Tractor Pulling Madness
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Category: Allis Chalmers
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URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=39699
Printed Date: 30 Apr 2025 at 10:18pm
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Topic: Tractor Pulling Madness
Posted By: Ken in Texas
Subject: Tractor Pulling Madness
Date Posted: 28 Oct 2011 at 9:17pm
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This afternoon at the LA State Fair pull I had myself all set to pull off a couple more wins in 3000 and 3500 like I did a couple weeks ago against some of the same folks.
A new puller on a SFW CA just like mine with what looked like the original dry rotted and cracked 11-2 24s weighed in at the exact same weight as I in both the 3000 and the 3500 classes. I'm running 13-6 24s. He outpulled me by more than just a little bit in both classes and we both got stomped by a M Deere in 3500.
The outcome made no sense at all to either one of us CA pullers. He couldn't believe he outpulled me on junk tires and neither one of us could believe the M showed us both a thing or two about winning.
Is it time to rethink running 13-6s and go back to something skinny to be competive?
I'm beginning to think with the light weights the bigger tire the easyer they spinout. You are spreading the weight around in a larger area. If that same weight was concentrated in a smaller spot what would happen. Who Knows?? The track was black gumbo clay and a little dampish and soft from a recent rain.
Where the bigger tires did real well for me was on a hard dry clay track.
The same little M under those dry conditions didn't even get anywheres close to me.
Maybe the track will change overnight and things may be different tommorow after the big boys have their turn to dig it up.
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Replies:
Posted By: j.w.freck
Date Posted: 28 Oct 2011 at 10:00pm
| to top it all off ken.it was a woman driver.and i do believe she had a slight weight advantage over you...hang in there |
Posted By: Ken in Texas
Date Posted: 29 Oct 2011 at 6:41am
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Shame on you JW for mentioning that overlooked fact that I purposly and gentlemenly avoided.
How did the 45D do comming in bottom of the weight scale? I had to leave early because I wasn't dressed warm enough. It felt like there was nothing between the North Pole and Shreveport but a barbed wire fence. Officially 36 now and it's another hour to daylite. BURRR its cold. See you soon.
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Posted By: Larry(OH)
Date Posted: 29 Oct 2011 at 7:03am
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I'd go with taller, narrow tires. More tread on the ground ------------- '40 WC puller,'50 WD puller,'50 M puller '65 770 Ollie *ALLIS EXPRESS contact* I can explain it to you, BUT I cannot understand it for you!! |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 29 Oct 2011 at 7:22am
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Track, Track and Track. Track conditions can throw all theories out the window. Also air pressure can make a big difference. Different track conditions will require different tire pressures. Drawbar hight is also something you set by reading the track. I won more trophys with a 13 inch drawbar hight than higher settings on my C. Reading the sled is also a factor for drawbar seettings. Some use a short chain and some use a longer chain. A short chain will lift the front more than a long chain. With the short chain you would need to move weight forward or lower the drawbar. Old hard tires will out pull newer tires on (most tracks) They work more like steel cleats and the cleats don't tip back under a hard pull. Tires from a dairy get the hardest the quickest. I have no thought on the JD M. When I was pulling I pulled against two JD M's about every pull and they really never got into the top three if they had five tractors pulling.
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Posted By: Kcgrain
Date Posted: 29 Oct 2011 at 10:01am
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My dad has an M john Deere, why I have no idea it is the most useless thing I have ever seen in my life.
