unleaded gas vs ethanol
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Topic: unleaded gas vs ethanol
Posted By: tractorman
Subject: unleaded gas vs ethanol
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2011 at 9:12pm
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until now i have been able to buy gas with neither lead nor alcohol, now my service station is saying there will be no more gas without out ethanol. my equipment is all older and i kinda felt safe from the stories of ruined engines especially in small engines like mowers and chainsaws. What am i to do lead substitues, stabil other additives?. As long as they work i enjoy using my older equipment and am happy with it ------------- Play on 38 B 49 WF , working on D14, D15 B10, Bee 12 B110. use 185 and 190 |
Replies:
Posted By: DanD
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2011 at 9:18pm
| I have never had a problem with small engines and/or antique equipment or my newer automobiles using 10% ethanol gasoline. I wouldn't worry a lot about it. I don't know where exactly in West Central Wisconsin you are, but Kwik Trip stores have no ethanol gasoline in their high octane gasoline. Doesn't cost much more for the small amount that little engines use. |
Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2011 at 9:22pm
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I've been using ethanol in everything I own since it was available at the pump, many years. The only thing I had trouble with that might be attributable to the ethanol, is the gas line on my 20 year old Ryan weed wacker dissolved. Maybe it was just too old. I'm sure if I replaced the fuel line, I could get it running again. ------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: Jeff Z. NY
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2011 at 9:28pm
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Some small engine companies are now saying to use the middle grade gas in their engines.
No problems so far with the tractor engines. ------------- I Love Meatballs and Dumplings on Toast with Gravy and Rosemary and ??? {Open For Suggestions} |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2011 at 9:29pm
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I bought a new F250 in 1989 and started buying ethanol in central illinois at that time. I have used it in the mower, weedeater and several B tractors and the D17 for 20 years. No problems. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: Brian Jasper co. Ia
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2011 at 9:32pm
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Most small engines have had Stellite exhaust valves and seats for decades. About the only problem with ethanol blends is they usually will have a shorter shelf life vs straight gasoline. I do put Stabil in my gas engines that don't get used often. ------------- "Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford |
Posted By: jccleav
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2011 at 10:36pm
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Ethanol will act like a cleaner. I have seen it cause problems in older vehicles where the fuel filter gets plugged. Ethanol burns hotter the straight gas. Every small engine mechanic I have talked to said not to use ethanol. That being said, I have used ethanol in a variety if engines without an issue. |
Posted By: mdtractormechanic
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2011 at 10:40pm
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You may want to view these links:
http://www.fuel-testers.com/ethanol_engine_precautions.html - http://www.fuel-testers.com/ethanol_engine_precautions.html
http://www.fuel-testers.com/list_e10_engine_damage.html - http://www.fuel-testers.com/list_e10_engine_damage.html
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/alternative-fuel/biofuels/e15-gasoline-damage-engine - http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/alternative-fuel/biofuels/e15-gasoline-damage-engine
http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyle/content/may2009/bw20090514_058678.htm - http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyle/content/may2009/bw20090514_058678.htm ------------- Joe's 1939 Model WC, 1940 Model RC, 1944 & 1950 Model C's, B-125 PU |
Posted By: bwp
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2011 at 11:02pm
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Ditto on the articles posted by in mdtractor. Here in CA it's already 15% ethanol. I got worse mileage in my 74 Roadrunner and 1970 F250 with the low grade 15% ethanol/gas. Worse mileage and poor shelf life, means more money from state and federal gas taxes. I use 89 octane now. Especially use Stabil in 87 octane for smaller engines. Just my experience.
