pertronix ignition
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Forum Name: Farm Equipment
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URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=43627
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Topic: pertronix ignition
Posted By: vyvyjim
Subject: pertronix ignition
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2012 at 11:22am
| Will pertronix ignition add any horsepower to my series IV D17? |
Replies:
Posted By: Gary in da UP
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2012 at 11:25am
| Probably not, but it will start easier , run smoother, and spark plugs will stay cleaner & last longer. I thought I'd edit my reply, because I simply responded to question, but I'd like to add that once you install a pertronix and an appropriate coil, there are two things I do that I think add a little more power. The first is to trim the outer electrode back to where it ends directly above the side of the center electrode, I do this with a 3" disc cutter, and finish it with a small file, make the trimmed electrode square and sharp. Electricity will jump from one square sharp edge to another much more easily than from one rounded [worn] electrode to another... much less resistance ! Work carefully , try not to nick that center electrode. Next , reset the plug gap to 40- 45 thou. Need a wire gauge to do this properly, feeler gauge is hard to use. Then, to back up a little, when you buy plugs , buy twice as many as you need, mark on each one on the porecelin where the open area of the eletrode is and try each one in a cylinder , the object is to index your plugs for each cylinder so that the outer electrode is up, the flame or spark faces the piston. This will increase the power, of course you can index plugs with points and see some gain , you can't open the gap and make a big fat spark as I have described here. A mag in tip top shape might work just as well.. I know that I have a lot of respect for a magnetos spark ! |
Posted By: Steve in NJ
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2012 at 3:54pm
|
The Pertronix Ignition won't add any HP, but it does add reliability. Eliminating the points and condenser is big in the plus department! Faster starts as Gary mentioned, also an even amount of current to each spark plug. A hotter coil can be added also if so desired for a little more fire in the hole making for a little better combustion. Cool part is it fits right inside the stock Distributor with no mod's, so looks stock as can be. We sell quite a few E.I. kits. Usually when one is purchased and installed in one Tractor to try it out, the rest of the Tractors wind up with em' to! LOL! Steve@B&B |
Posted By: 79fordblake
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2012 at 4:06pm
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All my tractors start before you have time to let off the starter...don't see how the pertronix can make it start any better. My WD45 had the same plugs and points in it for 20 years and Grandpa used it alot. Just this year I gave it a full tune up. Pertronix will make a tractor start faster if it is out of tune...and it makes them run better in pulling applications. Seems like wasted money for a field tractor but alot of people love them. |
Posted By: DSeries4
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2012 at 5:33pm
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I put one on my series IV when I restored it 5 years ago. It dyno'd at 58 hp. The guy operating the dyno told me I could have hit 60. Never tested it before the Pertronix. I will say that it is a very nice piece and worth the money. ------------- '49 G, '54 WD45, '55 CA, '56 WD45D, '57 WD45, '58 D14, '59 D14, '60 D14, '61 D15D, '66 D15II, '66 D21II, '67 D17IV, '67 D17IVD, '67 190XTD, '73 620, '76 185, '77 175, '84 8030, '85 6080 |
Posted By: JimD
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2012 at 5:42pm
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We sell quite a few of them, but I try to keep people realistic. If your points and capacitor is good, you will not see a bit of difference. But if things are weak, you will notice. I only recommend them on 12V systems, and even then I try to give realistic expectations. I'm actually the opposite of 79, if I had to rely on mine for field work, I would be more apt to put one in more of my tractors. For occasional use I can file points if she doesn't start up. JimD ------------- Owner of http://www.OKtractor.com" rel="nofollow - OKtractor.com PM for an instant response on parts. Open M-F 9-6 Central. We have new and used parts. 877-378-6543 |
Posted By: NickT(Ky)
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2012 at 5:44pm
| Ive got them on Allis' and farmalls. Love'em. |
Posted By: 79fordblake
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2012 at 7:56pm
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I have heard of many people having trouble with pertronix on other sites. Together me and my dad have 7 tractors with points still and I have one truck that still runs on points....never been a time they wouldn't start. I'm keeping my money in my pocket for other things. Most of my buddies have pertronix but they have built up engines. There stock tractors still have points. I have seen side by side comparasions on same brands and models of tractors...the pertronix doesn't make the tractor run any better than a tractor with a good set of points that are adjusted correctly. Not trying to argue with anybody just saying what I think about it. To all the pertronix people....id keep extra set of points and condensor in the tool box...b/c you never know when that little module will leave you stranded in the middle of a tractor ride or the field. The local farm store will more than likely have a set of points you can use...but they won't have a pertronix module. |