I would hang my head in shame and give myself 20 lashes with a wet noodle for getting beat my an M. LOL, shame shame
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Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 29 Oct 2011 at 10:15am
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I can think of more uses for a johndeere M than i can for a farmall cub. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Kcgrain
Date Posted: 29 Oct 2011 at 10:19am
| true, cant argue that |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 29 Oct 2011 at 10:25am
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I could be a little partial though i own a jd A and a jd h . Also have a farmall md its useless in my opinion but sounds good when you crank them on gas. Allis CA D14 Wd all three pull jd A pulls heavy ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 29 Oct 2011 at 10:26am
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A larger diameter tire will always yield higher tractive effort than smaller diameter. Dick's note about old hard tires not falling over is also true. A tire with greater ply count will be less likely to deform under stress, but hardness and ply count can work against you when trying to 'air down' for more surface. Likewise, airing down too far will increase rolling resistance, and require more horsepower to make the pull as weight transfers to the hitch. Having a 'stable' pulling platform is really the key to being successful in pulling- if the tractor is jumping around, the amount of horsepower, weight, tire type/size changes will have very little impact on the ability to make consistent pulls. That in consideration, I'll second Dick's note about hitch height, and include that when you weight the tractor, start by making it meet your organization's 'rules', and then set up your weights so that you can comfortably pull a test-load around with the front wheels off the ground... and not bang the front wheels uncontrollably. Once you can control it with a serious test-load dragging behind, make your other adjustments little-by-little and take good notes. Then, when you get to the track, look closely at the track, see what other guys are doing, and compare their performance. THEN... watch what the TRACK is doing. The track will change substantially from first pull to last, and the guys that win, will be able to make a consistently good pull through those changes. This also means they can PICK and hold to their line (stable platform, and being able to steer with wheels up!). Tractor pulling is like a triathalon... you have to get the basics down, and nothing you do will actually 'win', but making the right 'mistakes' will cause you to lose. Fortunately, in tractor pulling, if everyone gets to go home without injuries, and got to make at least one pull, then you're a winner regardless. A bad day of [insert your favorite pastime here] with good friends and family is always better than the best day at work! |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 29 Oct 2011 at 10:38am
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Dave with all do respect I tend to have some difference of opinion . If the tire is laying over the tread is to tall or deep . The lighter the tire and wheel the better in my opinion and more plys get heavy. Air pressure and knowing how to read the holes when you spin down in the weight class will overcome any tire ply issue. Front tires up means the tractor is slowing down and loosing power, rpm and hitch height. tallest tire the rules allow with the highest hitch point the rules allow is always where to be jmho. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Kcgrain
Date Posted: 29 Oct 2011 at 11:09am
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I have never pulled small light tractors, but I did build a big Diesel for a guy that pulled smaller antique gasser. We had one hell of a time with him because what works on big diesels, does not work on lighter tractors, and we couldnt get him to change his pulling approach with high HP heavy diesel.
What your saying about wheel up down etc, does not work in smaller tractors, what we have observed is the smaller tractors needed a longer drawbar for leverage, and a stack of weights on the front to keep the wheels down or just barely dancing, and the smaller tractors did well, on the big diesels its the opposite, short as you can be and wheels up. We could not break this guys thinking, so he was really competitive with his small tractors and a disaster on the big one. Although one would think the principle would be the same in real life it didnt seem to apply. Again this is what we observed.
Not to be inpolite about the size of the women driving, but I can tell you a big moveable weight has a huge effect, a guy that works here in the winter pulls an A JD he is big enough guy and has the tractor balanced so well that on a hard pull him leaning back will bring it up, and if its going up him moving forward or leaning forward will bring it back down, its quite an advantage most dont have.
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Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 29 Oct 2011 at 11:17am
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I have to differ on the highest drawbar setting possible. If you can put weight forward enough you can use higher drawbar settings. I division one where you can not use weights other than factory weights at the time of manufacture you end up climbing the gears and spinning out or getting DQ'd. Here is a 13 inch high drawbar setting pull. To find my best setting I bought as many hooks at each pull that they would allow and made changes for each hook. I also built my own track and tested at home as well. Very seldom did I get checked where I was not told I needed to raise my drawbar. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hM4YbM8keMM - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hM4YbM8keMM Drawbar on My Smaller C Allis Tractor set at 18 inches back fron the axle center. A very rare pull that I didn't get one of the three trophys in the eight years after I made the drawbar.  |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 29 Oct 2011 at 1:50pm
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Allis engineers pretty well covered what hitch height does for you in most operator manuals. The heavier the load the less the engineers recommend you to run for hitch height for operators safety. So do I hang enough weight out front to utilize the maximum hitch heights down force for traction or do I lower the hitch and loose down force to keep from hanging weight out front . I guess its a question one faces when faced with various rules. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 29 Oct 2011 at 2:00pm
