DEF junk
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Other Topics
Forum Name: Shops, Barns, Varmints, and Trucks
Forum Description: anything you want to talk about except politics
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=204959
Printed Date: 06 Jul 2025 at 6:56am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.10 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: DEF junk
Posted By: DanWi
Subject: DEF junk
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2025 at 4:54pm
| Just read that Oklahoma is proposing a law to protect farms and businesses from undue burden caused by the new diesel engines. Just had 2 examples here today, we have had temps from 0 to 10 degrees out with -20 windchill. Friends fairly new Ford pickup, the cable that heats the hose for the fluid failed and had to be replaced. And talked to a guy from the coop in line delivering corn today. Monday night he said his freightliner went in regen mode and after running it quite awhile wouldn't make enough heat to finish a regen so they had to take it to the dealer. I wondered about that last week as the line at the ethanol was a 1 and a 1/2 hour wait, and you have to keep moving ahead. Do they let the trucks idle or shut them off? My old Freightliner just sits and idles at high idle. |
Replies:
Posted By: Coke-in-MN
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2025 at 5:10pm
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When I was hauling petroleum products - big sign at GATE on regen of tractor , must be outside of refinery property , NO REGEN on or near any area on property or their frontage road to gate . Was bad enough when company filled their bulk tank for tractors and it went below Zero and filters gelled - of over 150 tractors . I got back to yard after buying 40 gallons of #1 as my tanks were low enough . The full idea of a water based fluid and in a area of freezing temp is another government SCREW UP of some Desk Jockey who doesn't even know how to hold a steering wheel in a Class 8 truck without getting a nose bleed from the height to cab ------------- Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something. "Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful." |
Posted By: DanWi
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2025 at 6:01pm
| Diesel engine freedom act is the law proposed. I hope it makes its way to other or all states. |
Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2025 at 5:40am
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More states and industrial side suppliers getting on this train. Does so little while costs so much not just initially but constantly. A running joke as to how much it cleans up the air which is minimal at best. Engine companies showcase EPA “Estimations” of what level of exchange and conversion these garbage piles perform. Is on the engine company sites, 20-30% particulate reduction which means 20 is typical 30 is likely from a brand new distance driven road tractor in the 11 western states in the Summer. Produces water and Co2 from the CO in exhaust is a flatout lie, the water comes from the DEF not the engine exhaust. As well as with the auto systems even on Gas the US could be witnessing 35-55mpg gasoline cars instead of 22-35 and 8+ instead of 6+ on diesel powered road trucks. Saving Fuel should be priority one not burning more claiming polluting Less, that math does not compute. VW proved this point with their cheat as the machines passed Drive By emissions checks achieving 45mpg on diesel, was a insider that squealed as to the programming mods to attain mpg and still meet air quality that cost them a bundle. VW in EU achieve close to 50mpg on diesel, 40-45 on gas and 2/3 that here. Science can be fascinating as to finding idiot flaws. |
Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2025 at 5:54am
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May not be viable yet will throw these numbers down. My rebuild C15 Cat 15liter engine at 70mph at a minimal load achieved a phenomenal 8.7 mpg on cruise on a fresh not completely broken in rebuild. With a livht 13,800# load same travel path at same speeds attained 8.1mpg and I am logging these trips records. The same model can I drive at work has a dash indicated mpg value where is geared similarly and has a 15L cummins X15, cannot break 5.9 mpg out of it no matter the operation parameters. Exhaust after treatment cuts in INJECTS Fuel to add heat in the System to make it function, wastes high dollar fuel and DEF trying to eat what is NOT there so adds enough to have something to consume. |
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2025 at 12:00pm
yes, but science stands in the way of 'someone' making their 10% ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: Coke-in-MN
Date Posted: 22 Jan 2025 at 9:21pm
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Ah but don't forget the carbon capture pipeline that will transport CO2 from Ethanol plants to N Dak to pump it underground (no problems there known) . This all as Ethanol is good for the environment as it cuts down on petroleum use and raises corn prices . Years back CARB in Cal required diesel (converted to alcohol) compression engines in LA basin on trial run - cut down on Diesel Petroleum exhaust matter - but raises FORMOLDAHIDE levels in air to a point it was detrimental to health of animal and human nearby . ------------- Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something. "Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful." |
Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2025 at 4:08am
| Exactly my issue with the Automotive EPA types. Try to palm off can Destroy base elemental emissions materials, violates physics and chemical laws, develops and implements mechanisms with minimal testing ending up are worse for environment and more costly than just allowing a Minuscule Level of nothing to exist. Create far more problems than reduce |
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2025 at 10:42am
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Anyone NOT get their DEFride started in this 'cool' weather ?? ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: tadams(OH)
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2025 at 11:48am
| Untill they started putting diesel in cars and pickups diesel fuel was a byproduct and prices were cheap. I remember in the 70s paying a $.25 per gallon |
Posted By: Ray54
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2025 at 12:04pm
Yes
but what was the gas price? Maybe .30 to .35 cents/gal. |
tadams(OH) wrote:Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2025 at 3:10pm
| Fuel oil has always been a left over of making lubricants, same as Gas. Lubricating Base stocks, Paraffin based lubricant greases, heavy oils. Then solvents as gas, and finally the lightest oils and gases. |
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2025 at 9:38am
| I know around here diesel was always cheaper than gas until the 80's when they started using diesel engines in cars and pickups |
Posted By: Ray54
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2025 at 10:45am
Now that the diesel in cars is almost nil, I don't understand the as much as a dollar more for diesel than gas. I don't buy diesel in town, so I don't track the price fluctuations. But very common for diesel to be almost a dollar more than 87 octane gas. But at times on par with 92 octane gas.
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Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2025 at 11:55am
| Simple, MORE trucks on roads, idiots from Foreign countries driving here, no concern how much they use. Add to that nearly all the NE US is still on Fuel Oil Heat IE No 2 fuel oil or diesel. |
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2025 at 3:47pm
| No doubt! Talked to driver dumping fuel at Loves south of Indy. Said 8 tankers a day. That's just one T stop! Can't fathom the gallons in a day across the US. Gasoline is the by product of making enough diesel hence the price. |
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2025 at 3:55pm
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What boggle my mind is that semi truckers say 8 MPG is GOOD ! ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2025 at 4:49pm
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that is the falicy.... add the DEF and get 20% reduction in smog, but get 30% reduction in MPG.... WTF !! .............Better to go for HIGH EFFICIENCY and it will be CLEAN !! Same for cars.. You got 3.5 liter engines getting 20 MPG in a pickup truck !! Why add all the BULL CHIT !!.. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2025 at 6:29pm
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My 05 KW gets 8.1 to 8.7 documented even as is running light load. HOWEVER, the 15 L engines at work often will not make 6mpg empty. Aftertreatment systems pumps fuel into the exhaust to preheat the catalyst to get reaction. What a waste of effort time and fuel. VW was getting 45mpg Diesel and over 37 routinely on Gas until EPA had whistleblower note the programming alteration. After restored to US EPA regs the cars barely got 38D and 30G. Makes ZERO Sense to burn More fue and actually quote make less emissions, absolute BS. |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2025 at 6:34pm
GEES DAVE.... there a 10,000 guys at the EPA that are HIRED to make STUPID RULES !!! What do you want to do with them ?. .... Maybe put them in line with the DEI Supervisors ??.... I hear McDonalds needs more french fry cookers !!  ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2025 at 10:56pm
5-6 is normal....could do better (but not a lot) but I don't drive for fuel mileage.
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Posted By: ekjdm14
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2025 at 5:51am
Guess Scott Miler still don't have to feel bad about his 8 miles a gallon Never a truer song sang there "build a big engine, make it run on bullchit put it down the highway buddy it'll never quit"... Maybe that's the new job for those DEI and EPA dudes, stick 'em at truckstops and have them talk into the tank...
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Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2025 at 6:30am
EPA and DEI, Speaking BS into Tanks!!! Needed that laugh this morning!!