Brad |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2011 at 5:46am
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In any engine that I run often I've had no problems but anything that sets a while I may end up cleaning the carb. I've been buying the non ethanol gas at Fleet Farm for my tractors and small engines with no further trouble except that Fleet Farm is 20 miles away so in a pinch I still end up using the crappy ethanol from the country gas station down the road. ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: MUM FARMER
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2011 at 6:31am
| Its junk!!! eats up anything rubber or plastic poor shelf life aluminum carbs will start to grow barnicles because the alcohol attracts moisture like a magnet the biggest problem is the fact if not treated it wont last 6-8 months |
Posted By: Rogers
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2011 at 6:43am
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You haven't been able to get regular leaded gas for 30 years at a gas station, so being unleaded isn't a problem. Ethanol gas isn't a problem from a standpoint of running and everyday use. The problem with Ethanol gas comes from sitting in carburetors. Ethanol attacks rubber seals worse than gasoline without Ethanol. ------------- Think for yourself and be your own expert. Be willing to change your mind; however, willingness to change your mind doesn’t mean that you will. Blindly following any path is the pinnacle of insanity. |
Posted By: Stan IL&TN
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2011 at 7:14am
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I for one shut off the gas and drain the bowl if it's going to sit for more than a week. If I can't drain the bowl I let it run until it dies. No problems here. ------------- 1957 WD45 dad's first AC 1968 one-seventy 1956 F40 Ferguson |
Posted By: TexasAllis
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2011 at 7:42am
| Run premium in the small engines. My mowers, chainsaws and weedeaters run nothing but. Back when I was in the hardware business I had many a rep tell me to run the best gas I could get. |
Posted By: Dave Richards (WV)
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2011 at 8:24am
| I have only experienced two problems with ethanol. It ate up the fuel line on my D14 and filled the carb with little black rubber "clinkers". I am slowly replacing all of my fuel lines with metal ones. The other problem is the rubber tip on most newer needle valves. Ethanol softens the rubber and they stick. If the D14 sets longer than a week or so, i have to unfasten the fuel line at the carb and give it a 30 PSI enema. |
Posted By: Coke-in-MN
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2011 at 8:51am
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In any of my motorcycles the ethanol runs fine so far but it sure makes a mess of the pot metal carbs if it sets for long in the bowl. Plan on spending a lot of time cleaning them .On one mower the same problem the carb became junk. Had chain saws that would not run after setting a month with gas in them, dump out old gas and put in fresh and start right up.
Anything that will set for more than a few weeks should be drained and carb ran dry. ------------- Life lesson: If you’re being chased by a lion, you’re on a horse, to the left of you is a giraffe and on the right is a unicorn, what do you do? You stop drinking and get off the carousel. |
Posted By: 427435
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2011 at 8:57am
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The vast majority of majority of the bad things you hear about E10 is old wives stories. However, there are 3 things it can do that will cause problems. 1. If your fuel tank (or gas storage tank) has accumulated water over time, the E10 will absorb it and lead to a lean condition on carbureted engines------to the point of missing and not running. Once the water is out of your fuel system, the E10 will keep it out if you regularly use it. 2. It is a solvent and will remove varnish buildup in your fuel system. That can lead to plugged fuel filters and carburetors. 3. It can dissolve some old fuel lines and rubber parts (however, old fuel lines may fail even without E10) That being said, I've been using E10 in the following for 12+ years without incident: 1960's McCulloch chainsaw 1967 Corvette (with 3 carbs) Allis B10 garden tractor 1977 IH Scout 1977 boat with a Mercruiser I/O (6 cyl. Chevy engine) 1985 Allis 917 garden tractor 1980's Simplicity GTHL-17 garden tractor 1990 Scag with a 20 hp Kohler 1990's string trimmer And a number of newer cars with fuel injection. I use Stabil in the cars and boat, but don't bother with the small engines. Works for me. ------------- Mark B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel, GTH-L Simplicity Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not. |
Posted By: Byron WC in SW Wi
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2011 at 9:26am