| Correct. |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 30 Oct 2011 at 2:37pm
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Regardless of what type of competition it may be, EVERYTHING ALWAYS comes back to the rules. You weren't disagreeing with me, ML- I wasn't referring to tread height, and you're right, too tall a tread WILL fold over. My reference was to overall tire diameter... and the empirical data found in the Wismer-Luth study illustrates that agricultural tractive effort is not only pretty simple to predict, but also based on a relationship of very simple factors- tire height, ratio of weight upon driven wheels vs. weight upon undriven wheels, and rolling resistance. The result of performing a calculation will give a pretty accurate relative figure not only of tractive capacity, it will also illustrate the amount of additional horsepower required to compensate for slip, and furthermore, the amount of TE rise which occurs as slip occurs. Harold (Luth) put it best, saying something to the effect of: "Once you hit the calculated TE limitations, everything beyond is a state of slip, and from that point on, you can GET more TE, but it means applying incredible amounts of horsepower, and generating more slip". {This was said while we sat in beach chairs, around a campfire on an island in the middle of the Mississippi River, looking at Cordova, Illinois.} The point is pretty simple- if you run a 40" tall drive tire, and replace it with a 60" diameter tire, correct the drawbar height and gear ratios accordingly, you'll get more drawbar pull from the taller drive wheel. Reason: More contact surface (think geometry of Chord... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chord_%28geometry%29), lower rolling resistance, and greater drag required in order to break cohesive soil. And the deeper explanation of track conditions- If you do a soil sample study, you'll find that there's two ends of the soil spectrum that yield very poor TE capacity. First is very sandy or loose soils, the other end, is very very hard soils. Just walking on them is an excellent illustration of why the 'middle ground' yields best performance, and again, this was a lesson illustrated on a river-island sandy beach. Walk through the really loose sand for a quarter mile, and you'll be an incredibly tired dude. The softness requires more energy, because it isn't solid footing... you're fighting the condition of sinking-in. From the other perspective, if you walk on smooth concrete, you'll slip because you'll have nothing to push against when the slip-point occurs. The middle-ground, is having a type of soil that sticks to itself (cohesion), and can compact just-enough so that the agricultural tire impresses a 'pattern' to match the tire... at which point, the tire has something to apply force directly against. When you reach the point where slip STARTS to occur, what's happening (assuming the tread 'fall over' condition that ML noted isn't occuring), is that the soil has reached the limit where it can no longer stay stuck together under the SHEAR strain that the tire's lugs are applying. One thing to keep in mind here, is that the tire's lug design COMPACTS directly below the lug, and in doing so, actually INCREASES the ground's ability to resist compression under shear. This doesn't mean that the tire loses it's capacity to do work, but the applied horsepower -to- drawbar force relationship changes dramatically. This happens because the tire is SINKING, and a substantial amount of horsepower is required in order for the tire to 'climb' back to the surface. Realize here, that a larger-diameter tire suffers 'climb loss' horsepower much less than a small-diameter tire, just like it's easier to roll over a tree limb with a monster truck, than with a skateboard wheel. From a TE calculation standpoint, it's the larger wheel diameter's advantage that horsepower-to-slip relationship is much less of a punishment, than a smaller diameter tire. Eventually, when slip occurs, the tire will be 'tearing' soil from it's position. Let's say the wheel turns 110 feet, but the tractor only goes 100'... that's a 10% SLIP condition. Going to a 20% slip condition may bring up drawbar horsepower by say... 4%, but it may require input horsepower to DOUBLE. Pretty cool math, really, and note that when Harold was doing this study, they didn't START with math... they started with empirical evidence- they set up tractors, and applied the conditons noted... seemingy opposite of how grad students do it today, but I guess that's why they call it 'old school' (and probably why it all works well). Live weight: My experience with pulling... <and note that I have only two types of pulling experience- 1) Casual sled-pulling (primarily garden tractor, but occasional full-size pulling) and 2) Practical pulling... moving large objects with tractors on-the-farm> is that regardless of how the 'hard' weighting is done, that the 'live weight' factor is incredibly important in a successful pull. A big heavy guy on a properly set up puller can start his pull, and once the wheels are up, steer it down the track just by sitting still, and extending one hand to one side, or making a slight lean. My most memorable, was making a full pull with a Cub Cadet compact 4x4, front wheels up, with turf tires on a well-torn-up track. To steer left, lean a smidgen to the right. This causes the left wheel to lose traction, and the right grips a little better to pull the front end over to the left. This ain't a new technique, but for guys who DON'T use their tractors for agricultural situations, they don't get the chance to exercise it often. I had a 7500lb slug in my barnyard that I moved around, and every time, I had to steer it with wheels up, and never touched a brake. Being able to master this, meant being able to pick the best line down a torn-up track. It's not an easy task to learn, though, if the balance, drawbar orientation, etc., aren't set up to make for a stable pulling platform. Once a driver loses control of his machine's stability, the pull is over. |
Posted By: Ken in Texas
Date Posted: 30 Oct 2011 at 6:55pm
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Wow. To much to absorb in just one reading.
Here is a easy one. If you had a choice of two sets of 13-6 24s to go pulling a CA with, Which one would you choose? A Firestone Field and Road 4 ply. or A Goodyear Dyna Torque II 8 ply. Both are on 11x24 rims. Both sets are used but have almost the same ware. I will measure the circumfrence if you think it matters. I don't guess I ever saw anybody pulling on Goodyears.
What about just sticking with a pair of anybodys brand 4ply rated half worn out 11-2s on the stock power shift rims..