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Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2025 at 6:42am
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A little More Research. 33,800CF of Natural Gas to make ONE Ton of Urea, that is dispersed as primarily Fertilizer and as the additive base for DEF, NOT Including the Gas used to create the .57T of Ammonia used with Urea to produce DEF. 3(28%)to just under 4(32%) Lbs of Urea to One Gal of Water for DEF varied solutions. So a Ton of Urea only produces around 500 gallons of DEF, that has a Shelf Life of LESS THAN 6 mos. How Many THOUSANDS of Gallons of DEF are consumed Daily? And the Ammonia NOT absorbed in the Conversion Process is FREE RELEASED to Atmosphere, Damage From? remains Unidentified or even Investigated. https://patents.google.com/patent/CN102482100A/en" rel="nofollow - CN102482100A - Modularized system and method for urea production using stranded natural gas - Google Patents https://blog-crop-news.extension.umn.edu/2016/05/the-three-biggies-urea-anhydrous.html" rel="nofollow - The Three Biggies: Urea, Anhydrous Ammonia, and UAN https://www.dtnpf.com/agriculture/web/ag/crops/article/2016/03/21/nitrogen-math-simple-calculations" rel="nofollow - Nitrogen Math: Simple Calculations Give You the Right Rates
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Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2025 at 7:08am
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FIVE MPG !!!!! That is CRAZY, really, I never knew is was sooooo low. How the heck can truckers make a 'living wage' ? Now I'm wondering how long I could heat my house using the NATGAS used to make 1 jug of DEF..... ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2025 at 8:11am
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Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2025 at 8:14am
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it just seems that 'they' should be focusing on getting semis more MPG than cars as trucks haul 99.44% of all goods, everywhere. ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: DanWi
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2025 at 8:49am
| DMiller you are right the EPA comes up with the solution to a problem but doesn't consider the long term problems the solution created. It's going to end up being the same thing with wind and solar. This has been discussed before. |
Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2025 at 10:19am
| The members at EPA have but one consideration as to Emissions, REMOVE ICEngines. Agenda Based ONLY. Make them ever more expensive and harder to deal with and FORCE Change. |
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2025 at 11:50am
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kinda funny, 'remove ICEngines' Canada/Ontario is spending BILLIONS for li-ion battery plants YET, Ford USA has told Ford-oakville to re-re-tool the plant from battery powered mustangs for gas/diesel powered F250/350 pickups !!!! ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: 6wheeler
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2025 at 12:42pm
| IMO? Big oil is to blame for all of this. Think about it for a minute. Way back in the late 60's and early 70's (Before the phony oil shortage) Cars were getting pretty darn good mileage. We had a new 1972 Chevy Impala 4 dr 350cid 4bbl carb. On the freeway it would do 25 mpg. It just had a carb and a muffler on the exhaust/tailpipe. No converters for people to steal. No computer. And that boat got between 18/25 city/highway. My 1st Truck/tractor I bought was a 1974 IH 4070B with a 350 Detroit and a 13 spd. Driving it sensibly it would get between 4.5 and 6 mpg. The exhaust came right off the turbo and straight to the muffler. No computer/def rubbish. Now the 80's gotta get better economy. Emissions got to get cleaned up. So now Big tech gets involved. Big oil/ Big tech. working with the EPA happy happy. Of course, that is the beginning of the end. Emissions are supposedly better. But, at the cost of mpg. Well, now who would benefit from this? Any guesses? Now Big Tech. has to be more involved too. Big oil and Big tech. Hand in Hand stroll into the 90's and beyond. And, here we are. My current 2023 car probably wouldn't fit in the trunk of that Impala. And, gets 35 mpg. on the freeway. I just retired from trucking and the last truck I drove ? 2024 Peterbilt 579 w/paccar engine and all the emissions crap got right around 5.5mpg. I would have to have a $10,000 scanner to diagnose either one of them. Here we are 40 some odd years later? The cars and trucks get similar mileage to what they got back then. Big tech adds 3 to 4 times the price to those old cars. Big oil makes fuel 3 to4 times higher to back then. Luckily, We have the EPA and Environmentalists to blame it on |
Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2025 at 1:36pm
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I do not mind the Electronic Engine Controls as the C15 Cat, an advancement of the 3406E. Cummins played hell trying to make the N14 function, ended that program going to a single head engine and made that work just No Longevity or rebuild capability. I rebuilt old NT Series Cummins with 1mil miles and been overhauled at least twice, would hold up for another round of 250-400,000. Newest breed X15 Cummins are crap, 550-600,000 REQUIRE Overhaul, engine company presses Exchange "Crate Engines" that are just New engines, the blocks cannot take the punishment. Detroit managed to come out of the Dark Two Stroke era, built the DD 60 Series and 50 Series, good engines, techno nightmares. Lasted a LONG time but as failed, failed miserably. Wholey owned by Daimler today. Mack owned by Volvo so their engines are reflecting Volvo designs and again, Once Thru engines not worth rebuilding. Today a C15 Cat rebuilt to a Platinum Rebuild Spec is $38,000, a Cummins Crate engine is $32,000, similar for a DD13/15 AFTER Core proves has any worth, Cannot touch a Volvo rebuild for less than $40,000. Planned Obsolescence and EPA pressing magic buttons to make it happen, engine companies love it as pushes NEW machines and NO need to train rebuild techs.
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Posted By: Ed (Ont)
Date Posted: 26 Jan 2025 at 8:09am
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[QUOTE=jaybmiller] FIVE MPG !!!!! That is CRAZY, really, I never knew is was sooooo low. How the heck can truckers make a 'living wage' ? Now I'm wondering how long I could heat my house using the NATGAS used to make 1 jug of DEF... Jay I thought you knew everything so that myth is gone! LOL. My son drove for a big gravel business in Barrie. Straight truck - I think 05 KW. 15 litre Cummins, biggest hp and torque you could get. 600hp and 2000 ft/lbs torque. 18 sp, 3.90 rears. 4 axles - steer, then lift axle and tandem drives. 21 ft box.Won awards at several truck shows. He was proud of the unit and truck was always clean. He logged all miles and fuel everyday.I always did the fuel calculations every night. About 6.5 mpg (imperial) consistent. On many days he pulled a wagon behind that (3 axles and long tongue) so that brought the total weight to close to 150,000 lbs. Legal here. As soon as the wagon was behind the mileage dropped to 3.5 mpg.
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Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 26 Jan 2025 at 9:16am
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that's just NUTZ. the 3.5MPH not that I know everything ! lLooks like CN rail will be down ,again, so 75% of all freight will not be delivered... BTW the dumptruckers out of the quarry here get GREAT MPG, as they never stop at those big red octagons with S T O P on them, or the RED lights at the corner..... ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 26 Jan 2025 at 11:29am
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Avg US Consumer for heat and Hot Water with Cooking is around 170cf per day. Math is pretty simple. 200 Days with All the above in use in One Home, to make ONE ton Urea. divide by 572. Then multiply by roughly 8000 Per Day.
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Posted By: NEVER green
Date Posted: 26 Jan 2025 at 5:16pm
Diesel only went up higher then gas when they removed the sulfur. It is expensive to remove. ------------- 2-8050 1-7080 6080 D-19 modelE & A 7040 R50 |
Posted By: Ed (Ont)
Date Posted: 26 Jan 2025 at 5:16pm
| For a bit more info Jay. Straight truck hauling gravel anywhere from 200 to 300 litres of fuel everyday. I was in that business for 20 years. Add wagon and you are up to 500 litres a day. Ask the farmer guys what it takes to operate that big 12 row corn head all day at wide open throttle. I think about a 1000 litres. The guys here can correct me as many here know exactly. Do you think we can do that with batteries??? Lol. World will starve. |
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 26 Jan 2025 at 8:10pm
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I just can't understand why 'they' can't get the MPG better for 'big rigs' ? Maybe somehow 'tweak' the turbo or better injectors or ???? Maybe 'hydraulic' transmissions ? I understand they have a LOT of weight to haul, so is 8 MPG the best it can ever get ?? yeesh, say 250L per day @ $1.70 that's $425 per DAY !!! So 5 days, $2125 a week !!! Over $100K in a year !!! NOW I have some sympathy for the owner/operators.
------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: Gary
Date Posted: 26 Jan 2025 at 8:53pm
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My 2024 Silverado 2500HD with a 6.6 L Duramax Diesel, 10 speed Auto. averages about one container, 9 L, DEF per 1,000 miles towing a 15,000 lb. 5th wheel. The vehicle 'Driver Info. Centre' continuously logs 3 variants of Fuel Consumption. 1) The instantaneous Miles/Gal. - from 0 MPG going down a Grade to 3 or 4 MPG going up a Grade. 2) The average MPG for the last 50 miles of driving 3) The best recorded MPG of #2 above over 50 miles. My Best Recorded MPG is 27.8 Miles per US Gal. My average MPG towing the 5th Wheel Trailer ran between 8 to 10 MPG G A Full Time RV'r next to me is towing a 2024 Mobile Suites 5th Wheel TriAxle that weighs in at 24,000 lb. and is 46 ft long. MSRP is US$225,000 His Tow Vehicle is a 2022 GMC 3500HD Dually, but same Engine and Trans as mine. I asked him how well his Truck performed, and he replied 'Fine, no problem' |
Posted By: DiyDave
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2025 at 4:17am
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Not fair, gareee, we know you are spiking your DEF with RVAF... ------------- Source: Babylon Bee. Sponsored by BRAWNDO, its got what you need! |
Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2025 at 4:53am
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Best AVERAGED MPG 8-10, that over excited 20 whatever is Zero throttle in a Decel state running downhill and is not a credible example. As to that value of DEF per 1000mils yeah that is typical, as most US HD Trucks average around 4gal to 1300miles. As to value your home(IF Set up on NG) uses the equivalent of that Four Gallons in NG Usage for Heat, Hot Water and Cooking over FIVE Years. Great misuse of a natural resource to reduce emissions by at Most 30% emitted value/volume. And yet the very people that DEMANDED this BS, refuse to evaluate the value of RAW Ammonia released from the Exhaust Stream when the Heat is NOT there for the catalyst bed to function.
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Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2025 at 6:36am
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Holy Hannah ! I could run my house for 5 YEARS on the energy it take to make 4 gallons of DEF !!!!!! Yikes, if THAT was reported int eh 'media', surely something would be done...???? OK, I'm dreaming again, silly me... ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: jvin248
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2025 at 7:37am
Traditional "Media" is owned by the advertisers, and "the message". Best to ignore them. I find clearer and faster news on twitter/X these days. Pepsi bought a small test fleet of Tesla electric prototype semis to haul between medium distance facilities. Pop is heavy. Apparently that went well. I believe Walmart and UPS have tests ongoing. Walmart wants full auto robot trucks for long haul loads, which is easier than inner city activities. There is a YouTube channel for a startup company Edison Motors that is working on heavy industry/off road (mud, ice) haulers like logging trucks. The high torque for electric motors benefits that application, but uses juice. There are even individuals working the angle on tractors, a YouTube kid converted his grandfather's worn out MF-50 tractor to electric. Moving round bales and wagons. He is planning to get more batteries for more work hours. It will be interesting to see DEF vanish with all regs rollbacks planned. Can't imagine it will be left in place. Wonder what it will take to reprogram existing trucks/tractors to pull it since they spent so much effort locking limp home def mode? .
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Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2025 at 4:26pm
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The problem of Automated Trucks is they cannot read Chain law signage, they also have issues DOCUMENTED of Not seeing certain machines or PEOPLE that walk in front of them. Electrics really have no place as Require a 7kv transformer to 480v Transformer to supply the Chargers for these. AMPERAGE is Measured in the Thousands not Hundreds. Again, STL Metro attempted to recharge ONE SOLITARY Bus off existing lines to a shop, Popped the Safety Fuses for an ENTIRE Neighborhood on that section of Grid, Dropped the Sub Station. AMEREN then installed a Sub Station JUST FOR the Chargers at Each of Five METRO garages, to charge UP TO four buses each. Had to Stagger them ON the chargers over three hours or Popped That Safety Breaker. Six Hours to recharge A 40% Level battery on ONE Buss to 95% at 480v 310amps, BTW Amps INCREASE as batteries attain higher charge and produce charging resistance. VxA =Watts. 148kw for 6 hours is 888 KW for ONE Bus for ONE recharge. My home only uses 2400kw in a Month, Average.
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Posted By: Gary
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2025 at 9:12pm
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Jay Are you referring to the $20 Billion total that Ont. is providing in Cash and the Feds are providing in Tax exemptions to Volkswagen to build a Battery Plant in St. Thomas? How many Volkswagen Assembly Plants are there in Canada? Nil How many of these Volkswagen Batteries will GM, Ford, Stellantis receive NIL Batteries will be shipped out of the Country to only be used in Volkswagens. Volkswagen Sales have been plummeting rapidly since 2020 G |
Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2025 at 2:48am
| Volkswagon also owns International truck manufacturing. New Scout line will have an EV. Desperation moves? |
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2025 at 6:40am
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There's at least THREE EV battery plants to be 'built'. One, in kaybec ? , NEXT to a river, in marshland..really WHAT could possibly go wrong ? Meanwhile Ford Oakville plant will be closed for good in 2030. It's too bad the guv didn't mandate/make a law that ALL EV batteries had to be certain size and connectors. That ONE law could have allowed EVs to actually ,almost be viable. Still shaking my head that I could easily heat + eat from the energy equal of 5 Litres of DEF. ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |