good combination.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sugarmaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 2019 at 8:35am
Brampton, Carl, 
Folks,
Thanks! I agree the little Allis tractors with stock or even slightly improved engines are not going to be competitive against really hot tractors. I have been at the middle or bottom of the pack.

But I look up into the stands and see 15 old farts wishing they even had a tractor and or were out there pulling! Maybe the pockets are fuller but we are still out there making it happen and most of the time having fun too!

So why get another old WD project? At this time it seems like the thing to do.
Hoping I dont have to put a ton of money into it, to still go out and have fun a couple times a year.  Of course time will tell if this was a smart move. I will try it and post some results and thoughts along the way. I like the Allis tractors from that time period. I guess I may never grow up! These projects are my lower budget fix for the refurb, clean and paint problem I have. The tractors fit the bill.

I dont want a room full of trophies to dust! Thats not my goal. I like to bring things back to good working order and then go out and "test on it" as my hero from Vise Grip Garage says! Check him out on Youtube! You might like it and relate to some of his adventures too.

Carl,
I like that statement where you said its tongue was hanging out! For some reason I get that feeling with the WD45 at times too! Surprised that it did not do well on the sticky track? Ours tend to do better in those conditions but still are not over powering in any classes. 

Brampton,
 Awesome that you were able to surpass the green machines! They may not invite you back!Smile It sounds like you would do well in a speed controlled class. Are those nearby too?
Yea I have gotten blown away by fast hot farm stock tractors. So I just try to do a comparison on how I pulled against some other known pullers. I have to do a lot of work on the balance portion of pulling if I am going to be competitive. Track conditions vs weight placement seems like voodoo to me!:)

Should be another adventure in Allis land! 

Regards,
 Chris


Edited by Sugarmaker - 20 Sep 2019 at 6:23pm
D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
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Folks, 
This is the potential new project, if everything goes right. Forgot to ask if the wheels are loaded?
Regards,
 Chris

D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian F(IL) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 2019 at 2:59pm
Buy it!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sugarmaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 2019 at 6:37pm
Brian, Folks,
That's the plan. In reviewing the pictures the tractor looks just a little better than what I normally bring home. The fenders are not in shreds, grill shell is intact, hood has wrinkles around exhaust, front wheels look intact and the front tires don't look too bad and are holding air! That's a plus. Rear rims look to have some rust staining. Tires are Firestone Field and Road, 13.6-28, some wear but not worn out. ( would have been nice if they were 14.9's! ) has lights and all the normal stuff. Has a pair of snap coupler latches that look like they need spring work. Also has the snap coupler bell.
Engine is a Gleaner type with some orange parts from a WD45 or WD engine in the distributor and governor area. No clue about flywheel change or clutch or the water pump or lower crank pulley rework? Cant really tell about the air cleaner or the carb yet. So that will be a surprise. 
Owner says it runs. How well? That will have to be determined. Then there is the lack of brakes as the owner describes. All pretty much normal old WD stuff.
I would like to do a compression test on this one. I don't have a compression test gage. and good recommendations. Not a tool I would use often.
Thank for checking in on me!
Regards,
 Chris


Edited by Sugarmaker - 20 Sep 2019 at 6:44pm
D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IBWD MIke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Sep 2019 at 8:55am
Chris, compression test gauges are not that expensive. For the amount of these things you have/work on, you should have one. They will reveal a lot! My propane engine varied from 175 to 190 psi. When I tore it down the low cylinder was scored. The engine ran good, though it started very hard.

Hope you get her home, time for a new project thread!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sugarmaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Sep 2019 at 2:14pm
Mike, Folks,
 Thanks I will do a little research on the various engine compression testers. Yes I have enough units to try it out on. Smile 
Will try to keep up with posting if anything changes on the old WD-G "sticky-situation".
Regards,
 Chris
D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 2019 at 11:52am
Competitions involve many variables.  In any sort of competition, the ONE item that determines wholly the success of a competetor, is EXPERIENCE.

Champion bicyclist Eddie Merckx, when asked what the secret to being a successful competetive cyclist, his answer was:

"Ride lots".

I'll start by noting that I am not a 'competition tractor puller'.  I don't pull sleds often.  I pull trees, vehicles, an occasional building... large rocks.  I rarely get 'good track' conditions, I don't have luxury of putting it on a dyno, running special tires, or adjusting weight... and I've had some bad pulls, and I've had some good ones... and I've broken parts, and had engine problems.  I've also spent WAY too much time and money working on machines, but there's a bunch of other guys here that I'm certain will admit to doing much worse.  I've committed even worse sin... I've been the enabler of guys who spent more time and money... and for some strange reason, I feel guilty, but not bad, about being participle to their substantial investment in what potentially becomes a very, very expensive hobby, in both money, time, and of course... social impact.   I'm not without experience in other competition circumstances... I fortunately avoided competition bass fishing, and narrowly escaped becoming 'professional' in cycling and music.  The fortunate result, is that I can still enjoy these things as avocational.

