190xts vs 4020 JD
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URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=27236
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Topic: 190xts vs 4020 JD
Posted By: Richmar
Subject: 190xts vs 4020 JD
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2011 at 3:12pm
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I have noticed on" Tractor House" that the 4020's seem to be worth alot more than the one -ninety XTs. Could anyone tell me why. Is it JD loyalty ? or plain lack of knowledge.
I have experienced that the one-ninetys can out perform the 4020's ( tractor for tractor.)
You just do not see any 10,000.00 to 15,000.00 dollar XTs. WHY?
Richmar
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Replies:
Posted By: Orange Blood
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2011 at 3:41pm
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It's brand loyalty, and deere did a better job of earning it, and surviving in the early years. Nothing better or worse in reliability in my opinion, they both break or run forever. I do think that during the late 80s deere did a poorer job of engineering quality, but the green loyalty got them through it, fairly well. ------------- Still in use: HD7 WC C CA WD 2-WD45 WD45LP WD45D D14 3-D17 D17LP 2-D19D D19LP 190XTD 190XTLP 720 D21 220 7020 7030 7040 7045 3-7060 Projects: 3-U UC 2-G 2-B 2-C CA 7-WC RC WDLP WF D14 D21 210 7045 N7 |
Posted By: kip in cny
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2011 at 3:52pm
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Its all about the name. Next time your in a store with kids toys all you will find is JD and CAT toys. Thats the only name non farming kids and adults know. You can get the JD and CAT name on about anything. ------------- 160 CA 920diesel 5020 HD-3 |
Posted By: Nathan (SD)
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2011 at 4:35pm
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The 4020 got more features that the general public enjoys. Brand stability is number one reason. Everyone knows where to get JD parts. Ask someone where to get AC parts? Hell there are XT owners that aint even sure where to get parts. Independent PTO 4020 beats out the 190 live PTO. The front fuel tank is nicer. You can always get the nose of the tractor by a fuel tank. Not always so easy to get the 190 fueled, especially if you got something hooked on behind. The lack of the gearshift lever between your legs appeals to more people. This is just me on this one but I like the 4020 straight drawbar better than the 190. I just don't like that big kink in the middle of it. Now I think the number one difference is the braking systems. The JD takes no effort. Even the limpest leg can get the tractor stopped. 4020 beats the 190 in road speed. So with most farms today being spread out all over that looks alot more appealing. Now the 190 had alot nicer console for the controls, The power director beats the synchro for ease. The PTO speed is easier to chance on the 190 but for alot of people that is something that is never done so the 4020 doesn't get faulted. This is me personally but I like the square shape of the front ends on the ACs. Changing the tread settings on either brand will make everyone curse a bit. Do I think the 4020 is worth more? Yes.But as much as they are getting in difference? No.
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Posted By: DougG
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2011 at 6:01pm
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I,ll take the XT any day ,one big reason is the POWERDIRECTOR ; that gave AC a real advantage back when the HUNDRED series came out ; but JD has the loyalty thing and a real stable company with parts avaliabilty - people think of todays AGCO as a joke , with popular parts being dropped and dropping the ORANGE didnt help a thing ;one thing to think about though -4020,s can be aggrivating to get in gear - BUT THEY DONT JUMP OUT ON YOU ; that issue alone really puts a bad name on an XT |
Posted By: ILGLEANER
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2011 at 7:57pm
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A 190xt will work circles around a 4020. The brakes and steering are better on a 4020. Road gear doesnt matter,no one farmed far from home when they came out.Controls way better on a 190. 4020 light on the front end. I will take 2 190s over one 4020 everyday all day long. A 4020 would never make you anymore money then an XT. You can sell a 190xt series III for more then it sold new also. They bring so much more just because all of the hype of it being a"4020".
