Cockshutt 50 project - Buda 273
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Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
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URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=97712
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Topic: Cockshutt 50 project - Buda 273
Posted By: Ngrant
Subject: Cockshutt 50 project - Buda 273
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2014 at 5:41pm
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I have taken over a basket case Cockshutt 50 with the Buda 273 engine. I am looking at what I hope is a g262 Allis Engine. I think it may have 2 oil filters on it. Is it possible to be a 262 with 2 oil filters or does that automatically make it a G230? It is a Gleaner engine I am told. The Cockshutt 40 I repaired last year is now running well. I love the sound of those Buda Allis 6 cylinders!!  
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Replies:
Posted By: Don(MO)
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2014 at 6:07pm
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Post a shot of the left side please.The core plugs on the right side are not used in the Allis engines. ------------- 3 WD45's with power steering,G,D15 fork lift,D19, W-Speed Patrol, "A" Gleaner with a 330 corn head,"66" combine,roto-baler, and lots of Snap Coupler implements to make them work for their keep. |
Posted By: Ngrant
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2014 at 8:07pm
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Don, that is original 273 engine in it. It needs a repair sleeve. The Allis Gleaner engine I have not got it home yet. If it is a 262, I will use it as is. If not, I will use the crankshaft plus other parts. Regards Neil 
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Posted By: MACK
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2014 at 9:43pm
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I think the 273 used a 230 AC crank. The 262 will put the pistons to hi.
Don't think a 262 ever had two oil filters. WD45D and 301D used two. MACK
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Posted By: Lester
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2014 at 5:31am
| Have someone counter bore your cylinders and put in a sleeve if cylinder wall is too damaged. The 273 is the best blocks because they do not have to worry about sleeves dropping. |
Posted By: Don(MO)
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2014 at 9:11am
I think Lester is spot on, if your 273 block is not broken I'd bore it out and install dry sleeves to get her back to the stock bore. Like Mack said the 262 crank will not work without a lot of piston rework. ------------- 3 WD45's with power steering,G,D15 fork lift,D19, W-Speed Patrol, "A" Gleaner with a 330 corn head,"66" combine,roto-baler, and lots of Snap Coupler implements to make them work for their keep. |
Lester wrote:Posted By: Ngrant
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2014 at 10:33am
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I think I will put in one repair sleeve in the one cracked cylinder wall if the Allis engine is a G230 or a B230 and use its crankshaft as it is supposed to have been recently overhauled. It should fit I would think?? I have some 50 diesel piston I will use when I get them out of the seized 50 diesel block I have. If the Allis is a 262, I will use the whole engine and shelve the 273 block for future use. Thanks for the replies. |
Posted By: DonDittmar
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2014 at 5:44pm
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I see the basis of a d19d puller, but we will save that for another spot on the forum ------------- Experience is a fancy name for past mistakes. "Great moments are born from great opportunity" 1968 D15D,1962 D19D Also 1965 Cub Loboy and 1958 JD 720 Diesel Pony Start |
Posted By: Calvin Schmidt
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2014 at 7:22pm
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I remember some talk that a 262 crank in a 273 block will give you 292 (3) cu.in.
Guy was running a WD-45 diesel puller with that combo. Said that 273 blocks were gold and hard to find. A-C built 273 diesel marine and genset engines. I saw one with an inline injection pump. ------------- Nothing is impossible if it is properly financed |
Posted By: Ngrant
Date Posted: 14 Nov 2014 at 8:13pm
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Thanks for all the input. I will need to wait a couple of weeks to get the gleaner engine home and see what I have. The differences in the 262 and the 230 with the different stroke - was that taken up in the piston compression height or the rod length if the block is indeed the same part number? If it is the pistons, I suppose machining 1/8" of the diesel pistons would make the 262 crank and camshaft combo work for 291 or so cubes - all that power to drive around the back yard!! Here is a picture of the 40 complete and the 35L I have also. 