There are many factors involved in any competition, and tractor pulling is one of them.  First and foremost of ANY competition, is the RULES.  It doesn't matter what you do, if you don't know the rules, and you aren't absolutely pushing every limit of every edge of every rule in the book, you won't win.  Why?  Because those who compete against you, and beat you, ARE.

For example, let's say your rulebook says that 'farm stock' means that any parts you use, need to be OEM parts... so you're using OEM parts.  The guy you're running against, beats you every time.  If you take apart your engine, you find factory stock parts for that tractor.  Take apart HIS, and you find that he's got connecting rods that are significantly longer, came from a totally different engine.  Yep, but they're 'factory stock'.  The RULES didn't SAY that they had to come from the SAME MODEL...  but using the longer rod, with a stock piston, increased his compression ratio by 2 whole points, and now his 34hp engine is at 9:1...

Understanding PHYSICS is extremely important.  I can't begin to count how many guys argue with me, convinced that running a smaller-diameter drive tire will yield 'more pulling power'...  when fifteen minutes at a county fair track will demonstrate otherwise... and when I point them to the Wismer-Luth white paper on agricutural traction prediction, they refuse to take time to even SKIM it, and the myriad of similar studies that followed.  Robert and Harold's work on traction prediction was all based on empirical data... thousands of tests, repeated over and over, to determine what factors generated the greatest amount of effective drawbar pull, and unlike what happens at a competition tractor pull, Robert and Harold PUBLISHED it, put it right out in the open... and their deconstruction of the mechanical process of tractive efort development proves very clearly how the tire diameter, cross section, driven, and undriven tire load and size affect the developed drawbar pull.  Then, they went one step further, and identified how SLIP RATE and additional horsepower related to increase in drawbar force... meaning, once the tire is spinning, how much more horsepower input (increased slip) yields a given amount of addition drawbar force.  With that data, you can enter in all the variables for your tractor, your setup, and your horsepower, and you WILL get a very accurate prediction of what your tractor's limits of drawbar force WILL BE... and if you're not meeting it, you can be certain that something you've plugged in, ain't being met.

As for the Gleaner engine, I think people misunderstand the horsepower numbers.  There may be subtile differences between the tractor, combine, and power unit versions of any engine, but the biggest difference, is in how they're 'set up' for particular service. The tractor engine has a wide-range variable governor... it will govern from just above idle, to some high-idle limit.  The combine engine is NOT set up that way.  It is either at low idle, or high idle, or working load.  it is NOT intended to govern at say... half-speed... because it is set up specifically for a machine who's input speeds NEED to fall in a certain window in order to operate properly.  Take into account that horsepower ratings of a tractor come in several different flavors, and the combine, or any power-unit application, are TOTALLY different, it's clearly a function of comparing apples, to oranges, to my dirty socks.  DrAllis is right in that the advertised number, and under some dyno circumstance may show an additional 6hp, it doesn't mean anything at a track.

For better understanding of why, consider a G226 power unit driving a 40kw AC generator.  The governor has ONE operating speed...  1800rpm... driving a 4-pole generator, that yields 60hz.  The governor is set to run at 1850rpm (that's 62hz) at 'high idle' (meaning, full speed, no load) and when under absolute max full load, the governor is at WFO at 1785rpm (59.5hz).  IF the generator is producing the full 40kw at WFO@1785rpm, you could substantiate that the engine is developing 53.64 flywheel horsepower, or 157.82 ft-lbs at the flywheel...

Do the same for the same engine, running a 30kw 1200rpm (3 pole) generator:  62hz is 1240rpm high idle, and 1190rpm at full load/WFO...  that comes out to 40.23hp at 1190rpm for 177.55 ft-lbs at the flywheel...

WHICH ENGINE is more powerful?  Answer is... neither...  AND... the calculations above, are all wrong, because at NO LOAD, it takes a certain amount of engine horsepower JUST TO RUN.  It requires power to spin the cooling fan, even when the engine isn't hot.  It requires power to pump oil through the engine... and it requires power to develop enough excitation energy to generate and regulate electricity.