IG ------------- Education doesn't make you smart, it makes you educated. |
Posted By: Daehler
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2011 at 8:43pm
| I'll give JD credit on having brand stability, but i'll take a 190 any day over a 4020. Yeah I know the 190 had a little transmission problem, but it could cover more ground in a day than a 4020, it could justify the having the less hours on the trany. 4020s are just to hard to get on for me and I'm young. Shifting them are a pain, you cant speed shift and they dont seem to have the traction as the 190 does. It seems like every 4020 i've used has something different about the platform from starting it to hydrolic controls locations. I can go on all day giving dislikes about 4020's and there are no likes for me about them, so give me all them 190's and 200's any day of the week! |
Posted By: Ryan Renko
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2011 at 8:52pm
| I dont know about you, but when I think about a great notill drill its a Great Plains. A local green farmer has a john deere notill drill. Is it even close to the Great Plains in performance?? Is it just loving john deere or what?? I'm just curious. Ryan |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2011 at 8:56pm
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There are only two variations o 4020 hydraulics, either dash left (pre 1969) or side console (1969 and later). Though either could have zero, one or two remotes. There are several variations on starter control, some on the ignition switch, some a separate starter button. The changes at the beginning of the 1969 model year were so great many parts don't interchange between early and late and they have separate shop manuals and separate parts books. There were three different editions of the operator manual before 1969, I don't know how many afterwards. I don't have trouble shifting the synchro ranges in my 4020 on the go, even when pulling up to 30,000 pounds of corn in wagons though that day it didn't get up to 22 mph with that load. I started the load off in 6th, ran it up to full engine speed with the foot feed, then clutched and let the engine speed come back down and shifted to 8th gear. As smooth as my truck or car. Whether with 10,000 pounds of grain or 30,000 pounds of grain behind it. It is kind of nice to have a flat floor with no shift levers poking up, but the synchro range shifter is not intuitive to operate, it does take some practice or instruction compared to a couple conventional transmissions in line but that also makes the tractor several feet shorter and more compact. In the field, my gas 4020 with worn tires is more traction than power limited. And it will bring more money when I sell it than i paid for it so long as I don't burn it to the ground. Gerald J. |
Posted By: Eldon (WA)
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2011 at 9:03pm
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AC should have put bigger rubber on the 190XT like this one has....makes that 4020 look puny! BTW, I'd trade the JD for a nice 200....  ------------- ALLIS EXPRESS! This year: |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2011 at 9:34pm
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Between me, Dad and my brother we have and use 3 XTs and one 190 and the 190 is the only one with a mechanical live PTO. I've never noticed an inconvenience running the hydraulic PTOs on the XTs.
Whether I pull a 4020 nose up to a fuel tank or along side the tank with a 190 if I have an implement on either I still have to back away. When no implement there is no problem either way but I can stand on the drawbar to fill the 190 while the 4020 you have to climb on the front axle. That is if you want to see the fuel level so you don't over flow. The 190 holds a lot more fuel too and uses a lot less than the 4020.
The shifter is completely unnoticeable on a 190 as it comes up just under the steering wheel and the bottom of the shift lever is very far forward and out of the way. Sit on a 4020 and then a 190 and there is no comparison on the roominess of the 190 and the shifter is definitly not an issue. And the brake and clutch pedals are suspended and out of the way.
I don't notice any difference on the power steering from a 4020 to a 190 but the 190 has tilt steering as standard on the 190. Does any 4020 have tilt steering? I have never noticed one with it.
The brakes are better on a 4020 cause they last longer but a good set of brakes on a 190 will grab with little effort due to the self energizing design. When they start to not grab it's time for some upkeep.
I think there is only a mile or two per hour difference on the road unless late 4020's are faster than what I've driven but all 4020's are at least a little faster than a 190.
The 3 point hitch is real heavy duty on the 190. I rate it as better than a 4020 plus the 190 has a remote control for the hitch so you can operate the hitch up or down while standing behind the tractor for easier hook up. I don't remember a 4020 having that.
All 190 tractor have a dry aircleaner and alternator. Not all 4020's do.
The 190 has a lot better ground clearance I found out when running a 4020 in wet ground.
I think the 301 Allis engine is a better engine than the 404 in the 4020 and it can easily out lug the 404.
I feel like the 190 gives a better ride too. I never checked but I bet the 190 has a longer wheel base.
Some 4020s have a power shift tranny and that would be nice but when in mechanics school the old Deere power shift didn't have a great reputation but the power shift models did offer a difflock which to me a 190 really needs.
You sit up higher on a 190 which is nice at times.