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Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 30 Oct 2011 at 8:10pm
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field and road especially if they are road worn and have about 3/4 a inch tread. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: j.w.freck
Date Posted: 30 Oct 2011 at 8:19pm
| hey ken...dave camp is a very sharp man.seems to know what he is doing.i have witnessed a couple of his tactics mentioned here,seems to work.track survailance can tell you a lot also.very good info...thx dave |
Posted By: Ken in Texas
Date Posted: 30 Oct 2011 at 9:15pm
| JW Camp was talking about garden tractor pulling most of the time. I think steering with front wheels off the ground can work by shifting your body weight only on a garden tractor that weighs 500 pounds or less. |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 30 Oct 2011 at 9:29pm
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It's Kamp... and no, that compact was well over 3x that figure... about 1900 IIRC. My IHCC129 has 500lbs of BALLAST... I weight-shift steer the D17 Series 1 all the time. The only thing that really matters, is that you've got it loaded up to the point where you're close enough to the limits of slip that leaning to one side will cause more slip to occur on the lighter wheel. Back when I was very young, I'd go to the local farmer tractor-pulls at Koszta, Iowa, there was a guy that had an Oliver fitted up with a well-blown DD, and he ran with tall tires set really narrow. He started the pull light, advanced throttle to an awesome roar, black smoke then flame out the stack, wheels went up about 6", and stayed there the whole run. Steered it just by leaning from one fender to the other. I've never forgotten the sound and fury... right up there with getting flown-over by a P51D going vertical-vector... better'n any sound system on earth. |
Posted By: Ken in Texas
Date Posted: 30 Oct 2011 at 9:44pm
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2 mysterys remain. JW is my witness. I got beat good in 3000 and 3500 by another CA on little old junk 10 24s. I'm pulling 13-6 24 Firestones at 4 psi. Then we both get beat by a M Deere in both classes. I'm still scratching my head, It's like having a bass boat with all the high tech gear gettin out fished by kid in a 10 foot flat bottom aluminum boat. And then a little lady from Arkansas fishin from the bank sittin on a M Deere wins the tournament. Oh!! I forgot to mention. The the Kid on the other CA had water in one rear tire. Did you know that JW?
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Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 30 Oct 2011 at 9:45pm
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Here- watch how Ralph completes his pull: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFqRgvsOYUI |
Posted By: Ken in Texas
Date Posted: 30 Oct 2011 at 10:17pm
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i'm Sorry Mr Kamp. I got this message on a black screen " A error has occured. Try again later" Kinda like my pullin. Try again later. I will put some of your ideas to work. I wish I had a sled of my own to test theories.
What are your thoughts on liquid ballast. Nothing I can do to go with taller tires unless I can sneek my CA in as a "Factory HC" I'm kinda stuck with 24s and the 3.5 MPH speed limit.
What are your theorys on why a narrow tire will outpull a wee bit taller wider tire on a less than 4000 pound tractor. Most everything else being equal as far as weight distribution front and back
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Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2011 at 4:58am
| It goes back to track conditions. I have seen the narrow tires out pull wider tires on some track conditions. Then not in other conditions. |
Posted By: Charlie175
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2011 at 6:45am
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With my ASAE hitch on the B I get hardly any front lift. If I remove it and pull direct from the drawbar the front comes up. This goes against the theory of the shorter the better? ------------- Charlie '48 B, '51 CA, '56 WD45 '61 D17, '63 D12, '65 D10 , '68 One-Ninety XTD |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2011 at 7:05am
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What your not looking at is . Tire height does change gear ratio. Was the little tire tractor in first gear? Was the track a track a power track where the lowest gear with 25 hp is going to have a advantage? how much difference in bars and contact patch differenc is they really between the tires ? What does your holes look like you dig when spinning out? Does the little tire tractor run a sherman step up? Do you run a sherman step down with tall tires? ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: naylorbros
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2011 at 8:16am
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I have never heard of tire height changing gear ratios, I thought that you had to open the tractor up to change gear ratios and change the gears. Tire height will change the speed at which you go down the track with all other conditions being the same, such as gear ratios and engine rpm. Thanks Ken
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Posted By: Kip-Utah
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2011 at 8:32am
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True, tire size changes do not change the mechanical gear ratio of the tractor, however going taller or shorter DOES change your effective final ratio. That's why deviating from stock tire sizes on your truck will make the speedometer read wrong. Kip ------------- HANSEN'S OLD ORANGE IRON. Showing, Pulling, & Going!! |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2011 at 9:23am
