Allis Chalmers and deutz
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=50275
Printed Date: 20 May 2025 at 8:43am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.10 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Allis Chalmers and deutz
Posted By: AC 426 power
Subject: Allis Chalmers and deutz
Date Posted: 08 May 2012 at 10:17pm
| Why did deutz basically destroy Allis Chalmers ? |
Replies:
Posted By: Orange Blood
Date Posted: 08 May 2012 at 10:20pm
|
MONEY! ------------- Still in use: HD7 WC C CA WD 2-WD45 WD45LP WD45D D14 3-D17 D17LP 2-D19D D19LP 190XTD 190XTLP 720 D21 220 7020 7030 7040 7045 3-7060 Projects: 3-U UC 2-G 2-B 2-C CA 7-WC RC WDLP WF D14 D21 210 7045 N7 |
Posted By: morton(pa)
Date Posted: 08 May 2012 at 10:22pm
| Theres a POLITICS section on this website for a REASON!!! |
Posted By: ALLISMAN32
Date Posted: 08 May 2012 at 10:25pm
| German bull headedness, and money! Guess when you're in charge you are entiteled to make the decisions wether they be right or wrong. |
Posted By: Dave in il
Date Posted: 08 May 2012 at 10:33pm
|
I suppose Rumley fans could have asked the same question about Allis Chalmers. Duetz only bought AC for the equipment lines, dealer network and distribution system they needed in North America. Their assumption was they were better at business, at management and design and not much at AC was worth saving. Of course from day one history shows they were lousey at all the above. ------------- AGCO My Allis Gleaner Company |
Posted By: 427435
Date Posted: 08 May 2012 at 10:43pm
Pretty much it. They thought American farmers would buy air-cooled tractors without power shift transmissions and good hydraulics. ------------- Mark B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel, GTH-L Simplicity Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not. |
Dave in il wrote:Posted By: ncrc5315
Date Posted: 08 May 2012 at 10:58pm
| Deutz owned 20% of Steiger, and had planned to have Steiger build a row crop tractor, using Deutz engines. Deutz really got blindsided when CaseIH acquired the outstanding shares of Steiger, and they had no plan B. At least this is the story I heard. The other thing they had going against them is, I don't think they understood the market they were buying into. Plus you have to think like a German, Allis failed, so therefore their products must be inferior, so why would Deutz want to sell them? |
Posted By: soybreedingboy77
Date Posted: 08 May 2012 at 11:15pm
| I have heard that Deutz did not know that the 8000 series tractor patents did not come with the at division. They had been sold to John Deere out from under the noses of the Deutz Brass. However, when they found out it was either to late or they did not care that much because they planned on using the German built Deutz but ran into price problems. |
Posted By: DougG
Date Posted: 09 May 2012 at 4:20am
| If they woulda put a Deutz engine in the AC tractors of the time it may have worked out . |
Posted By: Fred in Pa
Date Posted: 09 May 2012 at 5:51am
| Why did Allis Chalmers sell to them !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's like anything else,you buy it ,you can do what ever you want !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
Posted By: cornbinder
Date Posted: 09 May 2012 at 6:20am
|
terrible management. a-c was behind the 8-ball clear back to the 190, with it's weak rearend, terrible brakes etc.etc. research and development must have been on vacation to long, at a time where quality,durability was really needed at a time when john deere had the 4000 series tractors to compete against. i'm not sure what happened from there as the 7000,8000 series tractors where pretty stout, i don't clearly understand 100% either. quote me if i'm wrong, just my opinion though. pete ------------- D-19 gas w/f-sold 185-d yr round cab 95 mustang gt 5.0 86 mustang 5.0 coupe 3 99 f-250 7.3 4x4's 96 f-250 7.3 4x4 |
Posted By: Jordan(OH)
Date Posted: 09 May 2012 at 6:30am