| I burn mostly diesel/biodiesel. The gas sits in my WC for months at a time and I Haven't had a problem yet but I try to keep it full so water doesn't get in it. I'd do that with gas or diesel too. The only thing I burn non ethanol gas in is my smaller engines like chain saws and weedwackers. I burned ethanol for a long time in those engines without a problem but I heard that you shouldn't use ethanol in them so I don't. For the 4-5 gallons a year I burn through them it's not a big deal. |
Posted By: mdtractormechanic
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2011 at 9:57am
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This Isn't a wives tale. As a mechanic I've seen the damage sited in the articles. People replace parts on small engines thinking it's just part of aging. Infact, many of these components have failed due to the ethanol content. Bottom line is that it shortens component life whether you notice it or not. Yes, you can do all the little prevention methods and temporary fixes but why should you have to. ------------- Joe's 1939 Model WC, 1940 Model RC, 1944 & 1950 Model C's, B-125 PU |
Posted By: 427435
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2011 at 10:10am
Actually, it's mechanics tales, not old wives tales. They often blame the wrong thing for the failures they see. All the fuel lines and carbs on my engines are fine after 12+ years of E10. Explain that. ------------- Mark B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel, GTH-L Simplicity Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not. |
mdtractormechanic wrote:Posted By: KY
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2011 at 10:21am
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Not sure if stations use it here in KY or not, probably so. Makes me a little leary about the quality of the gas in my bulk tank. Ive seen Lucas gas additives for ethanol gas, may pour some in the bulk tank for a safegaurd. |
Posted By: mdtractormechanic
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2011 at 1:44pm
I posted the links for people to make their own chooses and to give them the benefit of what I've seen over my 30 plus yrs. I didn't routinely work on autos but heavy equipment where engines like farm tractors are usually pushed to the limits. If you read these links, I don't think you would be so ready to insult mechanics but I could be wrong. ------------- Joe's 1939 Model WC, 1940 Model RC, 1944 & 1950 Model C's, B-125 PU |
Posted By: mdtractormechanic
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2011 at 2:03pm
KY, ethanol absorbs water and that is the number 1 problem with longterm storage. I believe the shelf life is 3 to 4 months. Even if the tank was water free it absorbs the moisture from the air. That's the nature of alcohol. We used alcohol in diesel machines to help burn off the water in the tanks. Be carefull of additives that claim to 'remove' water from the tank. ------------- Joe's 1939 Model WC, 1940 Model RC, 1944 & 1950 Model C's, B-125 PU |
Posted By: Rawleigh
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2011 at 2:58pm
| I have had fuel lines turn into bubble gum and the bowls of carbs rusted and/or with white crystallized white deposits in the float bowl. Also gas tanks rust badly with it. If the engine is run at least weekly you will probably have no problem. otherwise hang on to your hat!! |
Posted By: KY
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2011 at 3:13pm
| So is there anything you can add to the gas in a bulk tank to keep it longer? Pretty expensive investment that could ruin. |
Posted By: mdtractormechanic
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2011 at 3:24pm
I'm sure there are more knowledgeable people here that can help. The only thing I know is if the fuller the tank the less likelihood of contamination by condensation but I guess that's not practical for bulk storage.
By the way, is your tank metal or non-metal? ------------- Joe's 1939 Model WC, 1940 Model RC, 1944 & 1950 Model C's, B-125 PU |
Posted By: Josh(NE)
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2011 at 9:11pm
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I'd try the Lucas additive because they have some of the best products out there. My younger brother is a small engine mechanic and was just at a kohler school, the kohler guys say with almost every engine problem, ethanol could be responsable for it. ------------- Allis Express '65 190XT, 37 B, '72 170, '83 8030, and the IH 560 was a mistake |
Posted By: Brian Jasper co. Ia
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2011 at 9:53pm
------------- "Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford |
Posted By: mdtractormechanic
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2011 at 11:06pm
If the equipment has a separator that's great. Much of the heavy equipment I've worked on over the years had no such device. Some amounts of alcohol put in the fuel during winter to eliminate the water from freezing was a common practice. Small amounts had little if any affect on diesel's lubricating properties. And oviously, if there is to much water you would have to drain and flush the system and find the source of the fuel's contamination.
