wd 45 crank installed in wd block
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Category: Allis Chalmers
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URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24842
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Topic: wd 45 crank installed in wd block
Posted By: gold642
Subject: wd 45 crank installed in wd block
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2011 at 7:10pm
| I am sure this question has come up before but please forgive my lack of knowledge. Can I install a wd 45 crank in a wd block. I know the 45 crank has a 4.5 inch stoke instead of a 4 in stoke. I know the pistons will fit in both the wd and the wd 45. Will it fit? About what would the compression be if I use wd pistons? What other problems would I have to deal with? I want to used the tractor to rake , build fence and plow on plow days at locate antique tractor show. |
Replies:
Posted By: AaronH
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2011 at 8:00pm
| the crank will fit with no problems. Someone else will have to give us the CR with the WD pistons. |
Posted By: MACK
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2011 at 9:02pm
| It will be too heigh for what you want to use it for. Some where between 9 or 10 to one. Take the pistons out and cut some off the tops. MACK |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2011 at 7:21am
| I overhauled a WD a long time ago with the 4 inch crank and installed pistons/sleeves from a 175....compression was very much OK and always considered it to be the same as the original 4 inch bore flat top pistons, so with the 4 1/2 inch crank it would be 8.25 to 1 compression ratio.That being said, you probably cannot just stroke and old engine because there is a ring edge already established in each sleeve and you'll break piston rings or worse going up higher than that. |
Posted By: gold642
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2011 at 7:22am
| Mack, I now show .750 from deck to top of piston. I assume when I install the 45 crank . I will get about .500 piston to top of block. My manual shows 5.75 compression ration on wd engines. I am calculating about a 1/3 increase in compression or around 8.3 or 8.4. Am I calculating wrong. I have a lathe and can trim the top of the piston but how much before the piston will not be thick enough? Ted |
Posted By: gold642
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2011 at 7:29am
| I read that I need to groove the center on the block half, of the main bearings . This groove runs the length of the bearing not across the bearing. This is to allow the oil the pass to the crank and the rod bearings. I understand that this was one reason the rod bearings went out. I have also read that I need to use a 170 governor spring. Do I need to replace both the spring and the weights or just the spring? |
Posted By: gold642
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2011 at 7:46am
| Dr. The sleeves and pistons on the wd have very little wear. I intend to ball hone the sleeves. If i see any ridge then I will replace with new pistons and sleeves. What do you think of grooving the main bearings and 170 governor springs? Ted |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2011 at 8:16am
| I've never suggested grooving the main brgs on the "W" series engines. The "G" series engine main brgs are grooved for more continuous oiling of the rod brgs. I don't know how you'd cut a groove into a "W" brg and keep the brg material together??? I'd be too scared to try it I guess. I've never known rod brg failure to really be an issue unless some clown overhauled the engine and didn't replace the CAM BRGS !! A 170 gov spring will gain you about 100 rpm (1800 vs 1700) over a WD spring. |
Posted By: Coke-in-MN
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2011 at 9:19am
|
friend that use to race old Plymouth engines in stock cars cut a X groove in all his bearings, starting at oil hole and wideing out to lower shell then back to center in lower shell. Grooves met at center of lower bearing then back up to top half. so 2 small groofes down each shell to common point. Those little Ply 6 cyl flat heads would run away from the V8 fords on the track, and turn some wild RPM with no bearing problems. ------------- Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something. "Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful." |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2011 at 9:51am
|
I check the compression ratio at 9.2 with a flat top piston .500 below deck .042 compressed gasket with a 4.25 bore opening a 4. inch piston bore and 4.5 stroke. should run fine on medium grade fuel or fuel with a percentage of ethanol especially if you leave the cam straight up. If you don't want 9.2 cr don't mill the pistons just don't put the top compression ring on and use two compression rings like automotive. They are some power in less ring drag also. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: RichinWis