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Yes, what ML MEANT is that going to larger diameter tire changes Effective Drive Ratio. It's all 3.14 * tire diameter there. Reason why a narrower tire will often out-pull a wider, is because of soil properties I noted above. Soil has the ability to be compacted, and when tire pressure (particularly the lugs) compacts it, the soil's shear strength is increased. IF you run a wider tire, the lug contact force is distributed over a larger area, which means compaction force is reduced, and shear strength of the soil falls. This is where chosing the tire for the track is of utmost importance- if you're on dry sand, you'll get very little shear strength through compaction, and you'll get very high rolling resistance because the tire digs and sinks down, having to waste power climbing out. Running a wider tire reduces horsepower loss here. If you're on very hard soil, the wide tire doesn't create enough compaction pressure on the lugs to cause them to 'bite' in. The reason why drawbar length and hight make a difference, is illustrated by drawing the tractor, drawbar, and sled from the side-view. Draw a straight line from the middle of the driven wheel, through the center of the RIGID DRAFT POINT. By this, I mean the point at which the part of the draft linkage which is rigid with respect to the tractor. Let's say you have a standard drawbar, non-swinging, locked down, 10" above the ground, 20" back from the wheel center, and attached to that is a chain. The chain is a flexable draft point, so draw your line to the point where the chain attaches. Now draw a line from the center of the tire CONTACT point, up through same point as the chain attachment point. Now draw a line from wheel contact to center of wheel, and you have a triangle. The BOTTOM side of the triangle is the portion of draft reaction which causes the front tractor wheels to lift under wheel thrust. The top portion, is the reaction which occurs under draft tension and transferred weight (from the sled). The FRONT side (the vertical line) illustrates the initial angle at which the tractor SITS (if you're running small front tires, it'll be leaned forward). NOW... draw a line from the CENTER of the vertical line, through the center of the draft point... this distance is the length of draft. Longer this line is, the more stable your draft will be, but the less control you'll have while trying to steer... because the draft load will WANT to point the tractor straight ahead, as long as right-left traction is equal. Now for the last lines: Draw a line from the chain connection point, to the sled connection point. Now draw a horizontal line from the sled connection point to a point directly under the chain connection point. This is the thrust angle which is applied to the drawbar. As the sled is drawn harder (either by greater draft force, or more weight transfer on the sled), this angle will cause the balance of tire-force vs. nose lift to change, because the draft load is not straight rearward. Now, draw two vertical lines- one from the drawbar to the ground, and another from the sled draft point to the ground. This is the length of the draft chain. Longer you make this chain, the lower the thrust angle, which means changes in draft force, have a lesser effect on the forces occuring at the drawbar. Mebbie I should draw this out... Anyway, the point here is, the 'magic bullet' for having a successful pull, is having a draft arrangement which 1) meets the rules, and 2) causes a STABLE PULL over the whole length of the track, and finally 3) ALLOWS the operator to PICK HIS LINE. If you have a platform that's too stable under draft, you'll be limited to driving whatever line IT wants... which means, it'll be totally steered as a result of the sled's drag, and pulled off course by whichever tire has least traction. If you have a platform that's unstable, it will jump, bounce, and wig-wag all over under draft load. Tires that bounce on the ground don't get good traction. Tractors that can't settle down and pull straight, will not stay on the course. |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2011 at 9:52am
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Ah... the other question... tire ballast. There's advantages and disadvantages to ballasting techniques. When doing tractor-pulling, you'll see that most guys don't run substantial amounts of liquid ballast, and there's several reasons why. Here's a short list of the advantages and disadvantages, and that'll sum up why they employ ballast the way they do: Liquid ballast advantages: Cost Mass (it can get heavy fast) Position: tire fluid CAN present the lowest center-of-gravity of any ballast technique... but only if the tire is partially filled. The maximum CG of a ballasted tire will NEVER be higher than the center of the wheel, as such, a half-filled tire will lower the tractor's composite CG. Inertia- the tire can spin without the fluid 'following along', so the wheel can start or stop motion and not cause an appreciable strain on the drivetrain. Load: Tire fluid is in the tires, so it's not carried on the chassis, not loading bearings or axle housings. Disadvantages: Position: your ballast is ALWAYS centered on the centerline of the axle. If you need more weight FORWARD of the axle, tire ballast will NOT help. Predictability: Adding or removing 34lbs of tire ballast to suit a competition scale is not fun... you'll be standing out there, helping the tire pee into a graduated cylinder, and weighing buckets of fluid to sort it out. Really fun trying to get two ballasted tires to weigh the same amount. Track adaptability: Tire changes suck... and carrying several sets of tires to accomodate a varying track makes your trailer really heavy, really fast. Tire flexibility: Gases are compressible, liquids are not. When you use a tire filled with air, the amount of deflection the tire will produce under a given force, is a function of the initial pressure (sitting on a jackstand) to the final pressure (sitting on the ground). Since air compresses, the tire deflects fine, and pressure inside the tire will rise just a smidgen. If you replace HALF that air with fluid, you're effectively removing half the compressible volume, so the pressure CHANGE between jackstand and ground DOUBLES. Now remove all but just a tiny bit of air, replace it with fluid... the pressure change will be dramatically higher. This is why, when driving a tractor with fully-filled