The console controls for throttle, power director, remotes and 3-point functions and PTO for those with hydraulic actuated PTO beats the 4020 hands down.
The wheel tread is much nicer to change on a 190 if you have power shift rear wheels compared to the rack-and-pinion on a 4020 especially if it's rusted up it's almost impossible to move. I've only had one 200 that I had to use a rose bud to slide the hub otherwise if you have a good set of jack bolts for the 190 they will move.
The 2 biggest things against a 190 is the jumping out of gear which some tractors were given faulty shift rails from the factory that didn't show up until a thousand hours or more and then you can't grind gears either but the sycronizers on a 4020 will give trouble too and that isn't a cheap fix. The second thing is that Allis Chalmers isn't around anymore and AGCO isn't stable compared to John Deere never going under. I've driven both and I prefer the comfort, power and economy of a 190 XT.
------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: Oldoug
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2011 at 10:02pm
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Parts availablity and parts pricing is the difference in resale values. Where do you go for parts for your 4020? 15-20 miles to your local John Deere dealer. Where do you go for parts for your 190 XT? 40-50 miles to your local AGCO dealer, while there with half your parts needs they will gut your wallet and bank account and then tell you the other half is obsolete and discontinued try a salvage yard. When you get to the salvage yard you'll kill a day looking for the parts you need, dig them out of the dirt, try to select the best ones out of all the scrap junk and then the yard men will want top dollar for a piece of junk that was buried in the dirt ten years ago. After you have no choice but to buy it then you spend the next week cleaning it up, fixing, straightening, inspecting it, and hoping that this piece of junk works. I guess that's just my thoughts on why the resale values are different. I think both the 4020 and 190's were solid tractors and have stood the test of time. The 4020 will outlast the 190's in the future just because of the parts availablity, but I'd take a 190 over a 4020 anyday though. ------------- Matt Folkers FOLKERS RESTORATION Restoring vintage things to last so the future can enjoy our past. |
Posted By: boscoe
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2011 at 10:21pm
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i just got done tearing apart the steering housing on a 4020 because it leaked through the seals its a nightmare, about 4 hours and $900 for rebuilt ,on my 190 its a simple steering pump that is easy access and easy to replace. The jumping out of gear thing stinks on 190. The biggest difference in my area is PARTS,PARTS,AND PARTS or lack there of when its AC, just gotta deal with it. ------------- 1959 D 17 gas , 1964 190 gas, 1965 190xt gas AC 4bottom slat plow, 6 row 30in #72 planter Im not getting bigger my cloths are just getting smaller. |
Posted By: MikeB (SD)
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2011 at 11:48am
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I spent most of my teenage years on the seat of a 4020 and a XT190. The demand for this size of tractor in the mid to late sixties was huge! 4020's were being sold by the truck loads. It's almost amazing how the 4020 dominated this market like it did. No other tractor in history gained so much marketshare as did the John Deere 4020. The Allis XT190, the Farmall 856, the Case 930, the Oliver 1850, the Massey 1100, the Ford 8000, and the Minneapolis G900 were all great tractors yet the 4020 took them all to the woodshed in sales. You were not cool in those days unless you had a 4020. John Deere made over 185,000 of these things in fact 27,416 in 1966 alone. Wow! Farmall, the second best seller, sold 26,894 units from 1967-1971 plus another 4,500 or so IH 856 standards. The 930 Case was the #3 selling about 19,164 from 66-69 years and over 40,000 in its life span(1960-1969). #4 was virtually a tie between the Oliver 1850 at over 19,000 units (1964-1969) and the XT190 at over 22,000(1966-1971). Massey 1100 was probably next however no one knows exactly how many the made my guess is about 12,000? Ford 8000 again no one knows maybe 7,000 units?