Posted By: TREVMAN
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2012 at 9:31pm
| Ive converted 9 engines with Pertronix, never had one fail, there is no comparision to points. If it starts better and runs better, it will have more power. Converted 2 Ford 361s, absolute dogs before, much more power now, no choke to start, and use less fuel. Of course points work, theyve worked since the begining of mass produced internal combustion engines, but there has been better technology available for 40 years, my 2 cents, Trev. |
Posted By: Josh(NE)
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2012 at 11:30pm
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Will electronic ignition help with tractors that don't won't to shut off (dieseling)? ------------- Allis Express '65 190XT, 37 B, '72 170, '83 8030, and the IH 560 was a mistake |
Posted By: David Maddux
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2012 at 5:15am
| Let me know if my info is wrong. With points on a user tractor, you will have to change points once a year. With the new electronic ignition, no maintenance other than change spark plugs periodically? Dave. |
Posted By: Steve in NJ
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2012 at 6:22am
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I've sold quite a few Pertronix E.I.'s, and can count on one hand how many times one of our customer's has had a problem. If the problem is the unit, Pertronix always comes through with a new replacement, or repairing the same unit. A couple things you have to be careful with and know about when equipping your Tractor with an E.I. module. First, watch when you charge your Battery with a Battery charger/booster. If you forget and leave the key on after finding a low Battery won't crank the engine over, you can blow the E.I. module out with the Battery charger. Always disconnect one cable off the Battery before putting the charger/booster on, and make sure the key is in the OFF position. This apply's to both 6 & 12V units. Also, on 6V units, when cranking the engine over, after releasing the starter rod the engine fires up, that is a normal condition. Reason why is the E.I. Module needs 4V min. to fire off. With most of the power going to the starter while its engaged, the E.I. in most cases will not fire until you let go of the starter rod. That split second gives the E.I. 4 or more volts to light off the engine. My B model does that everytime, but ole' Alice fires off everytime, even in the cold, cold weather. My IB is 12V, and as soon as I hit the starter rod, the engine fires right off, so this condition does not exist. Its only with the 6V version. The E.I. has been in ole Alice's Distributor for 11 years now and never had a failure. Lil' Al my IB is going on three years now with his E.I. I just feel that if the upgrades like this are available, and it helps the engine as well as cutting the maintenance down for me, well what the heck, its a no brainer.... Just my 2 cents...
mailto:Steve@B&B" rel="nofollow - Steve@B&B
|
Posted By: KGood
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2012 at 8:30am
| We have installed quite a few. When I did my uncles stock D17 I noticed the timing was the same before and after. I have had some trouble with brand new chineese rural king points in the past. Never had issue with pertronix yet. Like others said once you put one in you will want all to have them. |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2012 at 8:42am
------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Josh(NE) wrote:Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2012 at 8:44am
|
If one wants a good electronic ignition if not the best ignition a chevette hei from autozone $150 and you have one of the best. even petronixs best module is a four pin hei style module. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: 79fordblake
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2012 at 11:04am
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Once a year? I would think closer to 5 years on a moderately used tractor. I haven't changed points on any of my tractors or dads in 5 years except my WD45 just a few months ago for the first time in 22 years. My 73 Ford F100 has 5,000 miles on a set of points and they still look great. I'm curious to see how long they last...no pitting or anything yet. They don't wear out as fast as some people think. I've seen a points tractor beside a pertronix tractor. I just don't see all these great things everybody is talking about. I guess I'm just beating a dead horse now...I'd rather spend my money on other things...the pertronix hasn't convinced me to buy. |
Posted By: Steve in NJ
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2012 at 11:43am
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If you got 22 years out of a set of points on your WD45 using it everyday without lifitng the cap, I wouldn't buy a Pertronix either. I'd have to find out who the mfr of those were, cause' they gotta' be outta business. The only set of points I had that went for 22 years is the set that's still in the box on my shelf for a Rolls-Canardly. (Not a popular set of points ya know.) Unless the Tractor sat for 21 years, I find that one hard to believe. But, stranger things happen I guess....