I could site many more internet source from the UK and Australia. I could copy the info from my service manuals and post them but I don't think it would do any good. Many people are going to have their own opinions regardless. I'm finding that trying to be helpful on this site has it's drawbacks. ------------- Joe's 1939 Model WC, 1940 Model RC, 1944 & 1950 Model C's, B-125 PU |
Posted By: 427435
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2011 at 11:35pm
You take umbrage at my comment about mechanics tales, but using alcohol in a diesel engine to get rid of water is an excellent example. Mechanics have been know to do things, based on word of mouth instead of actual technical knowledge--------things that can go badly. As far as storage life, when I listed the things I run E10 in, I didn't mention any of my fuel injected vehicles. One of them is a motorhome with a Ford V10 and a 70 gallon gas tank. Every November, it gets stored with a full tank of E10. Every May, it fires right up and runs fine. I do use Stabil in the tank, but that would be necessary even with "pure" gas (Stabil was "invented" long before E10 came into being). ------------- Mark B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel, GTH-L Simplicity Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not. |
Posted By: mdtractormechanic
Date Posted: 15 Sep 2011 at 12:48am
Just curious, what's your background, your area of training? I had to do a 4 year apprenticeship through Caterpillar and pass to be called a mechanic. In subsequent years I had to travel to various schools on the east coast for product update training. I'm trying to figure out why you are so down on mechanics. Yes, there are some bad ones out there. And yes, I do take umbrage of your 'mechanics tales' and 'based on word of mouth instead of actual technical knowledge' comments. If you're having a problem with me just say so. ------------- Joe's 1939 Model WC, 1940 Model RC, 1944 & 1950 Model C's, B-125 PU |
Posted By: se iowa picker
Date Posted: 15 Sep 2011 at 7:32am
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Dont always let the 87 fuels fool you.They have to be 87 dont mean they cant be over. The local caseys had a load of gas come in and some guys did have problems with newer chainsaws and when they pulled the gas at the station they found it to be 41 percent ethanol, this was back when gas was high and corn was cheap so the blenders could buy it cheap. As for burning up small engines I was always under the impression that at times the alcohol in the gas could thin the oil mix to much and seperate it from bonding with the gas. A commercial logging supplier out of Washington state used to sell an additive to prevent the oil from seperating I dont know if it worked or not. |
Posted By: Dave in il
Date Posted: 15 Sep 2011 at 9:28am
| My previous fuel supplier didn't have ethanol for farm delivery and I would still get my 500 gallon bulk tank filled. The new supplier only has ethanol so I only get 200 to 300 gallons at a time so we use it up quicker. I don't keep it on hand during the winter when we're not mowing or using the old tractors. We buy fuel for the pickup and cars in town (it's cheaper) and we havent had problems. Plus the bill for 200 gal at a time is plenty. LOL. |
Posted By: 427435
Date Posted: 15 Sep 2011 at 11:57am
For what little it's worth, I've been a member of both the Society of Automotive Engineers and the Society of Agricultural Engineers for over 40 years. During that time, I've also served on a number of the standards making committees for these organizations. I started my professional career as a test engineer and have correctly analyzed and corrected many problems over the years. The next time you look at a 6000, or 8000, or 4W Series AC tractor, know that I was the engineering manager for those tractors. I also do most of my own "wrench" work including engine overhauls, so I know the practical side of things also. My problem is when people spread bad information or make mountains out of mole hills. Mechanics have been know to do that. My first post on the subject of ethanol/gasoline pointed out the possible problems with E10-------problems that can indeed occur under certain circumstances. However, the frequency of these "problems" gets blown out of all proportion to reality by posts such as you made. If the problems were really frequent, I would have run into it by now with my various equipment (most of mine is old) after using E10 (and storing it) exclusively for 12+ years. Someone with an old gas tractor shouldn't be too concerned about using E10 unless his fuel system is badly varnished or his fuel lines are in poor condition. If he is concerned about those things, just replace the fuel line now and add a filter to the line. And it's not a good idea to let a tractor sit for long periods of time with an almost empty fuel tank-------whether it has "pure" gas or E10 in it. ------------- Mark B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel, GTH-L Simplicity Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not. |
Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 15 Sep 2011 at 12:13pm
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Ethanol is a fuel system killer no matter the 'luck' one has had with it. The "shelf" life of E10-E85 is 6 weeks, this is documented in the marine industry where boats sit and fuel may go unused in holding tanks for weeks. There is a new stabilizer on the market just for ethanol enhanced gas it is called Star Tron and is a enzyme based stabilizer. I have been a mechanic on gas/diesel engines since 1975 and since gasahol was developed it has been a mess. Ethanol damages the bonds in some plastics, it is unstable as to longevity when presented to atmosphere, it is hydrophobic or attracts moisture and it does not stay mixed in gasoline where when you first fire off a machine on older gas that has not been mixed you get a raw burst of water/alcohol and it is what damages the engines on startups. On two stroke engines it is the epitome of destruction, I now am using mix oil designed to keep the ethanol mixed, Opti-2 by Enviro industries, it too is a enzymatic base and keeps the mix in association. I got tired of fuel lines crumbling away to nothing over a few years in my boat motors, saws and weed eaters, some research got me to using both the Star Tron and the Opti-2. |
Posted By: Brian Jasper co. Ia
Date Posted: 15 Sep 2011 at 1:43pm
I could paraphrase from both Ford and GM service info, but suffice it to say, putting alcohol in a diesel system is not good practice, so says Ford and GM.
Seeing as how I'm kinda cheap, I have used E10 fuel in everything I've owned since E10 has had a lower per gallon price (20 years or so). Both personal and professional experience say ethanol works fine. It does spoil faster than straight gasoline and it used to deteriate 'rubber' fuel components. Since the introduction of ethanol manufacturers of fuel system parts have changed materials to make them compatible with ethanol. ------------- "Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford |
Posted By: mdtractormechanic
Date Posted: 15 Sep 2011 at 1:51pm
------------- Joe's 1939 Model WC, 1940 Model RC, 1944 & 1950 Model C's, B-125 PU |
Posted By: mdtractormechanic
Date Posted: 15 Sep 2011 at 2:11pm
As for what Ford and GM says, Caterpillar said different. One once to ten gallons of fuel using Drydene fuel treat (alcohol based) didn't cause damage. ------------- Joe's 1939 Model WC, 1940 Model RC, 1944 & 1950 Model C's, B-125 PU |
Posted By: 79fordblake
Date Posted: 15 Sep 2011 at 2:13pm
| I've been using gas with ethanol for a long time without any problems. I use it in the truck, tractors, mowers, weedeaters. The mowers and weedeaters set all winter with the stuff in them and start right up in the spring. I hardly ever have any of my fuel tanks full either and still have no problems. The pumps around here say 10% ethanol. |
Posted By: clint
Date Posted: 15 Sep 2011 at 2:15pm
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jeesh. the man has prob forgot more than most people who turn wrenches know. you questioned his background- his is excellent. what is yours? ------------- Our farms stuff: agco gt55, AA 8775, 8765, 6080, 185, 180, 175, 170, d15, d14, d14, wd, wd, wd, g, F3, L3, R62 |
Posted By: daryl
Date Posted: 15 Sep 2011 at 2:18pm
| Not to get into this fight, but i have been in the Outdoor Power Equipment Industry for 20+ years. I work for a national parts distributor handling Briggs, Kohler, Onan Walbr,Zama, and a host of other brands. i know first hand that E-10 destroys fuel systems. like it or not it's probably here to stay which is good buisness for me bad for the end user. I have seen carb. and carb related parts sales double and triple in the last few years. |
Posted By: Brian Jasper co. Ia
Date Posted: 15 Sep 2011 at 3:56pm
------------- "Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford |
Posted By: Rogers
Date Posted: 15 Sep 2011 at 5:36pm
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I can assure you it is no wives or mechanics tail that it will cause buildup in a carburetor that carburetor cleaner won't remove without scrubbing. I have personally had it happen to me twice. I have heard a lot of stories of it eating up other components, and I can't speak for the validity of that. However it causes buildup in carburetors beyond regular gas when left sitting. I have seen no problems when used everyday though. ------------- Think for yourself and be your own expert. Be willing to change your mind; however, willingness to change your mind doesn’t mean that you will. Blindly following any path is the pinnacle of insanity. |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 15 Sep 2011 at 8:04pm