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Posted By: MACK
Date Posted: 14 Nov 2014 at 9:30pm
| The cam shaft will be a problem with the 262 crank. There will have to be flat places ground in 230 cam for rod bolts to clear. MACK |
Posted By: Claus
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2014 at 12:05am
| I used to have a Black Hawk 40 gas, overhauled the motor and sold it. Always wondered if a Chalmers 301 could have been shoehorned in there? |
Posted By: Ngrant
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2014 at 12:24pm
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Thanks for the input guys. When I get it all together I may have a 273 block I wiould sell, I should know better in the new year as I gather up the pieces Waiting to pick up the gleaner engine in a couple of weeks Fingers crossed that it is a 262 and runs well, but time will tell. Regards Neil |
Posted By: Calvin Schmidt
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2014 at 3:04pm
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My brother was going to install a Gleaner 262 in a Cockshutt 40 years ago for tractor pulling but soon lost interest in both. You will have to use the front cover from the 273 on the 262 for mounting and then there are dozens of little things to deal with. Good Luck. ------------- Nothing is impossible if it is properly financed |
Posted By: Ngrant
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2014 at 7:59pm
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Thanks very much. Here is the link to the guidelines, which I would guess would work in reverse to install a Ccckshutt Buda engine like a 40 or 50 into an Allis. https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?resid=A1DD97C33B89181A!4039&ithint=file%2cpdf&app=WordPdf&authkey=!APfel1QkOTnDDd0 |
Posted By: Ngrant
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2014 at 11:21am
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I am going to pick up the Gleaner engine on Sunday. Is there a part number/code or anything which identifies it as a 230 or a 262 I will be able to see on the engine? Anything else I should watch for? Regards Neil |
Posted By: Travis(NE)
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2014 at 9:12pm
| From my past experience the 230 will have the water pump on the head mounted with one 1/2 capscew and a 262 will have the water pump on the block with four 3/8 capscrews... Also a 230 uses a bypass oil filter whereas a 262 will have a full flow... |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2014 at 9:22pm
| On the riveted engine tag it will say G-230 or G-262. Both of these engines are probably new enough to have the water pump on the block and full-flow oiling system. The G-230 will come from the model A or A2 combines and the G262 will come from the model C or C2 or old F combine. |
Posted By: MACK
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2014 at 6:31am
| Old A had water pump on head, later A and A2 had water pump on block. MACK |
Posted By: Ngrant
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2014 at 11:35am
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I wonder if the b series had the water pump in the head and all the G series had it in the block? Sounds like the G262 was built during and after the G230 was discontinued? Was there a G230 full flow made at all? is there an outside tell tale difference to signify a full flow model? The G230 would be about similar power to a 40 Cockshutt with the B230 I would guess. Thanks Neil |
Posted By: Don(MO)
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2014 at 2:05pm
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All the B230 combine engines had the water pump in the head with the by-pass oil system. All the G-230's and G-262's combine engines had the water pump in the block. All the G-230's and all the G-262's combine engines had the full flow oil system. Please post a shot or two of your G-262 combine engine when you get it home. ------------- 3 WD45's with power steering,G,D15 fork lift,D19, W-Speed Patrol, "A" Gleaner with a 330 corn head,"66" combine,roto-baler, and lots of Snap Coupler implements to make them work for their keep. |
Posted By: Ngrant
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2014 at 3:10pm
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Thanks very much Don. I will post some pictures for sure. Was there ever a B series 230 used in a Gleaner would you know? Regards Neil |
Posted By: Ngrant
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2014 at 3:13pm
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I see you already answered me Don. Sorry. Did the B series combine engines have a double oil filter and or the later large manifold allis used? Regards Neil |
Posted By: Don(MO)
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2014 at 3:31pm
The first B-230 gas engines had one canister oil filter with two external oil lines and had a smaller manifold, some of them had a one piece in/ex manifold too. I have some of old combine B-230 engine parts laying in the back of parts trailer. ------------- 3 WD45's with power steering,G,D15 fork lift,D19, W-Speed Patrol, "A" Gleaner with a 330 corn head,"66" combine,roto-baler, and lots of Snap Coupler implements to make them work for their keep. |
Posted By: Ngrant
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2014 at 11:55am
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Hi Don. I got it home now and it is on my trailer yet. Here are a couple of pictures of it. It has no tag on it and no date code either that I can see. No plugs on the rh side or even marks like the b230 had where they could and maybe should have put frost plugs. The right side is all smooth. I have a picture of a G262 looking similar while a picture I have of the G230 looks like the B230 on the right side, so I am hoping it is a 262 - any thoughts on if it is? Thanks for your help. My first thing I will do is take the compression after I put a little oil down the cylinders and then work on getting it running. It has been as few years since it ran I think. Regards Neil   
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Posted By: Fields
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2014 at 9:04pm
| I've been working on a coop e4 swap to allis g262. Google cockshutt 40 pulling. If you find a pdf from the antique tractor pull guide. The detailed instructions are on it. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2014 at 9:25pm
| That's a G-262 with that big Bendix carburetor on it. |
Posted By: Ngrant
Date Posted: 26 Nov 2014 at 9:05am
Yes thanks, I have read through that. It is written by a few Cockshutt gurus so I know it is going to work. Regards Neil |
Posted By: Ngrant
Date Posted: 26 Nov 2014 at 9:10am
That is music to my ears. I should be about the same HP at 1650 rpm as the 273 with the higher compression of the 262 to make up the 11 cu inch. When I do the conversion, I will have the oil pan off so I will know for sure. I just need to work through that little detail of getting it running first!!! It is supposed to run though and I can't imagine it being stored away for these years if it was not in decent condition. Murphy's law does play a role in these things though and it seems sometimes he was an optimist. Thanks Neil |
Posted By: Ngrant
Date Posted: 26 Nov 2014 at 9:01pm
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I took the compression tonight. Some valves can't be closing. 130, 30, 15, 60, 50, 40. Number 1 got my hopes up! Next is to take the valve cover off and see if any valves are stuck open. Neil |
Posted By: Fields
Date Posted: 26 Nov 2014 at 10:19pm
| My allis 262 cam gear was able to use a gear puller. And install the cockshutt plate . Then put the gear back on. That way I didn't have to pull the camshaft. Or the oil pan. |
Posted By: Ngrant
Date Posted: 27 Nov 2014 at 8:47am
Great tip. I will be trying that for sure. Thanks. How did your Gleaner engine work out in the end? Any pictures? I joined and Allis group on Facebook last night to see what all I can learn there. Thanks. Neil |
Posted By: Ngrant
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2014 at 9:25pm
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Progress on the gleaner engine. I took the valve cover off and put PB Blaster on the valve stems and tapped the valves down with a hammer and now have 120 or better across the 6 cylinders compression. On the water pump, mine seems to make the fan sit really high, not like the water pumps I see on Ebay for the G 262. Was there a high and a low model and are they interchangable? I am thinking this will put the fan too high up compared tot he B273. Next moves are to get the fuel pump to work, get an oil pressure gauge on it and then get it running on my trailer at an idle to see oil pressure, smoke, etc. Fields, when you pulled the cam gear off, was it difficult to get back on? Neil |
Posted By: Fields
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2014 at 10:41pm
| I was able to get a fan to work. It was a smaller 6 blade one that I had to enlarge the mounting holes. The gear went back on with a small taping and the bolt. Make sure the timing marks are lined up before you use a gear puller. And the still line up when you put it back on. I believe the govenor gear has to be used from the cockshutt engine. |
Posted By: MACK
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2014 at 8:22am
| Gears should all be the same. MACK |
Posted By: Ngrant
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2014 at 8:39am
Did you heat the gear to get it back on? How did you support the camshaft to when you were driving the gear on or did it go on easy enough that was not a problem? the gleaner oil pan work ok as is? I do notice the drain is at the side, but I guess that would be ok too. Thanks. Neil |
Posted By: Calvin Schmidt
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2014 at 10:43am
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You may need to get a water pump for a D-17 diesel. The fan will be a lot lower.
Been there done that. ------------- Nothing is impossible if it is properly financed |
Posted By: Ngrant
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2014 at 1:32pm
Would that be the late D17 Diesel? The early one was in the head same as the cockshutt one which there in no provision for on this engine. I am still wondering if there are any distinguishing features other than the big carburetor which determines this is a 262 and not a 230? Regards Neil |
Posted By: Ngrant
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2014 at 1:50pm
I think I may be understanding the water pump now. Looks like I need the first water pump and the second one I what I have now? 
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Posted By: Fields
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2014 at 10:10pm
| It went on easy. No heat. |
Posted By: Calvin Schmidt
Date Posted: 30 Nov 2014 at 7:09am
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Yes the water pump you likely need is for a late D-17 diesel (Series III or IV) with the waterpump in the block. My mechanic just finished installing a late engine into a series I D-17D. We used a Gleaner 262 block and ran into the high fan water pump problem with the combine water pump. Years ago I had the wrong water pump sent for my D-17 IV diesel resulting in the same problem. ------------- Nothing is impossible if it is properly financed |
Posted By: Ngrant
Date Posted: 30 Nov 2014 at 9:53am
Very encouraging! no issues with using the Allis oil pan at all? Thanks Neil |
Posted By: Fields
Date Posted: 30 Nov 2014 at 9:25pm
| Nope. None. |
Posted By: Ngrant
Date Posted: 01 Dec 2014 at 3:13pm
Great to hear! Thanks again. Did you use the big combine carburetor or the Cockshutt one on the engine? I am thinking I will use the Cockshutt one as I have bought the Kit for cockshutt carbureto to AC manifold from Cockshutt parts guy par excellence Phil Heisey. I do look at that big carb and think it would really fee that engine all it wanted!! I will likely be just driving it around the backyard though... Regards Neil |
Posted By: Ngrant