In 1979 my dad, brother, and I plowed over 1600 acres with the XT190 and 4020 pulling identical F145 five bottom john deere plows. Every fifth round the XT would lap the 4020, in fact I bet every tractor I mentioned above would out pull a 4020 in heavy field work. I always thought the 4020 fuel tank was a joke. It blocked the clean out to the radiator and only held 34 gallons the XT 190 held 48 gallons of fuel. The John Deere 4020 was responsible for the aftermarket auxilary fuel tanks with it ours would hold 74 gallons of fuel. In a 10 hour plow day the Deere would drink it's 72 gallons to the XT's 48. I still remember the neighbors driving by and laughing at all the smoke coming out of the XT's exhaust stack. John Deere owners thought that the AC's burned so much more fuel, LOL how little did they actually know, but it was still that perception that hurt sales. Their is a good farmall story written in one of Ken Updikes books were IH was holding field demenstrations and the XT190 and Oliver 1850 were noticeably walking away from the 856 Farmall plowing. The field demonstration was stopped and IH's field engineer went over to the Farmall unbolted the exhaust pipe, took a hammer and chisel and knocked the baffle out of the muffler and then the 856 could keep up.
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Posted By: Eric[IL]
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2011 at 12:21pm
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I am a tractor fan of any brand. I have lost equal amounts of hearing to both of these models - JD4020 or AC190XTIII. They both are good tractors with each having their pros & cons. Since the 190 is getting great reviews already, I will put in my good opinions for the JD4020. 1. The 4020 is and acts like a smaller handling machine than the 190. Like the AC180 or 185, the 4020 is a great 90hp chore tractor around cramped livestock conditions.2. The 404 engine was naturally aspirated, so its higher cubes helped give it the necessary torque for 18-20' tillage implements. From 1964-1972, it was in its infancy. The 4020 was never turboed from the factory. Only bigger models 4320, 4520, 4620, 4430, 4630 404 versions during the 70s received the intercooling/turbo it deserved.
3. The JD synchro-shift 8 speed transmission had 4 ranges with a high/low gear built into each range. 1-3-3r, 2-5-5r, 4-7-7r, 6-8. As noted by someone earlier in this thread, clutch shifting within a range was very comfortable using the floor mounted footspeed. Although, not as handy as a power director on a 190, at the age of 8 years old, I could easily shift the synchro-trans with little difficulty.
4. Its hydraulic wet brake assemblies worked great - any kid could stop a 4020 without having to stand on its brake pedals.
5. For a smaller person or kid, hooking up to 3pt or especially the drawbar, the JD4020 did not have the huge 190 fuel tank obscuring the necessary safe vision for hookups. The 190 was not alone in this as the 930/1030 Case tractors had the same issue.
6. My Dads 2 JD4020s were serviced regularly. They were untouched factory fuel pumps, so never turned up on fuel. Both tractors are still in operation. One of them was overhauled twice during its entire life of over 15,000hrs with my Dad. Somewhere around 6000-7500 hrs per overhaul was common. We never did brakes or transmissions on any of them. The outer rear bearings would require changing if loaded with fluid, weights, & duals for decades.
In 1969, my Dad bought the low houred 65'4020 with a JD 5-16 plow for $5600. Our local JD dealer out ranked the local AC dealer for parts, service, & trades.
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Posted By: Dutchboy Johan
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2011 at 5:27am
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Very interesting stuff to read about the 190XT.
But I never thought a 190XT could compare a Ford 8000. I thought the 8000 was a size to big for the XT.
But I've also another question. Can a 190XT pull out a Case1030?? I know here a guy having a Case 1030 Comfort King, but that 1030 is sure a beast in pulling. That 451 engine won't stop when it's under load. It's not been turned up. ------------- ---> Better by Design <--- Johan Straver, Almkerk/ Netherlands Allis-Chalmers 190XT Ser.III #26829XTD |
Posted By: Larry(OH)
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2011 at 6:12am
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I'm with Eldon, I tink AC missed it putting little tires on all their tractors. ------------- '40 WC puller,'50 WD puller,'50 M puller '65 770 Ollie *ALLIS EXPRESS contact* I can explain it to you, BUT I cannot understand it for you!! |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2011 at 6:35am
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18.4x38 was an option on the 190 just like it was an option on a 4020. To me a 190 always rides better than a 4020 and I didn't see any traction difference between the two. A D17 with 16.9x28 puts more rubber on the ground than a 560 IH with 15.5x38. ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: JayIN
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2011 at 7:06am
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I farmed with both 4020D and 190XTD III at the same time. I liked them both. I paid $8000 for the JD used and $3450 for the AC. Both about the same hours and same condition. I miss them both! ------------- sometimes I walk out to my shop and look around and think "Who's the idiot that owns this place?" |
Posted By: MikeB (SD)
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2011 at 10:06am
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One thing that has not been pointed out is the problems with the early XT's both in the transmissions and rear ends. This caused a huge scare in buyers and Allis lost alot of marketshare. I've had two former dealers here in the Dakota's tell me than the XT's were the model that shot AC down. The pent up demand for this size of tractor as evidenced by the 4020 sales numbers combined with the trans and rear end problems almost paralized potential customers as the Farmall 560's problems were still fresh in their minds. Allis fixed all of these problems and by the time the Series III rolled around had a great tractor but it was a little late as the farm tractor market trailed downward after 1966.