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2011 at 9:58am
| Does anyone on here have a picture of M&W pistons that they can post on here for a WD45? |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2011 at 10:02am
------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
RichinWis wrote:Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2011 at 10:43am
| According to my numbers, with a 4 inch bore and stroke and .560" deck clearance (including a .060" head gasket) the compression ratio would be 8.15 to 1 not taking into account valve stand out and figuring the head gasket has a 4 inch hole. Valve standout and spark plug pocket and larger than 4 inch HG hole kind of cancel each other out if the valves/seats have been reground much. (2 x 2 x 3.14 x 4 is 50.24 CID.....2x2x3.14 x .560" is 7.03 CID......50.24 + 7.03 = 57.27 divided by 7.03 = 8.1465 to 1 ratio.) |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2011 at 11:02am
|
Well if your math is right by the time you had correct gasket figures and considered the degrees at which the intake valve closes abdc then it would fall into 7 to 7.5 range for effective compression. Should run on low octane from the pump. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: RichinWis
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2011 at 11:35am
| Well why do you waste your time with antique tractor technology then? All I wanted was a picture and you have to get all smart about it!! |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2011 at 12:08pm
|
I wasnt smart about it . The only reason I fool with antique tractors is the rules for pulling . My pistons are fairly modern 2009 ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: gold642
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2011 at 2:53pm
| OK, First thanks for all your input. I will not cut the bearings. I used a hone with 3 stones medium grit instead of the ball hone. The sleeves cleaned right up. I see no marks and feel no ridge. I removed the cam and lifter and they look fine. The lifters are nice and flat and the cam lobes look full and all equal in height. My 45 crank is standard so I will use standard bearings. I was panicked because the 3 mains where not the same size but then I got the book and seen they are not suppose to be. I will reuse the pistons with new rings. I need to order new cam bearings. any concern with the oil pump. The engine was carrying 20 lb when hot before and oil looked good. I sent the head for the shop . He is to grind/replace the valves and guilds as needed. My clutch is a 6 spring clutch. Everything looks great but I intend to replace the disc as it has some wear but is way above the rivets. The hand clutch looks good and operates with a nice snap. Anything else I need to be concerned about? Ted |
Posted By: MACK
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2011 at 10:21pm
| If the pistin is .750 from top plus a .042 head gasket, the .500 longer stroke would put the piston .542 from head. A 4.500 stroke would put the piston5.042 from head at bottom. 5.042 Divided by .542=9.302-1 MACK |
Posted By: MACK
Date Posted: 30 Jan 2011 at 8:10am
| Gold642, I sent you a email, but it wouldn't go through. After using the .060 thick head gasket I come up with 9.03-1. MACK |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 30 Jan 2011 at 8:24am
| Which is exactly what I now come up with when I plug in a 4 1/2 " stroke instead of 4 inch stroke....my big mistake. I still would use it at 9 to 1 and fuel it with 89 octance gas and be sure to back the timing off to around 20 to 22 degrees BTDC instead of 30 degrees like it was originally. |
Posted By: gold642
Date Posted: 30 Jan 2011 at 10:05am
| I will look to use a .060 gasket and set the timing at 20 degrees before TDC. Thanks Ted |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 30 Jan 2011 at 2:15pm
|
You going to use a custom gasket ? Victor renz or felpro blues gasket compressed is .042 . On the timing don't limit yourself by a fixed number of 20 degrees. Degree of timing is a factor of three things compression, octane of fuel and spark plug heat range. When you decide those three factors then put the timing that it runs the best in it and if your not hearing impaired it makes itself audio apparent. dont trust the flywheel and bellhousing pointer as top dead center either when using a different crank. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: alliswd
Date Posted: 30 Jan 2011 at 7:05pm
| This exactly what I did to my WD. Works great. I run premium in it just to be sure. I had the cam ground to match. I also installed a 170 gov spring, but it now peaks out at about 2100 RPM. 58 horse on the PTO. Was not looking for anything nuts - I like raking hay with the tractor too! Pulls best in 4700# and 5200#, sucks in 4200#. |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 30 Jan 2011 at 7:17pm
|
Alliswd ,I am glad you posted . A 175 at pto rpm was 54 hp with a 8.2 compression ratio . So with your post a 1 point static compression ratio change with everything else being equal is worth 4hp. Fair assessment would you say? ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: MACK
Date Posted: 30 Jan 2011 at 9:10pm
| For what you plan to use it for, I would cut the pistons. It will have to have 12v to start good and with that comp. and 12v it leave you on the back 40 with a broken starter drive. No need for that comp. for a chore tractor. MACK |
Posted By: gold642
Date Posted: 31 Jan 2011 at 5:47pm
| Mack, How much would you remove from the piston tops? Also where do I find the serial number on the tractor . I assume it is different then the number on the engine. Also will an early 9 spring d 17 clutch fit the wd and the wd 45. Thanks Ted |
Posted By: MACK
Date Posted: 31 Jan 2011 at 10:22pm
|
I would cut .120 off the top. that will be 7.61-1. .100 off the top will be 7.81-1
The serial # is above the lift arm shaft and behind the left brake cover unless it is a old one, then it will be at the side of left brake cover. MACK
|
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 01 Feb 2011 at 8:25am
|
Hello Mack, I do not know the piston that he is cutting that much material off of and it may be thick enough. Maybe Kendak will post the pictures of the busted/ cracked pistons that he removed about the same amount of material from . ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: kendak
Date Posted: 01 Feb 2011 at 8:53pm
| don't take anything off the top of the piston or you'll make it to thin...BTDT.....leave the pistons alone & run reg. pump gas...will work fine ..the Victor & Fel-Pro gasket both have a crush thickness of .042....Kent |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 02 Feb 2011 at 7:07am
|
I am going to post kents picture of pistons cracked tonight. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 02 Feb 2011 at 4:44pm
heres what happens when you mill to thin.
  I know you guys were waiting anticipating ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: gold642
Date Posted: 02 Feb 2011 at 5:29pm
| Call me a chicken I think I'll take my chances with 9.3 compression and leave the pistons alone. I will run high test and adjust the timing accordingly. Thanks to everyone for their input. I don't think I explained that I am doing two tractors. They are both wd45's but one had a wd engine in it. One has wide front and power steering (1955). I ordered the 8.2 compression pistons for the wide front wd 45 engine. I am locating 9 spring pressure clutches for each tractor. I had the radiators recored and the gas tanks lined . I sent the heads to the shop for valves guilds and seats. I have a spare wc and wd for parts. I still need to find snap couplers for the lift arms. The tires and rims on the wide front wd 45 are in great condition and calcuim filled. The tricycle (1954) has bad rims that I intend to replace and then fill them. The tires are excellent shape. I have 6 Allis plows . 3 -2 bottoms mounted , 2 - 3bottom mounted, and a 3 bottom drag plow. I have been pulling plows out of the snow every where on our farms. As Dr Aliis might remember I am going to try to out plow a Moline Ub special pulling a 2 bottom drag plow. The narrow front with the wd engine will pull a two bottom. The wide front will pull a 3 bottom. I will raise the left side of the tractor 6 inch and adjust the plow flat to the concrete floor. I intend to hang 2 weights on the left rear wheel of the wide front tractor.I would do both tractors but I only have two wheel weights. I will bolt a chain both to each front end. I figure about a 100 lb of chain up front should work well. I have a lot of chain, Don't ask. I will wire brush the boards and plow ahead of time to insure everything is operating and shined up as it should. If I can figure out how to load pictures I will try to post some. Thanks Ted |
Posted By: Lester
Date Posted: 02 Feb 2011 at 5:35pm
| My brother uses 4.125 WD pistons in his 4.5 45 crank and has never had any problems ,although he uses 89 or more gasoline. |
Posted By: gold642
Date Posted: 02 Feb 2011 at 5:35pm
| Sorry It should say chain box not both. I am using a steel box to hold the chain. The wd and wc are shares but ran a couple years ago when parked. I was going to sell one and cannibalize the other for parts. Which would be worth more? Ted |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 02 Feb 2011 at 6:02pm
|
I knew a little visual aid would bring you around . Even if I am Rodney Dangerfield and cant get any respect from just simply writing posts.lol ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: LouSWPA
Date Posted: 02 Feb 2011 at 6:12pm
|
nuttin a little JB Weld can't fix! ------------- I am still confident of this; I will see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord; be strong and take heart and wait for the Lord. Ps 27 |