tires... the ride is rough... no compliance to the earth. Iron/steel/lead weights: Advantages: Predictability: a 68.3lb iron weight, will generally always be 68.3lbs, unless you drop and chip a chunk out... and paint is a pretty good indicator of damage. Nice thing, is that a 68.3lb iron weight can easily be measured out on your wife's digital electronic bathroom scale, and while the scale may NOT be perfect, it'll be a whole lot closer than say... a 3-gallon bucket of liquid, where part of it spilled on the ground... and of course, you won't be stealing your wife's bathroom scale to weigh buckets at the track... Placeability: You can put it behind the wheels, under the wheels, in front of the wheels, above the wheels... alongside the clutch, out on a bracket up front, all on the left side... wherever you want, in segments you want. {important note here- if you use iron wheel weights, it will increase the polar moment of inertia of the drive wheels, which can be dangerous in competitions where high wheel speed is allowed... a wheel that breaks loose, and has a high polar moment, will want to continue to spin, and roll through all sorts of stuff before stopping). Iron weights, especially easily removable ones, can be moved from tractor to tractor, so that if you have two machines, and pull in five classes, you can do it all with just one set of weights- by moving weights from tractor to tractor. Start with the tractor extra-light (aluminum wheels, etc) in the smallest, and add weights as you move up in classes. Disadvantages: Cost to obtain. Yeah, they're pricey compared to liquid, but then again, you won't spill too much iron on the ground, and not be able to FIND it... Cost to use: Iron weights and old men aren't a great combination. When using iron weights, one either needs to have a good medical card, or bring along a pair of high-school linemen as a pit crew, and they eat lots of expensive pizza. Cost of gloves and shoes: When having iron weights lying around in the shop, they frequently tip over onto your fingers and toes. Best to budget for thick gloves, band-aids, and steel-toe'd boots. Did I mention a good medical card? |
Posted By: Ken in Texas
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2011 at 10:14am
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The Smaller Tires on the other CA were so far gone that the brand and size was not easy to read. They were 10-24s with 45 degree lugs. Some were missing . Some were pealed back and packed full of dirt underneath . We both pulled in first so the gear ratio was different due to tire circumfrence. Neither engine was anything but bone stock and both of us spun out with power to spare . My drawbar set up and his could have made a huge difference. His was home made and shorter than my stock length Pin hitch length . Both were at the max height of 20 inches. His weights were on the floor pan and hanging half ahead and under the axle , No wheel weights and water in 1tire. No extra forward weight other than all the cultivator brackets left on the tractor.
I had wheel weights. No water. And all my other weights were directly behind and above the center line of the axles. I was a little light in the front. Real light at spin out.
I did not notice where he picked up the front and by how much or if he picked up the front at all.
My CA without any weights and water with me on it weighs a certified 2440. With 2-145 lb wheel weights plus other loose weight I get up to 3000. His CA was close to 3000 without the 5 yellow suitcases he hung under and laid flat under the seat. Both CAs have the heavy Cast SFW.
The track changed a lot over night and went from damp and a bit soft to hard and dusty. The finishing order did not change.
The sled chooses the line you are forced to take for you in the lighter classes. I always try to keep myself pulling directly ahead of the center of the sled and hope to miss any holes. The track master at the drivers meeting reminds the light weight pullers of this fact and cautions them to not even try to change the direction of the sled.
Here is my theory on a big tire contact patch verses a small tire patch. With the same downforces applied the smaller tire has more lbs per square inch than a big tire. It's like driving a blunt end 16 penny nail verses a 12 inch bolt with the same hammer. If the Pounds of downforce per square inch IN TOTAL for the big tire calculates to be less than the small tire the small tire has the slip advantage and will go farther. Does this make any sense???
If the hard track is under loose dirt the narrow tire will find quicker than a big wide tire . The big tire will probably spin out in the marbles without getting down to a solid pulling surface.
Panky asked about what the holes in the track left behind looked like. Thats something I didn't take much notice of. They ask us to not dig holes after the forward progress stops at the drivers meeting. I would imagin the little tire dug a deeper hole than a big tire. Probably found some virgin soil.
This is the second time in a long time that I went pullin without water in the tires.
My drawbar is fixed. I think I need a more flexable design where changes in height and length are quick and easy. I also need weight brackets fabricated ahead of and behind the axle. To adjust balance better. I won't need as many weights if I water up the tires to help get to 3000. I figure I need about 16 gallons in each tire. Lets see, bare tractor and me 2440 + 290 wheel weights + 270 water = exactly 3000. Our rules allow for a 1% over in class so to be on the safe side about 15 gallons of water in each tire will be OK. May go nuts and go to 4000 and play David against the Goliaths just for fun. Is that madness or what?
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Posted By: Ken in Texas
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2011 at 10:41am
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Good stuff Mr Dave Kamp.
You got the physics of Tractor pulling success figured to the ounce. I just love not having to ponder the why and wherefore when sombody has already figured it out and is will ing to pass it on. Thanks for jumping in here and giving us all a education.