Now let's say the G226 develops 166ft-lbs at 1800rpm, for 57hp.  We yank this engine, work it over, and find out that when we spin it up to say... 4100rpm, it develops  79 ft-lbs, for total of 62hp...

Does the fact that it's output of 62hp @ 4100rpm for 79 ft-lbs is a more competetive result than 57hp at 1800rpm for 155 ft-lbs?   Not necessarily.  You'd need the added drag of lower gearing in order to put that 4100rpm in proper accordance with ground speed... in the end, your wheel horsepower (due to added parasitic losses of gearing, windage, etc) come out LESS.

The difference, is in how they're set up, and how they're rated.  Nobody with a brain would buy a generator based on engine FLYWHEEL HORSEPOWER, and you certainly wouldn't get good performance running that generator engine's governor (or carbeuration, or ignition advance, or camshaft, intake, and exhaust) on a tractor.

Rarely recognized fact- when an engine is set up for a generator, it is set up so that peak torque occurs AT 60hz, and falls off INCREDIBLY at 62hz.  Why?  Because it helps make the engine both reactive (to load change) and stable AT the same time.  If an engine can't breathe outside it's governed range, it WON'T go there.

So keep that all in mind when comparing engines.
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sugarmaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 2019 at 7:11pm
Dave,
 Would be nice if my pea brain could wrap around a fourth of your information! Yikes! I was hoping to just get something with a little bit of improvement and test on it a little!:)
Thanks for the information! Probably one of the most thought out and through responses.
Now to figure out how to try and use your data in the future. IIRC I didnt do well in physics! 

Looks like I have a lot to learn about some of the Allis engines and there set up variables.
 Not sure how far I will or can go. Again its time and money we are spending. I learned a lot on just working on the last WD45 and taking most of it apart and putting it back together. (With a lot of good help and suggestions for Allis Forum folks!)

I also have enabled many friends to spend gobs of money on making maple syrup. A very simple process that grows/ morphs, out of control resulting in large expensive stainless steel items to process maple syrup faster than you did last year. When that happens then I advise them they need more maple trees and the cycle starts again.  And it can be competitive also. County fairs judge your maple syrup and products against other competitors. As mentioned Rules are very important. You have to be doing a lot of things right to score a blue ribbon during judging. Often a local well equipped sugar house can have equipment ranging from $5000 to $150,000. 

Regards,
 Chris


Edited by Sugarmaker - 22 Sep 2019 at 8:13pm
D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JayIN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Sep 2019 at 7:59am
The main thing is to have fun! I try to beat myself a little each time I pull. Do a little better than the last time out. Fine tuning each time. Constant improvement. I KNOW the Olivers are going to pass me by.Last time out I was 4th out of 18. VERY HAPPY!!!
sometimes I walk out to my shop and look around and think "Who's the idiot that owns this place?"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Sep 2019 at 9:48am
Chris, you're not the only guy I know that's got sappy distractions...  about ten years ago, I published a method to convert three-phase welders to single, and one of the first guys to do it was a maple producer towards Syracuse... and he did it to more than one machine, because he had to have one set up for stainless, the other for plain, and I believe he converted one for aluminum, so he could make all his maple production equipment.

His system was really cool... he had a network of plumbing coming from his taps, down the hill, under the highway, to his processing house, and some huge semi-trailer retention tanks... it was awesome.

Main thing to realize, guys, is that there's no 'magic bullet', and an engine is only what it's 'set up to be'... the numbers you read, are only relative to the circumstance under which they're written.  I've got a P30 step-van that I use for hauling my band's stage equipment.  Originally had a 6.2, the fleet was changed to Cummins 4BT, and when decommissioned, a buddy of mine bought it for the 4BT for a Jeep.  He didn't need the engine right away, so I drove the truck with the oil-burner for about three years 'till I'd acquired and built up the replacement powerplant... I pulled the diesel and sent it back to my buddy.

The 4bt was rated 114hp, and yielded about 290ft-lbs at 1600 or so, driving a TH475 3-speed, final 1:1.  Governed at 2600, with the truck's 4.56 gears, weighing loaded right at 10,000lbs, would jump to 30mph in about 10 seconds... and it'd take another 15 to get to 54mph, at which time, the injection pump hit governed limit.  It managed about 13mpg... but it was a long, slow ride from Davenport to Des Moines.