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Okay, now that everyone's throwing bricks... #1 killer of ENGINES showed up in SE Iowa Picker's post... and I don't see where anyone caught it... Ethanol and Methanol... are CARBOHYDRATES. Gasoline is a formulation consisting of HYDROCARBONS. Both can evaporate. We all know what varnish means... What most people don't understand, is what that 'varnish' is made of. It's the result of the lighter hydrocarbon compounds evaporating, and leaving the remaining (low volatility stuff) and all the 'impurities' (including any erosion product from fuel lines, tank, etc). This is pretty familiar 'goo' to all of us. As many have noted, carbohydrates are hygroscopic. That means- they absorb moisture... and like anything else that absorbs moisture, it can become saturated (accepting no more), and finally, supersaturated (additional absorption based on temperature elevation). So what does this mean? It means that when you put ethanol or methanol in gasoline, it may 'combine', but it doesn't really 'mix'. Here's a fun experiment: Get a GLASS pickle jar... with a good, tight sealing lid. Make sure it's clean and dry. Fill it to about 2/3rds from your favorite gasoline can of yesterday's E-10. Pour in about a cup of tap water. Close the lid tight... Shake it up good. Put it in a dark corner shelf in your shop. Come back in a month, and bring a flashlight. Don't pick it up... but SHINE THE LIGHT in it, and look at the LAYERS. Bottom layer: Water. Second layer: Water and ethanol Third layer: Ethanol Top layer: Gasoline. The mixture STRATIFIES. it settles out. (by the way, look up Specific Gravity, you'll find that a good figure for gasoline is around 737 or so. Ethanols, around 789) Now, if you look at the CHEMISTRY involved in combustion, you'll find that the combustion attitude of carbohydrates, and the flame rate curves, stoichiometry, brake-specific heat output... all those numbers are totally different from HYDROCARBON fuels. (While it is physically more 'dense' than gasoline, but Ethanol has lower brake energy, on account of FEWER bonds to be broken.) This ain't a major sin, but when you have water and fuel mixed, it's a mathematical mess. When you mix hydrocarbons and carbohydrates and water, it's an incredible nightmare. But the REAL DAMAGE... and I mean the REAL damage here... Is when you go to a fuel retailer that mebbie turns over... one 5000-gallon load of E10 blend in say... six weeks. Why? Because you're pumping from just off the bottom of the tank. Think about your pickle jar here. The first layer is water. Doesn't burn... bad deal. Second layer... water and ethanol- miserable. Okay, well, when the load is delivered, these two 'layers' frequently find their way to minimization through various filtration and centrifugal separation techniques... but some places (and you know which ones) are pretty lax about emptying out the fuel-water separators... (because it's an EPA-regulated process!) But when you get to the layer that's ALL ETHANOL, you end up with what SE IA Picker noted... but usually quite a bit worse... like... areas of 100% ethanol. See, the doom-stories of ethanol blends are out there, and many have merit, however, the GENUINE PROBLEM isn't with running 10% ethanol blend, it's what occurs to the fuel when you're not using it enough to keep the supply fresh and UNSETTLED. I'm not about to argue one side or the other (for or against fuel blends)... it's a moot situation at the consumer level- you get what you can buy, simply because the choice is frequently the determining factor of what you buy. I'll also point out that during the great depression and WW2, my grandfather and his neighbors all distilled methanol and ethanol to get solvents and fuels for his farming processes and machinery, and traded his gasoline rations to get other necessary supplies... and it burned fine in their engines, as long as everything was set up within reason. One advantage was, though... it was always fresh... no distribution chain, no long-term storage... just don't DRINK it. The trick to keeping fuel systems clean, is to keep clean fuel moving through it. Doesn't matter if it's a chainsaw, motorcycle, tractor, fighter-jet, or ocean freighter. Parking 'em is the worst thing you can do, and the only combat measure, is running the gas out of 'em, scrubbin' 'em out... and running them regularly. When in doubt, dump it out. |
Posted By: 427435
Date Posted: 15 Sep 2011 at 9:49pm
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Dave, everything you posted is technically (theoretically) correct. There are some practical things that minimize the theoretical things, however. The first one is a gas station that takes 6 weeks to sell 5000 gallons of fuel won't be in business long. Maybe it's because E10 has been in use here in Minnesota for so long, but gas station bulk tanks have been cleaned of deposits and water long ago. And the E10 in those bulk tanks make sure the tanks stay that way. Keeping fuel fresh has always been a good idea. As I posted earlier, Stabil and other such additives were around long before E10 came on the market. Again, I've stored my motorhome with a full 70 gallon fuel tank of E10 for 5-6 months for the last 6 years without issues. I did add Stabil to the fuel, but I would have done that whether it was E10 or not. While it is possible for someone to have fuel problems with E10, he may have had the same problem with "pure" gas also. After all, most of the so- called problems with E10 relate to varnish and water. If you have a lot of those things in your fuel system, you may well have problems with or without E10. As far as rubber or plastic parts, the fuel lines on old tractors were mostly steel and the carb floats were brass--------which E10 will have little affect on. ------------- Mark B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel, GTH-L Simplicity Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not. |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 16 Sep 2011 at 7:54pm
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Yep, keeping fresh fuel is the overall best solution. I'll bet, that since you're a boater (isn't there a Minnesota law that requires you to own a boat to be a resident??), that you do what most every other good boater does, and always store by filling the tank... hence, keeping the condensable airspace to a minimum... I do, and of course, it helps to store 'em where the humidity is lower. BTW... I've got an MCM 250 Chev in my 17' Sea-Ray... but it's FAR from stock... Used to have the 120 four, now it's 6-cyl EFI... pretty lumpy cam... 307 flattop pistons, pink rods... and some other 'fun'... quite a sleeper... |
Posted By: AC WD45
Date Posted: 16 Sep 2011 at 8:08pm
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43 John Deere B I had all but refused to run on the 15% ethonol. Always misses about every 2 beats when it ran it. Started using StaBil to kill the ethonol, ran like it was new. ------------- German Shepherd dad 1957 Allis Chalmers WD45 #WD234847 1951 Allis Chalmers WD #WD88193 |
Posted By: 427435
Date Posted: 16 Sep 2011 at 10:27pm
A man after my own heart. My boat is a 1977 18' aluminum Sylvan that had a 4 cylinder, 120 hp Chevy engine in it that I bought back in 1980. I pulled that engine and put in the 6 cylinder 165 hp Chevy engine. Haven't done any hot-rodding as I occasionally troll for salmon on Lake Michigan------need a nice slow, steady idle for that. In fact, the increase in power and torque makes it a little scary to run as the boat doesn't have much of a V hull and is narrow. The hole boat torques over when you open the throttle!! ------------- Mark B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel, GTH-L Simplicity Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not. |
Posted By: 427435
Date Posted: 16 Sep 2011 at 10:28pm
Stabil doesn't kill the ethanol------it just keeps the gas from going bad. You probably had some water in the tank and got it flushed out with the ethanol. Where did you get E15???? ------------- Mark B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel, GTH-L Simplicity Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not. |
Posted By: Dave in il
Date Posted: 17 Sep 2011 at 8:25am
I thought those tractors were designed to miss about every two beats when they run. LOL
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Posted By: AC WD45
Date Posted: 17 Sep 2011 at 8:58am
It's all over around town thanks to tree huggers. I go to Speed Way to get my gas now because the other two newer stations sell it. ------------- German Shepherd dad 1957 Allis Chalmers WD45 #WD234847 1951 Allis Chalmers WD #WD88193 |
Posted By: 427435
Date Posted: 17 Sep 2011 at 9:16am
Are you sure it's E15 and not E10?? I've never seen that anywhere-----around here it's either E85 for the flex fuel vehicles or E10 for everything else. ------------- Mark B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel, GTH-L Simplicity Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not. |