Johan the Ford 8000 was released in 1968 exactly the same time as a SeriesIII XT190 and yes while the 8000 is physically larger then the XT190 the power is the exactly
the same. Remember the Ford 8000's and Farmall 856's did not have turbo's, in fact only the XT had a turbo in this important class of tractors.
I remember dad's Series III made 103hp on the dyno after a fresh overhaul and the rings were not even set yet and that was with a very conservative pump setting as I mentioned above in the fuel usage in a 10 hour plowing day. About 4.8 gallons per hour under a 85 to 90 percent load. Compare that to the Deere's 7.2 gallons per hour with it's pump turned up a little to make almost 100 horses.
Would it out pull a Case 1030? Yes and no infact a lot of Case guys will tell you their 930 would pull as good as a 1030 would. Most Case and Moline guys would ballast their tractors heavy and pull an extra bottom. The XT always worked better to plow fast often 2 HI (4th) or 3rd (Lo) (5th) gear and this was highly recommended by the dealers
to increase power train life. The 1030 Case's powertrain was equally weak to and they had a terrible reputation here in the upper midwest. Potential power the Allis would eat the Case for lunch I have seen 190's take as much as 40lbs of boost vs the Lavonia headed Case that doesn't respond well to turbo charging.
Jay that's almost to the penny what my dad paid for his 4020 and XT190 Series III.
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Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2011 at 10:25am
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Differential lock was a common option with the 4020 Synchro Range transmission too. And really necessary doing field work. Steering doesn't tilt, but the seat suspension is adjustable for height and position front to rear. When I was shopping for a taller tractor about 11 years ago I found one AC for every two dozen 4020 available in central Iowa. And the one AC dealer with two or three AC thought they were made of the same gold he asks for parts. Gerald J. |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2011 at 2:30pm
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The 190 seat adjusts for height and position front to rear and I think for weight too. My D17 adjusts for weight but can't remember if the 190 does. I'll have to look but I'm sure it does. I wouldn't say the diff lock was necessary for field work. Dad farmed all his life without diff lock but it is nice to have. Parts on AC have gotten real high but back in their hay day Allis parts were much cheaper than Deere or IH. Dad needed a wheel brg kit for his WD once and the AC dealer was out so he went across the road to the IH dealer and paid twice as much for it. Same wheel bearings as on an F20 or H 0r M can't remember which.
How did I spell wheel ------------whell? Fixed now. ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: Jordan(OH)
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2011 at 4:09pm
8000 is rated at 105, XT at 93. Ford is much larger and heavier, doesn't have tranny or rear end issues, will start in the teens on one battery without ether or being plugged in and I would also say it will lug more and burn less fuel. |
MikeB (SD) wrote:Posted By: Brian Jasper co. Ia
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2011 at 4:29pm
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I've never driven either one, but I thought the big deal on a 4020 was it was available with a power shift trans. They aren't really "all that"? ------------- "Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford |
Posted By: Smokey Joe
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2011 at 6:52pm
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You can always tell when reading posts what kind of tractor is in your shed, I'm 100% AC but i worked at deere for 5 years they have a very weak top shaft in the transmission from 4020-4455 all same top shaft if you ballast heavy with loader they gave trouble so i would say they both had transmission issues that required up keep neither one are junk will a 190-200 twist the dyno more than a 4020 HELL YEAH love the fuel tank behind me don't want fuel on my shiny hood. Will a John Deere sell for more than its worth YES!!! Poor AC- the people who have never driven, ridden , or owned one are the one's who critisize them the worse oh yeah and the ones who get outpulled by them ragged orange tractors have bad opinions too!!! ------------- 210,220,7010 AC,7020 AC,7040 AC,7045 Pedal Tractor, 8050& 8070 and Parts and Pieces of Many More!!! |
Posted By: Don(MO)
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2011 at 8:17pm
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Dad had a 1972 4020, he payed $10500. for it new and traded it off in 1978 and got $10500. for it. That green paint don't fade. lol The funnies part of it was we had a farmer down the road from us that had a 190 III and Dad said to stay out of the same field the 190 was in he didn't like the farmer giving him a hard time about the 4020 not staying with his 190 III and needing refilled all the time. I did like running both tractors.