The engine I swapped in, was a 1976 Buick 455 rescued from a farmhouse sedan that was on a one-way trip to the demolition derby arena.  While it isn't a diesel, and was NOT the highest output of the BBB's history, it isn't weak.  The factory versions showed up in the 360+hp range, my '76 was rated in the post-emmissions period for something like 150hp... but it whomps out incredible torque (almost twice the Cummins) and will spin nicely at 4000+rpm all day... and it weighs almost 500lbs less than the Cummins driveline... which was very important to me, because the truck is loaded to it's GVW limit... that extra 500lbs is much welcomed 'breathing room'.  Oh, and the heater works in the wintertime.

The whatever-150ish hp rating means nothing... actually, the 114hp Cummins rating meant nothing either.  Karl Keikhaefer put it best when he said something to the effect of 'horsepower and torque don't mean a thing, if the engine won't run at the speed you need it.'.  What he was referring to directly, was an outboard motor... when you hit the throttle of a boat, it takes substantial torque to get a planing hull up on top of the water... but once up, the drag drops substantially.  It then requires the engine to spin faster, and faster, as the boat speeds up.  As the hull develops more lift, it climbs up, one chine at a time, and each time, hydrodynamic drag drops... but as speed increases, WIND drag increases...  and if the engine's torque curve drops off at a given point, then all the horsepower numbers are irrelevant- the boat will not go any faster.

Such was the case in my band truck- the diesel was goverend to 2600.  If I would've put an overdrive on it, the drag from the overdrive gear, combined with wind drag (breadbox aerodynamics) would have gotten me nowhere, because there simply wasn't enough torque to make up for the static losses at that power point.

Finding an engine that created equivalent or greater torque from idle up to 2600, but having no governed limit, was the key... and the 'wheezy' emmissions-rated Buick now throws it right to 75mph with drama-less authority (and a S#!T ton less noise).

The combine engine will do just fine, as long as you put the tractor governor on it.  I doubt they changed the manifold or camshaft.  Flywheel, starter, mebbie some other parts that may/may not work due to minor changes... but I'm certain there's nothing magic about the combine and power unit engines that automatically give you 6hp for free.  Slap a Moroso sticker on it, and polish the valve cover for the same effect.

As for learning pulling, the simple facts are best:
 
Know the rule book well. 
Observe what other guys are doing.  They're doing it for a reason.
If you ask, Mebbie they'll tell you why... but don't expect it to be truthful...
Make your tractor as light as you can, SO you can compete in multiple classes
  AND...
So you can put the weight WHERE you want it, WHEN you want it there.
The laws of physics ALWAYS supercede the laws of man. 
Punishment for even the slightest violation of the laws of nature, often result in very swift capital punishment, without a trial or jury.  Expect things to go wrong, so plan on it, and keep everyone safe. 
Have someone else hold AND DRINK your beer, so that when you do something really stupid, you can't blame it on any alcohol, unless it was in the fuel tank.

And remember:
The only replacement for cubic inches, is cubic money.  Competition, especially in powersports, is like war-  it's economic...

So if it's something you enjoy doing on a low budget, find happiness in competing only against YOURSELF.  You and the machine, against the track and the sled.  Regardless of how THEY see it, always see the guys that go ahead and behind you, are along side you, competing against the track and the sled TOO.
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sugarmaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 2019 at 8:18pm
Folks,
Brief update: Currently on track for tractor viewing October 6th. Will try to remember to take some pictures. The wife is not too keen on another project! I don't really blame her! I think she is catching on to my "projects" and how they use some of our resources, and morph into these juygunjious episodes of me whining and sniveling about tractor stuff!Smile It will be OK. Whats the worst that could happen? You can fill in the blanks!:)

I kind of like Dave's approach that pulling against yourself and continuous improvement are some of the only things we have control of. 

At this time I dont have any plans. One step at a time. Get it home will be the first thing. 
Short term goal after that would be to try to pull the WD in the antique pull on October 12th. Not sure If I will do much to it prior to the last pull of the season?

 It might become the snow plow tractor for the winter?

 Here is another shot of the WD. Seems to have most of the original equipment still attached, which for me is a new concept!:

Current owner did say the brakes are real sketchy. One side may work a little. That should help when if get down to the loading part!
Regards,
 Chris



Edited by Sugarmaker - 25 Sep 2019 at 8:22pm
D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sugarmaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Sep 2019 at 9:00pm
Folks,
 Coming up on the road trip this weekend to visit family and hope to look at this WD tractor. Will be my first longer distance haul with the wife, the F250 and the fifth wheel trailer. Should be a interesting adventure! Thoughts of the Beverly Hillbillys comes to mind!:)
Kind of looking forward to seeing this old WD up close. Plans have not solidified for the future of this tractor. if we do bring it home? So I may be asking a bunch of questions.
Regards,
 Chris
D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
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