mailto:Steve@B&B" rel="nofollow - Steve@B&B
|
Posted By: JRaymer
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2012 at 11:44am
| What is the cost of installing it for each tractor or does it cost different for each model . |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2012 at 12:39pm
|
petronix coil and hall effect switch usually 120 chevette utozone remain hei 150. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: 79fordblake
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2012 at 12:41pm
|
Well this was my Grandpa's tractor.. I don't know what brand the points were...but I do know they were in there for 22 years. The tractor plowed....disked...dug ponds with a pond scoop..pulled a combine and pulled thousands of tobacco wagons... it took many wagons full of grain to town also 14 miles away. Grandpa did everything with it. Maybe it was just luck? I have no idea...I just know I'm not buying pertronix.....lol :) |
Posted By: Gary in da UP
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2012 at 4:06pm
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[QUOTE=79fordblake]Well this was my Grandpa's tractor.. I don't know what brand the points were...but I do know they were in there for 22 years. The tractor plowed....disked...dug ponds with a pond scoop..pulled a combine and pulled thousands of tobacco wagons... it took many wagons full of grain to town also 14 miles away. Grandpa did everything with it. Maybe it was just luck? I have no idea...I just know I'm not buying pertronix.....lol :) [ /QUOTE]
O.K. save your money, but don't knock em' til you've tried one. I have edited my post above, probably nothing in it to change your mind, but thats ok.
|
Posted By: NickT(Ky)
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2012 at 5:38pm
| I,m not sure if mine are petronix. Are they the only manufacturer? I got mine from Brillman Co. in West Va. They beat everybodys price and great service. That was before I knew about you Steve! I gave around $70each for all my sets. I have not replaced a single spark plug in 10 yrs., even on an M that smokes a little. P.S. I hate pts. and condensors |
Posted By: Josh(NE)
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2012 at 6:47pm
|
Electronic Ignition won't work after a EMP is set off and points will. Right? Mabe not.
------------- Allis Express '65 190XT, 37 B, '72 170, '83 8030, and the IH 560 was a mistake |
Posted By: 79fordblake
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2012 at 12:05am
I said more than once I have had tractors side by side one with points and other with pertronix and the pertronix showed no improvements over good points. I wasn't really trying to knock them...I just think they are more hype than fact. I can't argue if they are bad or not but my experiences lead me to believe they don't help at all. I guess other people have seen big improvements. This is just a guess but.......the people that are seeing big improvements means they had weak ignition systems and the extra spark is covering up worn wires cap..rotor...plugs...or maybe a poorley tuned carb. |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2012 at 10:24am
|
So back to the beginning: Jim's question was 'will it add horsepower'. If you have a properly setup point/condenser system, tight distributor shaft, properly set timing and dwell, no wear on the contact points, no wear on the point cam, a good condenser, cap, and rotor, it will fire on time, every time, like it was originally designed... and regardless of what type of ignition system you compare, the power results will be the same- every cylinder, fires every time, on time. So the answer is NO. Now, if you have a distributor that is 50 years old, perhaps rebuilt 20 years ago, a little play in the shaft, contact points that sit for a while between runnings, a little wear on the point cam, and a condenser that's been on the engine for 12 years, some piston/liner wear, a little slop in the valve adjustments, a carbeurator that's got some play in the throttle shaft, then the answer is YES... but nothing more than what SHOULD have been there with the stock setup, in a brand-new condition. So in that respect, everyone here is correct. The answer is yes and no. So what's the real answer here? Electronic ignition of ANY type will naturally be superior, because it is devoid of the wear of the mechanical components, in critical locations, is integral to point-condenser design. The long-term stability and reliability of an electronic trigger method IS superior, simply because it lacks moving parts, and is not subject to timing variations due to mechanical action and wear. This is why you won't even find lawnmowers with contact points- they're all electronic trigger systems. Wether or not it will survive an EMP isn't greatly relevant to horsepower development in the field, and wether or not you can stand alongside both while running and tell the difference isn't very relevant, but if you put BOTH under a series of tests, you'll find that, in all instances EXCEPT an EMP, that an engine equipped with point-condenser, when parked in a barn and ignored for five years, alongside an identical equipped with ANY brand of electronic trigger system, that the electronic will start sooner, and be more accurate, than the mechanical system, with NO maintenance to the trigger mechanism whatsoever... and without contact on the breaker cam, the distributor