| I've seen a pic of a 2wd Steiger. No idea what engine it had. |
Posted By: Jordan(OH)
Date Posted: 09 May 2012 at 6:53am
| http://www.toytractorshow.com/2wd_steiger.htm" rel="nofollow - http://www.toytractorshow.com/2wd_steiger.htm |
Posted By: Dave in il
Date Posted: 09 May 2012 at 9:18am
The 190 did not have rear end problems as far as I know, the problems were with the XTs. The rear end was designed for the 190 (basically still a D19 rear end) but the race for a 100 hp and more was hot and heavy and the sales people wanted a competetive tractor. The engineers said they could easily make the power but the 190 rear end wouldn't handle it, but the decision was made to get the XT out there. I've never heard of a gas XT having rear end problems either but you can't turn up the pump on a gas tractor and most diesel XT's were "hot" right off the dealers lot. It's too bad because that reputation dogged the entire series even though AC paid to fixed most of the early ones (at a pretty substantal cost to the company) and by the time the series II XT came out the rear ends were fine. 4020's are a pretty good tractor but I'd choose a Series III 190XT in a heartbeat instead. The other thing everyone over looks is the "New Generation" Deeres were the 3010 and 4010 that had their share of troubles. The 4020 is the "Next Generation" after the bugs were worked out. Top management at AC looked at the company as a whole and each division was just a cog in the machine, in the 70's when Ag was making them big returns some of those profits that should have been used for R&D or to modernise and upgrade facilities, instead it went to prop up other parts of the company. That's why AC was "behind the 8 ball" as you say. But Ag was a relatively small part of a massive company. When things went to heck in the 80's noboby could keep all the balls in the air that AC had going and they were selling the foundation and the walls to make the house payments.
------------- AGCO My Allis Gleaner Company |
Posted By: 427435
Date Posted: 09 May 2012 at 10:03am
That's not true. Deutz thought they could build a tractor in KC using drivetrains purchased from ZF and their air-cooled engines. Turned out they (the drivetrains) were too expensive. ------------- Mark B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel, GTH-L Simplicity Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not. |
Posted By: 427435
Date Posted: 09 May 2012 at 10:16am
Correct. Plus the management wanted to keep net income as high as possible during those years to keep their bonuses high. That meant reduced funding for R&D or tooling. ------------- Mark B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel, GTH-L Simplicity Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not. |
Posted By: 427435
Date Posted: 09 May 2012 at 10:17am
Hadn't heard that before. ------------- Mark B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel, GTH-L Simplicity Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not. |
Posted By: tbran
Date Posted: 09 May 2012 at 10:32am
|
There were a few steiger tractors made that used the AC front / rear bogie assys. Might be where that rumor came from ?
We needed a planetary part years ago that we got from IH at dirt cheap price - hope they have not scrapped their stock....
|
Posted By: Jordan(OH)
Date Posted: 09 May 2012 at 10:56am
| Steiger used the AC 2sp drop box on some models is what I've read on AgTalk. |
Posted By: Austin(WI)
Date Posted: 09 May 2012 at 11:01am
|
What I don't understand is that when Deutz bought the Ag line in Spring of 85, they headquartered the Deutz-Allis firm in West Allis, but they already knew they were going to quit production there. Why would they make their headquarters in West Allis when they were going to quit production? What was the stipulation that they had to keep producing the 8000 and 6000 series under the Deutz Allis name? Why not just shut it all down right away?