OT- By any chance do you have any Holland Dutch folks in your background?
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Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2011 at 10:43am
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Charlie 175. When you move to the drawbar you are actually hooking higher. Your drawbar is running down hill from the final drives. Your ASAE hitch runs the hook point lower to the ground than when hitching to the drawbar. If you look at my drawbar picture I have the clevis under the drawbar. If I put it on top the front wheels come up on a short chain. I have a stack of 1/2" steel blocks on the bolt and a 1/2" difference one way or the other makes a difference. Carry a ruler and a note pad and make small changes they make a note of what you did as well as the results.
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Posted By: DSpears N IL
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2011 at 12:02pm
Hi Ken! I will add a couple pictures from pulling with worn Goodyear 13.6 to like new Firestones at 7 to 8 lbs PSI. I like my newer Stones that was on the rims that you now have. DeWayne
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Posted By: j.w.freck
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2011 at 12:07pm
| dave... i have another question for you,in a 13.9x28 rear tire how many gallons of cheap gl;ycol will i have to add for down here in texas where the temp.very rasrly gets below 10 degrees .according to my handy dandy chart,each tire holds 43 gallons of water with a weight of 360 lbs.i figure 4-5 gallons of glycol will be ok... |
Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2011 at 12:14pm
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boone county?
------------- 210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers! |
Posted By: j.w.freck
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2011 at 12:20pm
| thx ed |
Posted By: DSpears N IL
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2011 at 12:31pm
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YES to Boone County!!!!!
DeWayne
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Posted By: j.w.freck
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2011 at 12:37pm
| sounds like i am dealing with a bunch of wineos....... |
Posted By: Ken in Texas
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2011 at 1:14pm
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Not that hard to figure out JW. There are sometimes two separate Q&As going on the same time. I only have 2 gallons of green stuff in the 13-6s on my work tractor. I don't even think it gets slushy. If it did, whats the hurt? It has been in there for a long long time. The pullers stay inside and it seldom gets anywhere below freezing in the barn if I remember to close the doors. They got just plain water in them. Plain water weighs like 8.3 lbs to the gallon.
If I know how much weight I want to add I measure the water before I put it in . A tank sprayer puts it in without spilling a drop. Now If I can just figure out exactly how to get it all back out. I'm working on that with a siphon tube than fits in the stem with the valve core out.
DeWayne. The Good- Years I have aren't quite as worn as yours. What Ply Rateing are those? What weight class are you pullin in in the pictures. Welcome to the Madness. Kenny
BTW. The JD rims have the 19 3/4 c to c bolt circle so they fit all my wheels perfect. The first Jap rims with Firestones on em I found were off a MF 1050 and were 20 1/4 C to C
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Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2011 at 5:28pm
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the reason i asked about your holes is they tell you alot about tire pressure ,flat hole in bottom is right ,cuped hole to much air, hole raised in the center not enough air. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Ken in Texas
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2011 at 6:58pm
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I can see now that I need a pulling crew to help me do all the checking of this and that carefully before the track maintainer covers up all the evidence.
DeWayne
Do you have a picture of your drawbar setup we can look at? I like that weight box design and location full of what looks like a couple more engine sideweights and other stuff. I'm thinking a few more pounds up front will help me a bunch if it works for you. All I have up there now is the cast iron SFW. Are you running with any water in the tires?
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Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2011 at 7:09pm
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when you back up to let the chain be unhooked and start to pull off look back just a few seconds. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: DSpears N IL
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2011 at 8:18pm
Hi Ken! I do not have any ballast in the tires. The tires are 4 ply. The 7 to 8 lbs of tire pressure gives me the flat bottom track when I am done pulling. My Drawbar is the standard snap-coupler with the twisted clevis as hig as it will go. I had the weight bracket fabricated to hold 2 sets of engine sideweights or hang suitcase weights on. I have 2 sets of rear wheel weights along with front wheel weights. I had another weight bar fabricated to mount on the front cultivator bracket. The lightest class we pull in is 3600lbs which is the class with the goodyear tires. The 2nd photo is from this year with the Stones tires and 4000 LB class. Hope that I have answered all open questions. DeWayne
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Posted By: j.w.freck
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2011 at 8:35pm
| ken...i pulled 132.4 with the 45-diesel.john deere a pulled 132.5.didnt have enough md 20 20 in the tires...do they have any more pulls in our area soon??? |
Posted By: Ken in Texas
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2011 at 10:46pm
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That's about it for this year JW.
There are a few antique pulls in the early spring out west of us. They are put on by local clubs using the pay per hook system that is so popular out that way. One privately owned sled makes the rounds out thata way. I figure if I got to haul that far to pull for bragin rites only I shouldn't have to antie up to hook on top of my other expenses.