bushing doesn't wear out. And from the final respect, the Pertronix kit has a distinct advantage over Pankey's HEI suggestion- you can slap it in a stock distributor, and keep the point-condenser kit handy for the day you need to put it back in to get you home. I'll advise, however, that if you choose to keep the point-condenser option, don't expect the contact points you buy today to be anywhere near as good as the ones that came stock, so buy about five kits. The springs are made of lousy metal, the contact point material and plating suck, and the condensers are marginal in holding tolerance. Good points and condensers are all but gone from the market now... the last half-dozen kits I've gotten were lucky to hold steady timing for more than a few weeks without having to take the cap off and clean the contacts, and it's a must after every long-term storage. They just don't make 'em like they USED to. And don't think I'm partial to old technology- I love brutal simplicity... I love the magneto in my '39 B, and I love the magnetos on my '42 Kohler, '43 Hobart, and '59 Consolodated generator sets... I wouldn't trade them, or the hand-start ability, for anything in the world.... and I truely fear the day that contact points become NLA for these mags. The world's change to SMD electronics has made the availability of 'conventional' electronic components go way down compared to what once was... ignition condensers will soon join their ranks. I love the Pertronix kit in my D17... and in my dad's '54 Century Resorter... and everything else I've put 'em in. They work as advertised, and when applied to ANY distributor, will outperform contact points in all categories of performance with exception of surviving EMPs and accidentally reversing the battery cables. |
Posted By: AllisFreak MN
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2012 at 11:08am
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Are they hard to install? Maybe I should switch my D17 over. How much are they? Do they work in 6 volt magneto systems for my WD? ------------- '49 A-C WD, '51 A-C WD, '63 A-C D17 Series III, 1968 A-C One-Seventy, '82 A-C 6060, '75 A-C 7040, A-C #3 sickle mower, 2 A-C 701 wagons, '78 Gleaner M2 |
Posted By: 79fordblake
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2012 at 11:31am
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I agree with most of what you said. I guess if there comes a time when I'll switch to the electronic but I still have good luck with points so I'm not going that route yet. The fairly simple DuraSpark electronic ignition on my 79 F150 and Bronco is the most complicated system I have on anything. This is the whole reason I like things that are old. I see brand new vehicles littered all over the road... I've been sorta off topic this whole time but I guess it worked out alright. I guess nobody is offended? If so I'm sorry....never meant to nor did I want to. I may be young but I was brought up in old ways and I am kind of set in them. I see all this old equipment/vehicles running around with minimal problems and then see all this new equipment/vehicles always broke down...doesn't give me much confidence in the stuff. I like computers and all that but I don't think the world should be consumed by them like they are now. Makes me think of this saying "America.....we use to make stuff here". I have nothing more to add to points vs. electronic....lol...wow aren't you guys gonna be happy? :) Sorry for dragging on everything guys. When I stand behind something I won't change my mind for nothing lol. |
Posted By: LouSWPA
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2012 at 11:36am
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Rolls Canardly Steve? I haven't heard that one in a long time! I had one once with the rare 4-50 air conditioner option. ------------- I am still confident of this; I will see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord; be strong and take heart and wait for the Lord. Ps 27 |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2012 at 8:32pm
------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Steve in NJ
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2012 at 10:14pm
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Hey Luigi! You caught that one uh? I thought that one went over everybodys head.. LOL! Steve@B&B |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2012 at 7:58am
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the hei $24 module with some electrical wiring wizzardry can be made to trigger from points for the small cap fans . basically the 4 pin hei is the same as the ignitor 3 that petronix advertises being a v8 only option .The reason for the v8 only advertizing according to petronix is the rev limiter, ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 9:52am
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sold my hei last night . Thanks guys . Will be making more if interested ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Rogers
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 7:11pm