Posted By: wjohn
Date Posted: 17 Sep 2011 at 10:18am
Whoa whoa whoa! Don't just blame tree huggers - blame corn farmers, the ethanol plants, the government, and gasoline companies. Corn ethanol in gasoline is frustrating but until the government drops the subsidy we'll have to deal with it. We've had plenty of discussion about this before on the forum. Unfortunately, it looks like ethanol in gas is here to stay. When corn ethanol is finally tossed in favor of other plant sources, or the cheaper Brazilian ethanol after the tariff is removed, that new source will be used instead. It's still 10% ethanol around me. Apparently the EPA ruled that vehicles older than 2001 should not use the 15% ethanol mix, so gas stations would have to have two different sets of pumps. One would be for E10 and the other for E15. Most stations don't want to mess with that, so they tend to stick with E10 pumps. I'm curious if the stations by you have decided to completely get rid of the E10 in favor of E15. http://www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/fuels/additive/e15/ - http://www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/fuels/additive/e15/ As mentioned, something like Stabil is a good idea if the gas is going to sit for any period of time. So far I haven't had any problems due to ethanol other than when it sits and gunks stuff up. I'd probably be getting 50 mpg in my Civic instead of 48 if I were using "E0". If you really want good quality gas, use aviation fuel. The price is a bit shocking however, and you can't use it in road-legal vehicles. ------------- 1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1952 CA, 1956 WD-45 |
Posted By: JC-WI
Date Posted: 17 Sep 2011 at 11:55am
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I was thinking about winter coming on again, seems that I use fuel that was bought in the summer and go to start the tractors on the first cold snaps or really cold days, I have to go get hot water and pour it over the carbs and drain sediment bowls of a thicker looking liquid before the tractor s would start. Not one but 3 of them.
As the quote below,
"Get a GLASS pickle jar...
Bottom layer: Water. Second layer: Water and ethanol Third layer: Ethanol Top layer: Gasoline. The mixture STRATIFIES. it settles out" I had some fuel I was questioning about having water in and so I dumped it into a glass 1 gallon jar and let it set for a couple days in the sun light with a lid on it. When I looked at it, the jar was almost half full of a heavier liquid at the bottom. Then shook it up and the liquid seperated only a third out that time. so the other part of the origional half must have remained suspended in the gas.
That got me to thinking about why the tractors don't want to start while the cars and trucks fire right off. Number 1 reason is the vehicles don't suck the fuel off the bottom, but rather just above the bottom and have really good fuel filters in them too where as the tractor has the sediment bowl right at the bottom of the tank on gravity feed and the heavy fuel flows down to the carb... First fuel to use when trying to start a cold engine.
Not my imagination, but reality when I have had to go get hot water and pour over carb and then tractor starts like it should have.
Had 300 gallons put into barrel in end of Sept . Fuel from that barrel would cause problems all winter if I tried to use from it while the fuel from the gas cans filled in town caused no problems. When warm weather came back in the spring, barrel fuel worked just fine.
Alcoholic fuels causes a lot of problems for many.
"I'll also point out that during the great depression and WW2, my grandfather and his neighbors all distilled methanol and ethanol to get solvents and fuels for his farming processes " Up here the feds would call them moonshiners and tried to catch you...didn't matter if you were using it for tractor fuel.
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Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 17 Sep 2011 at 12:07pm
| My grandfather and his brothers were all visited for those activities, but the result was clearly not useful for any purpose other than solvent and fuel... they threw in punky wood, and all sorts of other stuff so that it was very, very obvious to anyone who even CONSIDERED drinking it... and his tractor never saw more than crossing a public road... As a result, they never attempted to prosecute. They probably also stayed back because he was well supported by the surrounding community... his rations frequently went to serve other civic duties. From what I've heard, they threatened to prosecute him for trading fuel rations, but that wasn't necessarily illegal. |