Don ------------- 3 WD45's with power steering,G,D15 fork lift,D19, W-Speed Patrol, "A" Gleaner with a 330 corn head,"66" combine,roto-baler, and lots of Snap Coupler implements to make them work for their keep. |
Posted By: REEDE
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2011 at 9:00pm
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The 190xt was and still is a very good tractor in my book. You will get alot of tractor for the buck. I am color blind when it comes to tractors ,orange. |
Posted By: AC WD45
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2011 at 9:15pm
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In my opinon, the 4020 was the best (and still is) 100hp tractor avalible. That and the IH 10 and 1466. They had just the right gearing for their power, not to fast, not too slow. I hated the 4620, dang thing was either under powerd or would spin out ------------- German Shepherd dad 1957 Allis Chalmers WD45 #WD234847 1951 Allis Chalmers WD #WD88193 |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2011 at 9:38pm
------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2011 at 9:55pm
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I found disking plowed ground with my 4020 that it without using the differential lock it would get to rolling side to side a sideways power hop. One day that broke off the upright muffler. Wasn't a problem with the differential locked. It was handy to lock the differential while plowing, planting, and cultivating. It ran straighter with the differential locked while the power steering tended to wander. My last planting I did with my MF-135 that has steering by drag link because its more precise (and a whole lot more fuel efficient). Gerald J. |
Posted By: AC WD45
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2011 at 10:09pm
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spend 15 years of your childhood in a 1066, and 5 years of that time driving one and you learn to love it . The 4020, I'll stand firm on what I said though. It did love it's uel, but it would pull a 7 shank at 6" and not even know it was there in the black dirt here in MI. That A/C in the cab beats the heck out of the year around on my neighbors 185 any day lol ------------- German Shepherd dad 1957 Allis Chalmers WD45 #WD234847 1951 Allis Chalmers WD #WD88193 |
Posted By: MikeB (SD)
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2011 at 11:38pm
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Some great points being made. Ps I love the Ford 8000 the 16 speed dual power had the Allis guys over a barrel in 1969 but I still won't back down power wise if AC would have taken the Series III or 200 back to Nebraska in those days it would have made 103-106 horsepower. Ask you local dealers serviceman if they ever seen one dyno less than a 100 horse when new.
Back to 4020 vs Xt190, Ac always bragged about the huge platform and it was nice but the 4020 was easier to exit or climb on to from the left and right side of the tractor, in fact the factory cabbed One-Ninety's you only got on and off from the left side. Ironically John Deere found it unimportant also when they released the Soundgard cabs
on the Generation II tractors.
I can't believe no one has mentioned the John Deere propriatery hydraulic couplers instead of the industry standard Pioneer/ISO couplers A-C, Case, Oliver, etc used.
And of course every Deere dealer had the conversion kit laying their on the counter for you. "That will be $150 plus tax thank you" LOL! Here's your sausage! Deere was not alone in this as IH pulled this stunt also.
Both our 4020 and XT190 were ether eaters. We bought those cans by the cases. My IH friends always poke fun of how hard the 404 JD's were to start, in our case the XT was even worse.
How about the reverse speed the One-Ninety had two choices slow and slower, always prefered the 4020 when stacking round bales they actually had a hidden (not marked) high speed reverse gear. The flip side of this is the big 3-point mounted snow blowers the 4020 would snuff out or you would start smelling clutch cleaning out after a three day Dakota blizzard where as the XT would walk right through the drifts and you could always neutral the power director for the four foot and higher ones.
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Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2011 at 12:14am
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The 4010 had that third reverse gear and except for a lock out both could have had a reverse gear good for 15 to 16 mph in the fourth range. The third (and pretty fast) reverse in the 4020 was supposed to be locked out by the linkage and interlocks in the dash run by the single gear shift lever that actually shifted essentially two transmissions in one but two separate shifters with one handle. It was possible to modify the 4020 to have the third reverse, but it was somewhat troublesome in the 4010 breaking gears from not being quite strong enough. Gerald J. |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2011 at 6:22am
I do have a soft spot for those old Fords. Had one apart in mechanics school. I think it was a 7000 or 8000. Whatever is was it was built pretty decent and it had 4 pinion final drives. Everyone one else had 3. At the Allis dealer I worked at, there was a mechanic that I got to know real well that started there when the 200 was new and he said he never dynoed a 200 that was under 110 HP right from the factory except one that slipped by quality control during the mad rush for tractors. That 200 had a 185 pump installed and dynoed at less than 90 HP but it was quickly replaced before it left the dealership. If I remember right Case had a coupler all it's own too. The Deere couplers are a pain with those stupid popet valves and special tools needed to work on them. Our neighbor was all Deere and in the winter time for a couple year he would borrow Dad's Allis to haul manure cause his 4020 and 4430 wouldn't start in the winter. This was back in the 70's. They ended up buying a new 7040 PS for that task but his boys hated Allis and would just beat on that tractor. As a kid I used to ride with in the 7040 sometimes and it could be scary at times. They smashed the grill and radiator by the time they went broke and had to sell out but that tractor is still in the area and still going. ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: indiana2door
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2011 at 8:53am
| The 4020 is one of the most successful and popular tractors out there. I bleed red and a little orange but I would never give up my 4020. No one including AC has nothing to compare to a 4020! |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2011 at 9:08am
To each his own. ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: Butch(OH)
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2011 at 9:15am
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The fact that Deere outsold everybody else by a wide margin says a bit about the 4020. I have run them, and a 190 and a 856 and the 1855 Ollie and they all have their quirks. The posters who talked about Allis and thier gear problems have it about right IMO. We had a series 3 XT and by that time the problems had been solved,, but the reputaion was also set in stone for all but the diehard orange people.
We had a neighbor who could bleed green with the best of 'em and of course he owned a 4020 diesel. Same day the dealer unloaded our 190XT he came sliding in the driveway with his 4020 and yelled, DID THEY SEND YOU EXTRA TRANNY GEARS?!! LOL LOL. Later that spring we just finished up plowing and he was opening up his last field right across the fence so we did the neighboring thing and went over to help him finish up. I stopped at the end waiting on him and he stopped and said Ill go out front so you dont slow me down, LOL LOL. Well as anyone who had ever done same knows we crawled up his tail wheel for two rounds and he finaly let me by, both pulling 5-16 plows. When we were done he says, how many HP is that tractor? I thought it was the same as my 4020? I told him 92 HP, he said BS! I said look it up. Like all the other late ones ours was closer to 120 HP but he didnt know that. Next day I saw the dealer loading his 4020 on the rollback. He had called them to fix a low power problem, I never did have the heart to tell him differant.
Just posted this the other day but our series three when it was a few years old, and me before all my clothes shrank and Betsy gave me grey hair.