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=32UaAAAAIBAJ&sjid=_yoEAAAAIBAJ&pg=7081,4546754&dq=deutz+buys+allis-chalmers&hl=en" rel="nofollow - http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=32UaAAAAIBAJ&sjid=_yoEAAAAIBAJ&pg=7081,4546754&dq=deutz+buys+allis-chalmers&hl=en
------------- "Better By Design" |
Posted By: 427435
Date Posted: 09 May 2012 at 2:26pm
|
First, Steiger used some "package" final drives West Allis designed and built along with the drop boxes from the 4w-305. The engineering manager at Steiger and I were friends from our mutual days and employment at White. He also had grown up with Allis tractors. And there weren't a lot of other sources for HD final drives with adjustable wheel tread axles. Second, the initial headquarters at West Allis was just a matter of convenience. That's where all the accounting and sales management were, along with Roy Ulner who Deutz hired to be the "American" manager of Deutz-Allis. Third, Allis-Chalmers was basically being run by the banks that Allis owed money to. The CEO was just doing what they told him to do so he could keep his job and benefits a little longer. The money from Deutz for the ag operation just reduced the exposure the banks had. ------------- Mark B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel, GTH-L Simplicity Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not. |
Posted By: Austin(WI)
Date Posted: 09 May 2012 at 3:41pm
|
So even if management didn't want to sell the ag line, in case the tractor market made a comeback, they had no other choice. They were bank(s) owned and operated at that point, and the bank(s) was running the show? Interesting! I wonder if they would have been better off putting the tractor division in hibernation until things picked up again? ------------- "Better By Design" |
Posted By: Dale-OH
Date Posted: 09 May 2012 at 3:55pm
| Allis Chalmers Destroyed itself, it was a top notch product but could not make money. |
Posted By: 427435
Date Posted: 09 May 2012 at 4:17pm
|
I don't know about the LaPorte or Independence plants, but I had quotes from other engine suppliers that would have kept the Tractor Plant at break even at the low point in tractor sales in the early 80's. And good profits in a normal sales year. Instead, ATD was paying inflated prices to the Harvey Plant for their engines. However, buying engines from another source would have meant shutting down Harvey and taking a big write-down on assets. Instead, management elected to slowly bleed to death so they could keep their high pay and benefits as long as they possible. ------------- Mark B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel, GTH-L Simplicity Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not. |
Posted By: MI8050
Date Posted: 09 May 2012 at 5:22pm
| Was the Harvey plant really outdated? Deere and IH had good success with their in house engines, had they modernized earlier or something? |
Posted By: 427435
Date Posted: 09 May 2012 at 5:41pm
There hadn't been a lot of R&D or updating in Harvey. And too much of what there was had been directed to trying to get into the on-highway truck market instead of improving the ag engines. And there just wasn't the volume------------the number of tractors and combines being built by the industry was declining sharply. Case saw the handwriting on the wall and got in bed with Cummins. Allis should have done something similar in the 70's. ------------- Mark B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel, GTH-L Simplicity Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not. |
Posted By: tbran
Date Posted: 09 May 2012 at 5:49pm
|
Harvey Volume - or lack of it increased per unit cost. Deere had overseas engine plants to source from (france - germany) to hold down costs plus their ^ sales. .
Out dated ? The cam out of the first 426 nat asp 3400 was the same profile as the last 670HI in the 8070 . Same with the first 2800 vs the last L3 301 at 145 HP.
How many cams did GM make for the 350ci small block for different applications. ?
There just wasn't a whole lot of ideas going on there. Probably more work done on the
301 block from the 2800 to the mark II engine than anything - and we take those heads off when they crack and replace them with the 2800 180 heads when we can find injector tip nuts to fit.
Harvey was working on a cam driven injector for certain engines when the curtain closed - emissions were just coming down the pike.
|
Posted By: DougG
Date Posted: 09 May 2012 at 6:40pm
| What other companies were in talks with AC ?? |
Posted By: AC 426 power
Date Posted: 09 May 2012 at 6:45pm
| IH considered "merging" with AC in the early 1980s but the allis farm line was not the main interest it was AC industrial division |
Posted By: 427435
Date Posted: 09 May 2012 at 6:59pm
That's news to me. I was on the fringe of the talks with Deutz and dealt with Steiger, but I never heard of talks with any other tractor manufacturer. ------------- Mark B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel, GTH-L Simplicity Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not. |
Posted By: AC 426 power
Date Posted: 09 May 2012 at 7:04pm
| Yeah it was news to me too, i dont know if you are familiar with the magazine "Heritage Iron" but thats where i had read it |
Posted By: Austin(WI)
Date Posted: 09 May 2012 at 8:06pm
|
What about all this talk about John Deere sending letters out after AC kicked the bucket practically saying they were glad AC tractors were gone for good? Any truth to that?? I know someone had posted that on here before. ------------- "Better By Design" |
Posted By: Brian Ahart
Date Posted: 09 May 2012 at 8:06pm
A Milwaukee Journal article from 12/9/84 alludes to merger rumors between A-C and M-F ("A-C Rumors Persist"), but an inside source within the company had not heard about that particular combination (or at least would not go on record). ------------- A-C Weight ID reference and other goodies at http://www.brianahart.net" rel="nofollow - brianahart.net |