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I like the petronix ignitor. I put on an a (hold your ears) 8N Ford. It was hard to start before, but now it starts like a champ. I remember my dad fusing about the electronic ignition telling me to go get some points when I had some trouble. Installer error repaired and started smooth as silk. I asked him if he still wanted to change back to points. "No I guess not." I've been thinking about some on the other tractors. I'll probably start with the D15. ------------- Think for yourself and be your own expert. Be willing to change your mind; however, willingness to change your mind doesn’t mean that you will. Blindly following any path is the pinnacle of insanity. |
Posted By: captaindana
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 8:16pm
| Hi guys I flew the jet all day and cant think much right now, but this is a great discussion! Thanks! But.....what is EMP? |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 8:49pm
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electromagnetic pulse ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Rogers
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 10:48pm
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If an EMP happens we probably wouldn't be worried about starting a tractor. Even if you had points you would need gas. If you had gas you would eventually need parts. We would probably be looking at farming with mules. The lack of mechanical parts and easy starting is what sold me. I have had several sets of points fail almost immediately. There is nothing more aggravating than running the mower or harrowing etc. and having the tractor shutdown because of points and condenser. Usually after the parts house closes to boot. I don't think you have to worry about flooding as bad. I suppose it is the hotter spark. Maybe it is the effect of a rebuilt carb in my case not the petronix that made the flooding problem go away. I am not sure on that one. ------------- Think for yourself and be your own expert. Be willing to change your mind; however, willingness to change your mind doesn’t mean that you will. Blindly following any path is the pinnacle of insanity. |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 11:56pm
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It would be more accurate to say 'fuel waste' being less with electronic, than with mechanical... and as I noted before, if everything's in tip-top shape, there'll be no noticeable difference... but being mechanical, and subject to wear and environmental degradation to which the electronic trigger and amplification system are not, the electronic will waste less wholly based on the mechanical's state-of-health. Much of the fuel waste occurs during the 'wet' portion of startup... when liquid droplets get drawn in through a cold manifold. A wet plug doesn't develop an arc- the liquid fuel, and moisture, and oil short it out. When this happens, It takes a few cycles to 'blow' it clear, and if the choke is still pulled (to make other cylinders fire), then it'll keep flooding until the engine's spinning fast enough to blow it clear. Electronic ignition floods just like mechanical, however, it's not apt to START missing on a result of improper firing. There's no contact points to become fouled with frost or corrosion, nor does it require a condenser, so it's less likely to foul, and much quicker to fire THROUGH a foul, hence, the engine starts 'wet', and gets off the choke sooner. Realize, that the intake path of a carbeurated engine is 'wet'... manifold vacuum is generated by airflow through the carbeurator venturi, and it's drawing fuel up through the manifold, which because of ambient conditions AND combined gas law, will remain cold until such time that some external heat source warms it. The heat source, is the exhaust manifold junction point. This junction conducts enough heat from the exhaust side to the intake side, to minimize intake and carb frost, as well as helps vaporize the fuel droplets so they'll burn. So the parry, is that a misfiring engine will not generate exhaust heat, and without exhaust heat, the misfiring engine will not clear and fire. By establishing a good fire from the outset (getting it touched off, and then off the choke), you'll get good atomization, much quicker warmup (out of the 'wet' stage), and much less fuel used. When running HOT, you have the opposite condition- very well atomized fuel, and when the carbeurator is in an 'economizing' state, the mixture will be pretty lean... it takes a hot spark to touch off a lean mixture... especially in a slow-turning low- to moderate compression engine. The electronic trigger system does that... because it doesn't need 'point dwell' in order to fully saturate the ignition coil at every event. Electronic trigger systems don't suffer 'bounce', or contact contamination. So the fuel economy benefit is that when you put a set in an older machine that HAS seen it's fair share of fencerows, it gets back what it USED to have, but without having to babysit the gap and dwell, no need to keep the contacts clean. If your mechanical system was spot-on-perfect, it wouldn't matter, but the maintenance to keep mechanicals that way, is substantially greater. Nice thing about the Pertronix kit, is that it takes 5 minutes to slap it in and wire it up, and no messing around to get it working. |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2012 at 8:05am
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still a 24 dollar hei module another 10 dollars at radio shack and you have the factory delco point distributor electronic with the ability to run a .5 ohm coil petronix dont do that . ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |