Right to Repair
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=205642
Printed Date: 01 May 2025 at 9:21am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.10 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Right to Repair
Posted By: Ted J
Subject: Right to Repair
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2025 at 1:38am
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Ever heard of this before? I've been a member (getting emails) for over a year now and sending messages to our elected idiots about once a week. It WORKS! They have made some changes that benefit us. Give it a shot..... They are are really poking the bear (JD) right now. Let me know what you think of this article.
------------- "Allis-Express" 19?? WC / 1941 C / 1952 CA / 1956 WD45 / 1957 WD45 / 1958 D-17 |
Replies:
Posted By: Gary Burnett
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2025 at 7:10am
| What farmer could actually afford the necessary equipment to do on farm repairs? Even factory trained repair techs have problems with repairs these days.I see this as only helping the giant mega farmers with deep pockets.At any rate doesn't affect me since I'm running 20th Century tractors. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2025 at 7:28am
| The issue isn't just tractors. It is combines, self-propelled sprayers and forage choppers and windrowers and skid loaders and excavators and on and on. Anything with a COMPUTER onboard. Deere Tech's must use THEIR laptop and computer program to make the repairs complete. |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2025 at 8:16am
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In the AUTOMOTIVE industry, you can buy a $50. SCANNER that can give CODES and narrow down many of the problems for Home Repairs.. I have used one of them for 20 years... No reason that tractors should be any different.. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2025 at 8:17am
| All the diesel engine manufacturers hold their data lines as Corporate Secrets, "Proprietary", requires license to utilize or to gain update maps, that becomes exceedingly expensive where courts are not backing them on this. RTR is coming and the manufacturers are figuring that will cut into bottom lines. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2025 at 8:19am
| That's not the whole problem. The John Deere laptop/program calibrates transmissions, hydraulic pumps and valves, etc,etc. It is more than just a diagnosis of a problem. It is the actual complete repair of the electronic controller. Caterpillar is really no different. |
Posted By: HudCo
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2025 at 8:34am
| if all i need is a fifty dollar scanner then why do i have to have a five thousand dollar scanner to do my job in the shop ? but this right to repair bill i think is a big deal , ihave to have a way to stay up to date with with the john deere equipment and the cnh 1086 internationals and 4020 john deeres are all most extinct on farms now. i have been looking in to spending the 7000 $ for the texa software for deere and cnh for our shop latop . i still have to make a living for a lot more years |
Posted By: Mikez
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2025 at 8:40am
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I see both sides of the argument. I’m thinking the argument against you being able to fix your own is simply liability.
Just picture Joe Shmoe in the computer fng up settings then the tractor runs over little Suesy from next door. Awhile ago someone sent me a video on right to farm law. And it was kinda scary. It was saying if you dig deep enough into ownership of software that you technically down own any of it. Automotive, iPhone,iPad, earbuds. Can’t remember the other lingo. Wish I could find it again. |
Posted By: Les Kerf
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2025 at 9:33am
This is correct. My last job before retiring was in the engineering department at Encoder Products Co. One of my duties was installing software/operating systems, etc. You must click on the "Accept Terms of Agreement" which is supposed to mean you have read and agree to the EULA (End Users License Agreement) in order to continue. No one actually reads this every time (I did once, it makes you go cross-eyed). This is partly why I use Puppy Linux for my personal computer needs. Sorry this doesn't help the modern farmers  |
Mikez wrote:Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2025 at 9:54am
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The $50. auto scanners are just that.. a SCANNER.. Will tell you if you have a miss fire, what cylinder, vacuum leak, temp probe problem, coil or injectors no working, O2 out of range, etc... You can NOT change the shift points, rpm set, fuel injection, etc.. This is a BASIC SMALL PROBLEM analysis ..... No reason the Tractor guys could not do the same thing.... If you have a bigger problem then YOU can decide to go to the shop... Last time i was at a Car Dealer for repair was under warrenty in 1989.. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: tbran
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2025 at 10:49am
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The other side of this is Deere's ability to retain techs. Large farmers look at their bill from the local johnny Pop dealer and thinks "I have him out here 6 hours a week at $200/hour - why don't I just HIRE the tech - he can work on my new Deere stuff and the other time he can help me farm - change oil - fix other stuff. That cuts out the dealer. I went to a service school last year and that was the hot topic - tech retention of Deere. They are losing them in droves. Not so much so CIH and Agco. ------------- When told "it's not the money,it's the principle", remember, it's always the money.. |
Posted By: Mikez
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2025 at 11:02am
| Good point tbran. I see that with cat and Cummins. My neighbor has trucking company. And that’s happened a lot over the years. Guys get trained by cat, Cummins then moonlight at the smaller trucking companies. |
Posted By: HudCo
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2025 at 2:23pm
| then why dont we just get rid of the obd2 system for the automotive industry and leave it all up to the dealers ? |
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2025 at 3:16pm
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OBD-II was supposed to make it easy for EVERYONE to get vehicles repaired, by having a common connector and error messages but like everything else it got 'complicated'. There's 3-4 or more OBD-II 'hardware' systems and of course 'extended' diagnostic messages as more 'computer stuff has been added over the decades.... My 'problem' is that owners of the vehicles SHOULD be able to either use a scanner or the 'intellidisplay' computer to SEE which 'sensor' has crapped out ! A generic 'fault' does no body any good yet it is dead SIMPLE to have the screen say 'injector #4 defective', or O2 sensor #2 bad'. ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2025 at 4:09pm
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ODB does not say " #2 injector is bad and needs to be changed out".... but it DOES SAY " missfire on #2 cylinder" ...... that leads you in the right directions ... could it be the injector? yes... could it be a bad COIL ? .... yes... not EXACT , but it does lead you in the right direction for repairs.. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: BigGuy1000
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2025 at 4:15pm
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I would estimate that in all of Illinois, less than 100 farmers would benefit by this access to repair data, because: 1. Even with access to repair data and parts, I see that the farmer at the farm still must have the training and access to the company network to properly diagnose and fix a problem. Sooo, how would the average farmer be able to get the needed training and company network access??? 2. In all of Illinois, I would guess that, judging by the very few farmers at that level of income, very few (less than 100?)would have the need for this kind of repair help! PS. Certainly not me!! Dairy, <100K income!! |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2025 at 4:24pm
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Harvey... what is needed is a very BASIC system for the Home Use... You would not have access to the engine governor speed, fuel injection point , trans shift points, etc.. What it would do for you is the engine is running cold and burning excess fuel and you dont know why... the temp gauge on the dash reads 180 degrees ???? So you plug in the $50. scanner and it says the "TEMP PROBE" sending the signal to the computer is BAD and reading 35 degrees when the engine is warm... So you go to the dealer or ON LINE and order the $30. TEMP SENSOR and install yourself.... Very bASIC maintenance, not needing a dealer mechanic. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: Sherman Farms
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2025 at 4:51pm
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I can call my dealer with the error code and they will tell me what's wrong and if I can fix it myself. ------------- B, C, RC, 3 wc,2 wd,3 wd45, d15, d17, d19, d21, 190, 440, 7040, 918 backhoe, 12 roto balers, 7 60 combines, 40, 66,2 72,90 super, sp100, Gleaner E, F3, 3 L2, R62, and much more |
Posted By: Acguywill
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2025 at 5:02pm
| Or simpler yet why can't the diagnostic system tell us that without having to hook up a scanner? It would save everyone time and money and frustration. Yes I understand that most new stuff can be monitored remotely by A, B, OR C, but it is still not good enough for the operator to understand. A code shows up with a brief description that I have no idea what it means so I still have to hassle the dealer because I can't comprehend a 5 word phrase used to describe a 2 page issue. |
Posted By: Sids
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2025 at 5:03pm
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So here is an example I do not understand. Let's just say you are going along with your tractor, truck or car. So all at once a warning comes on and the engine goes into limp mode. So you get it to repair shop or dealer,they hook up scanner and bingo here is your problem it is this whatever. My comment is they should make the computer in the vehicle display the whatever on the display so you can fix it. Don't hook it to a scanner, the vehicle system already knows what is wrong. We had a truck in the shop we worked on, was in limp mode, problem was Def pump. Repaired Def system, still in limp mode ??? Finally called dealer for help. Had to have truck towed 80 miles so they could clear code which we could have done but they would not give us info to do so. What a waste of. Time and money. |
Posted By: tbran
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2025 at 5:11pm
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As a dealer, I agree - customers BOUGHT the tractor - they should be able to do with it as they see - If they want to buy a service manual they can - should be able to buy the electronic portion as well . IF they screw it up - it is their fault - if they fix it - it is their gain. Deere argues they have 'proprietary' (secret) info they do not want accessed - BS. It is the money. ------------- When told "it's not the money,it's the principle", remember, it's always the money.. |
Posted By: Acguywill
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2025 at 5:27pm
| Not sure any amount of money will fix the lack of techs. The simplest and quickest and cheapest solution would be to automate diagnostic services. If jd is worried about loosing money on the deal make it subscription based. I would gladly spend a couple hundred bucks a year if it saved a day or two of waiting for a tech to come out because he is busy with someone else's problems. It seems like a win win. |
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2025 at 5:39pm
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using Steve's example, it is EASY for the 'computer' to KNOW whether the injector or the coil is bad, it should also display the injector serial number, as some ( Kubota) ECU's require this to properly 'recalibrate'. Having to go to dealer to have their tech use his computer to reset the ECU is just a HUGE money grab.... Another pet peeve of mine is the dealer will replace several items AND charge you for all, even though the LAST one WAS the defective part. There's no reason that every sensor doesn't have a unique ID . I've got 128 temperature sensors on ONE wire and can easily find out which one is defective or where the wire is open or shorted. It's not 'rocket science' just good old programming. ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: HudCo
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2025 at 6:28pm
| their are lot off independant shops that are willing to provide top notch service and have had decades long customers, and they dont want to loose them because they can not provide the service required now a days these guys dont purchase thousands of dollars worth of tools equipment and pay overhead every year for their health |
Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2025 at 7:00pm
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If "right to repair" does happen, it won't affect anyone but big shops. Big shops will be the only ones that will be able to afford the computer files. I had a guy that used to work on my vehicles after their warranties expired. Every year he had to buy updated computer files for the latest vehicles at a cost of several thousands of dollars. As he got older, he wanted to cut back to less time, but he couldn't do repairs without the new files (some were updates on older vehicles). He ended up closing completely because the updates were so expensive. I expect it will be the same with the software for the farm equipment or commercial trucks.
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Posted By: jvin248
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2025 at 7:29pm
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. Right to repair is a huge deal. Don't buy equipment from manufacturers who don't subscribe to it. Deere and Apple are the two biggest offenders out there. Can you afford disposable equipment? That's what they want. Many farmers have broken down combining and can't get a service tech out because all the other farmers in the area are down too. You gotta get the corn in. Or you have hay cut and rain is approaching. Bad deal for the farmer, they don't think about that corn or hay pays the monthly loan or buys the next machine. They got you stuck and you'll pay big money for a repair, when they get to you. Pretty darn abusive. One car company includes QR barcodes on parts you can take a picture and it opens up a YouTube video to diagnose and remove that part, options to order replacement parts. Parts are low cost, not marked up/doubled six times as "a profit center". The faster and cheaper you are back on the road the more of a lifetime fan you will be. The Dealers are Deere's customers, not you. Your money should go to brands that support you keeping your costs low so you can buy more products. They chop you up for a short game, not the long game partnership. Choose wisely. .
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Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2025 at 7:53pm
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If "right to repair" does happen, it won't affect anyone but big shops. Big shops will be the only ones that will be able to afford the computer files. That is not how it works.. We are talking about BASIC MAINTENANCE... You can get a $50. scanner that is capable of reading 1000 DIFFERENT CODES from your car / truck and give you a BASIC idea of what is wrong... If its a vacuum leak, fuel injector, sensor problem, that is BASIC and you can do that yourself with the $50. scanner... If your transmission will not shift or engine has a BIG PROBLEM, then you might need the DEALER SOFTWARE to get DETAILED problem solving.. again, i have had several trucks and cars and used these readers hundreds of times.. I have not been to a DEALER to use their "SOFTWARE" in over 30 years.  ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2025 at 8:01pm
I am well acquainted with how an OBD scanner works on a car or truck. I am also aware that when I take my truck back for warranty work, the laptop they use to diagnose problems works. They can "update" (reflash) the computer to change settings that the manufacturer has made per their TSB updates. DrAllis was talking about a program that would allow you to set all different kind of parameters on hydraulics, etc. You will never be able to do that with a $50 scanner.
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Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2025 at 8:11pm
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RIGHT... that is EXACTLY what i said... This is for BASIC SMALL MECHANICAL problems like injectors, sensor, vacuum leaks... things you can do YOURSELF.... Not "Reprograming" the software.... if your vehicle runs poorly or has a light on, the SCANNER will give you an idea of what to look at.. I dont see "reprogramming" as a daily problem. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: 55allis
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2025 at 11:27pm
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My dad has a 1993 Volvo semi truck (farm use) that just recently went into limp mode and it wasn’t showing any codes, even had mechanic come and plug it in to a laptop and still nothing, so we was searching for bad wiring and cleaning connections (they all was pretty clean anyway) and noticed a speed sensor on the transmission had oil around the wires, that was the problem. I have always tried to stay clear of computers because of that.. ------------- 1955 AC WD45 diesel with D262 repower, 1949 AC WD45 |
Posted By: Gary Burnett
Date Posted: 28 Feb 2025 at 7:01am
Well of course it's the money JD isn't a charity organization just like every other business.They are going to do things that bring them back the best return Dollar$ wise. |
Posted By: jvin248
Date Posted: 28 Feb 2025 at 9:40pm
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" of course it's the money JD isn't a charity organization just like every other business.They are going to do things that bring them back the best return Dollar$ wise." Lol. It's all short sighted. Companies make more profit from returning customers than "conquest" sales. Happy customers tell three friends, disgruntled customers tell sixteen friends to avoid the company. No amount of marketing can overcome recommendations by friends. .
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Posted By: darrel in ND
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2025 at 7:21am
| Simple solution, if there are terms in company's policy that you don't like, don't buy their products. Darrel |
Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2025 at 7:43am
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When you put it in perspective, it's probably not going to matter much, since the computer software will be so expensive, it will be cost prohibitive except for the biggest repair facilities. You may continue to be able to do routine stuff like changing fluids, belts or hoses. Anything that requires actual repairs, will have to be done with the computer program for the vehicle/engine they are working on. With cars and light trucks, there are so many units sold in the country, aftermarket companies can come up with software that they can use to develop a profitable program very similar to the manufacturers. I just don't think there is enough demand for a similar program for new farm equipment (tractors, combines, self-propelled choppers, haybines, sprayers, etc.). When I see how complex, detailed and the fact that the computer programs are constantly changing and updating for a new vehicle, I just don't see how anyone other than a huge repair facility will be able to keep up with the changes. It's easy to blame John Deere, Case-International or any of the other manufacturers, but the bottom line is all vehicles are controlled by computers and all repairs will require computer programs to keep up with problems.
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Posted By: Gary Burnett
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2025 at 8:07am
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Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2025 at 8:34am
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With cars and light trucks, there are so many units sold in the country, aftermarket companies can come up with software that they can use to develop a profitable program very similar to the manufacturers. I just don't think there is enough demand for a similar program for new farm equipment (tractors, combines, self-propelled choppers, haybines, sprayers, etc.). thats not how it works... The TRACTOR Companies are Intentionally LOCKING YOU OUT so you can not see the DATA.... Nobody wants to spend THOUSANDS for the Factory Computer.. If the Company would OPEN UP ACCESS,, you can do 50% of the repairs at home with a small scanner.. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: AC720Man
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2025 at 9:20pm
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This is whole reason I farm with vintage AC tractors and the fact I can’t afford the new stuff lol. Don’t want the aggravation my JD neighbor has. $400 just for a tech to plug in a laptop for 15 minutes to tell him what’s wrong with it. ------------- 1968 B-208, 1976 720 (2 of them)Danco brush hog, single bottom plow,52" snow thrower, belly mower,rear tine tiller, rear blade, front blade, 57"sickle bar,1983 917 hydro, 1968 7hp sno-bee, 1968 190XTD |
Posted By: ecosse23
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2025 at 3:35pm
Your point about disposable equipment is interesting, because Brooks Stevens (who designed the Allis-Chalmers Model B) actually coined the phrase "planned obsolescence". His idea was that if car designs changed every year, customers would decide their old car was obsolete, then trade it in and buy a new one. He was using styling to make cars disposable, whereas nowadays corporations are using technology to make almost everything disposable.
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Posted By: Chad S
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2025 at 7:02pm
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Ok guys, I have been a JD tech for 20 years. Anything ag related the codes can be seen through the corner post or armrest screen. The only things that cannot be calibrated through the corner post or armrest screen is injector calibration values and vgt calibration. About everything else can be viewed on the corner post and armrest screen. Configurable address and be changed through there also. But some address simply cannot be changed. Most address are just information.Anything from about 2006 tells what the code is. And no, Service Advisor does not just tell you what to fix by looking up the code. You need to have some diagnostic experience to figure out what’s wrong. I think Deere doesn’t want the actual machine software out there in anybody’s hands. I’m sure someone would try and tweak the software beyond what the machine is capable of. Pretty sure anyone can buy manuals and or Service Advisor if they want . ------------- 36 WC,41 WC,53 WD45,57 D14,65 D21,68 XT,72 XT,81 7045 |