Our EastTX club sled only gets used twice a year. April and October. Lonestar Tyler has a sled that gets used once a year in September . The Lake country sled may be used up to four times a year up around Sulphur Springs and Winnsboro. I think Red Rivers sled is used once at Paris. The North Texas club sled has a once a year pull at Terrel. Northern Lousiana has pulling events as does Southwest Arkansas. As far as I know our EDGETA insurance is good for any of the Ark-La-Tx pulls. All the pulls close don't ask for a hook fee. There is a rumor that there may be a pull one day at the Canton Show and Swap Meet. It never seems to materialize. I guess the next one real close by is Henderson in April 2012.
Thanks for the great pictures and details Dewayne. The last time I checked my tire pressure, it was 5. Maybe less now that it cooled off. Seriously thinking about adding a little water and loosing some iron before I drop a side weight on my foot.
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Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2011 at 1:01am
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Hi JW! Okay, assuming 43 gallons TOTAL... Freezing point for a 75%/25% mix of water and PROPYLENE GLYCOL (non-toxic pink RV anti-freeze) is 12.5F. Propylene Glycol weighs 8.625 lbs/gallon. With that, you'll have 32.25gallons of water (258lbs) and 10.75 gallons (92.7lbs) for about 350lbs. Interesting facts to note- Etheylne Glycol weighs just under 9.5lbs per gallon... heavier than water. If you fill your radiator or tires with pure Ethylene Glycol, you'll experience freezing at -10F... Yep, anti-freeze will freeze... But if you add water to create a 70% EG/30% water mix, the freezing point DROPS to -60F!!! To reach your 10F, you gotta go about 35% EG to 65% water... that comes out to 28 gallons of water, 13 gallons of Ethylene Glycol, for a total load weight of 224+123.5= 347.5lbs. Yes, the math is right... you'll actually have a few more pounds, by using the lighter non-toxic stuff... |
Posted By: j.w.freck
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2011 at 6:28pm
| well ken.....i got me another 45-diesel today...pick it up when we go deer hunting at the farms... |
Posted By: Ken in Texas
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2011 at 7:07pm
| If you keep finding them up in cold country and bring them all down here, the price for the last few left up there is going to be out of site. They are already talking about how rare they are. Except at your house. |
Posted By: j.w.freck
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2011 at 9:16pm
| dave...thx for the glycol/water ratio.very close to what i had figured out...thx again |
Posted By: monitordoc
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2011 at 9:41pm
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What method of paying for the sled do you have? Here in minnesota I have only seen pay per hook. Usually $15 per hook. ------------- WD,D17-S4,180,D21 |
Posted By: Ken in Texas
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2011 at 11:03pm
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Paying for the Sled and Scales? I hope this answers the question. It is paid for and has been for years. The East Texas Antique Tractor and Engine Association Owns it. It was built and maintained by association members. Club Members, as a team, volunteer their labor to operate and maintain the equipment. Pull back tractors are usually donated by local dealers. A few Sponsors buy advertizing displayed on the sled and on banners at events.
Our Club Members bring our Sled to the State Fair of Lousiana at Shreveport and area EDGETA pullers from 4 states put on a Friday and Saturday Antique Tractor Pulling Contest & Show at the Fair. When we are not pullin we are workin so the others can pull. We are in our tenth year now of putting on this show. The Fair in return provides a space for a track and makes a sizeable financial contribution to the clubs general fund for our efforts. The Fair provides the awards for the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place winners in each class. The sled was built by the membership and maintained by the membership . Funding for Updates and general maintainance of the Sled, Scale and related items is paid for out of the clubs general fund.
The club also puts on a local 2 day show and pull at the Rusk County Ag Center in the spring. The public is charged Admission to the show. Exhibitors and pullers get in free by showing their current EDGETA Membership / insurance card. At this event again it works like this. When your not pullin and there is work to do or a job needs doing you volunteer.
We find no need to charge a actual per hook fee nor do any of the other regional clubs maintaining a sled and scales and putting on a show. The regional Clubs are all Branch Member Clubs of EDGETA and pull under EDGETA Antique Tractor Pull Rules.
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Posted By: Charlie175
Date Posted: 02 Nov 2011 at 6:29am
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Here most, if not all antique pulls are pay by the hook with spectators getting in free. ------------- Charlie '48 B, '51 CA, '56 WD45 '61 D17, '63 D12, '65 D10 , '68 One-Ninety XTD |
Posted By: trkpuller
Date Posted: 05 Jun 2022 at 7:02pm
| So how fast can you spin a ballasted tire? I see some hot farm tractors with incredible wheel speed. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 05 Jun 2022 at 7:11pm
| No one who makes serious HP has fluid in the rear tires. Why not?? Most tractors have been stripped of any excess weight to get into specific weight classes. Fluid just isn't used. |