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2014 at 2:22pm
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A general question on B to G series engines. If I understand well the B series all had A water pump in the head a la Cockshutt 30 40 and 40 and WD 45 Diesel, first gen d17 diesel as well as the combustion chamber in the head like these models except maybe for the D17 diesel?? All had bypass oil filtration G series - change was made to have the combustion chamber in the piston a la AC Power Crater design and the water pump was in the head except for the early D17 diesel which maybe are B series engines??? All G series had full flow oil filtration with a spin on filter? Am I right on these assumptions? Regards Neil |
Posted By: Brian Jasper co. Ia
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2014 at 4:39pm
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My series 1 D17D does not have a bypass style oiling system. It does use a canister style oil filter where the later models have a spin on. I'm 98 44/100% sure the bypass oiling system on the diesels ended with WD45D production. My 17 is an early 58 model. Diesel combustion chamber in the head is known as a "Lanova" design or "Energy Cell". The 262 is the last engine to use the Lanova design. Starting with the 426 in the D21 and 301 in the One Ninety, direct injection was used. ------------- "Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2014 at 8:31pm
| Pretty sure all Buda designated engines were a bored block. All Allis engines had wet sleeves, hence the beginning of blowing head gaskets when sleeves sank below flush. |
Posted By: Ngrant
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2014 at 8:51pm
Yes that makes sense for the diesel. I think the gas G series has the combustion chamber in the piston top, but only be what I have read. Neil |
Posted By: Ngrant
Date Posted: 04 Dec 2014 at 8:52am
The B series were all wet sleeved except for the 273 six and the big 4 cylinder - 173 I think. The 230 in my 40 Cockshutt has wet sleeves. Neil |
Posted By: Ngrant
Date Posted: 30 Mar 2015 at 9:35am
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A little update on the progress. The 262 is in the tractor now with the clutch and bell housing all buttoned up. I need to start it before I go much further. When I had the oil pan off and the cam out, I checked a rod and main bearing and they looked very good. I also check the lifters for any broken ones and they seemed good also. The Cockshutt front and rear are in place as well as the new older style D19 water pump which puts the fan a bit lower. It seems the bypass tube is a different size on the new pump - like one size larger than the old one. So I am wondering what model of tractor or combine would be the same and if I got a used bypass and thermostat housing from that model for the bigger line would it all marry up and fit? Any ideas? Thanks Neil |
Posted By: Ngrant
Date Posted: 30 May 2015 at 6:14pm
After getting it running well a month ago, today I took the AC manifold off and put the AC Gleaner A manifold on that I bought from Don Bradley in Misssouri. It is the same as the Cockshutt one. I also put the thermostat housing on that I bought from Tom Lunn. Thanks Tom and Don There is a little AC orange and Gleaner grey on this red Cockshutt, which can't be a bad thing. I just need some fine thread 1/2" nuts as I need to use some of the Cockshutt studs as the bolts that came out of the old thermostat housing were too short. Good to get working at it again after a while away.
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Posted By: Don(MO)
Date Posted: 31 May 2015 at 11:34am
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Happy to help, let me know if you need more gas parts. I will ship the next one I'm hoping next week, I will PM you the day she go's out. Post some shots of both sides next time. ------------- 3 WD45's with power steering,G,D15 fork lift,D19, W-Speed Patrol, "A" Gleaner with a 330 corn head,"66" combine,roto-baler, and lots of Snap Coupler implements to make them work for their keep. |
Posted By: Ngrant
Date Posted: 31 May 2015 at 8:18pm
Hi Don. I posted a video on facebook of it idling in mid April. Running very well other than a leak at one of the exhaust ports on the D19 style manifold. I will post a link to it and hopefully it works. https://www.facebook.com/neil.grant.549/videos/vb.563709913/10153237115249914/?type=3&theater I took the D71 Series III diesel water pump to a machine shop and had the hub pressed of an reversed to the same offset as the Cockshutt pump. I then cut the hub and shaft off that was sticking out and would hit the radiator. The Gleaner pump is away bigger than the Cockshutt one. Should keep it cool with the 6 blade Cockshutt fan. http://https://www.facebook.com/neil.grant.549/videos/vb.563709913/10153237115249914/?type=3&theater" rel="nofollow - https://www.facebook.com/neil.grant.549/videos/vb.563709913/10153237115249914/?type=3&theater Thanks again Don and everyone have a good evening. Neil |
Posted By: Ngrant
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2015 at 6:51pm
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The 50 is all in one big assy now. I set the valves per a D19 gas at 17 and 22 cold and then put on the sheet metal. I changed the part under the gas tanks to the less rusted one I got from Molly Bradley and it now has the Allis B series manifold I got from Don Bradely and the thermostat housing and bypass I got from Tom Lunn - Don and Tom two good Allis people and Molly is a good Cockshutt person! Parts from Minneapolis, Missiourri and Southern Ont all working together with a Gleaner engine from Lonnie Wiggins from Quebec. Feels great to see it all come together. I should have it ready for paint very soon. It is running very well except for a little noise around the governor. Hopefully as the Cockshutt Buda governor gear wears in to the Gleaner Allis engine, it subsides. Power steering works well. It is the 4th Cockshutt to have power steering ever. Have a good one to you all. Neil    
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