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Posted By: John (C-IL)
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2011 at 9:35am
| Hey Butch, looks like supper will be ready shortly. |
Posted By: Steve M C/IL
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2011 at 10:22am
| Not much has been said about the diff lock on the 4020's.Most around here had it.Much of Illinois north of RT 16 is black dirt and got fall plowed.Plowing wet black dirt practically required a diff lock and I believe that had a lot to do with Deere's popularity.Real hp and economy wasn't much consolation if you had to ride the brake and yank the lift.Chiseling wet timber soil with the 220 sucks too. The 8070 with cab and diff lock is much nicer to run. |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2011 at 10:42am
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Lots of 4020 diesel got turned up too, but I don't think they were normally delivered that way. M&W made a turbo kit that was fairly popular too. There were two different sets of hydraulics so different between the early and the late (side console) 4020 that they have separate parts catalogs and shop manuals. The later version moved the valve to out back right by the couplers and added the easily adjusted rabbit/turtle flow rate. Before that the valve was on the engine side of the fire wall and used poppet valves with the flow rate adjusted by a hidden set screw, typically set for 5 GPM. The late 4020 design was used for decades, at least by the external appearance. Early 4020 had a vane pump to extract fumes from the crankcase that later 4020 didn't. That pump has been known to die a screeching death. Gerald J. |
Posted By: Eric[IL]
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2011 at 10:52am
| Sounds like the series III had all the bugs worked out of it. You know - it is pretty amazing that AC got 120hp out of a 301 cubed engine. Did the series III 190xt have both the turbo & intercooler installed or was it just turboed? Over years of service, would that engine continue to perform without issues at that level? |
Posted By: Eldon (WA)
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2011 at 10:53am
I read that this 8' Northwest tiller would take all of 100hp to pull...last fall I was tilling up cornstalks and something didn't feel right. I looked back and blue smoke was coming off the belts. Tractor wasn't even lugging down....
 ------------- ALLIS EXPRESS! This year: |
Posted By: Eldon (WA)
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2011 at 10:57am
Just a turbo. What amazes me is people with the 4 cylinder version (200 cid) in the 6080 that are reporting 100+ hp! ------------- ALLIS EXPRESS! This year: |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2011 at 11:02am
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Unless a person spent the money on the turbo for a 4020, the 4020 is pretty limited on what kind of hp you could get out of it compared to a 190. That's why a lot of 190's died because of pushing 150 hp through a 100 hp power train. The 4020 then would have cooling problems when farmers added turbos so M&W offered a finned oil pan to try to help but they still were a problem. Probably why there weren't to many done that way except for pullers. I'd never run a 190 at over 115 or 120. I'd prefer no more than 110 hp. Even so the 301 engines seem to preform well at those high horse power rating. ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: ACscott
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2011 at 11:05am
| I think almost everyone will agree the 4020 was a good tractor but the one ninety is every bit as good. If you leave the one ninety at stock settings they are a very good tractor. |
Posted By: Butch(OH)
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2011 at 11:13am
Ours was one of the last XT Diesels, the model 200 was on the dealers lot. Ours was not intercooled, I dont believe any of them were. Even though ours was one of the last we had it at the farm only about long enough to get used to it being there and the dealer called to say they needed it at the shop for an upgrade to something. I knew the mechanic well enough that I called him and said while you have it there turn it up to 120 or so, he said they are all 115-120 but he would check it. Sure enough it came back with the pump still sealed and a note that it was right at 120 HP on the dyno. The 190 wasnt the only A-C out produce it's nameplate. A friends family had a 220 and when they thought they needed a new tractor they got a 7050 and were darned dissapointed that it wouldnt out work the old 220. Come to find out they had owned a 150 HP tractor all along and didnt know it, the 7050 was up to spec.
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Posted By: TexasAllis
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2011 at 11:53am
My dad ran a Allis dealership when I was a kid. One day I was in the shop and they had just put a new fuel pump on a 185 and had it hooked up to the Dyno. If memory serves it Dynoed around 96-97 HP. I knew the rated HP of a 185 so I asked him if it was supposed to do that. His answer was he never once Dynoed a well running Allis that did not run higher HP than the factory rating. |
Posted By: Eric[IL]
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2011 at 2:38pm
| Everyones engine comments are fascinating to learn. The AC cross flow engine heads must have been the correct configuration - Cool air on one side, hot air on the other side? ACs got an excellent engine design for their diesel tractor series. |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2011 at 3:11pm
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With a cross flow head, there's more room for bigger passages, both in and out. I suspect that's more benefit than cool on one side and hot on the other. Gerald J. |
Posted By: ORANGE JUICE
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2011 at 7:58pm
| I wouldn't care if I had 3 flat tires on a 190XT I would rather drive it than a 4020. But I have a serious Orange addiction that I probably need help with. It's all about loyalty for me. Diesel prices now might make greenies plow after dark so their buddies won't see them on a 190. |