Wd45 electrical help please!
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URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=187028
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Topic: Wd45 electrical help please!
Posted By: captaindana
Subject: Wd45 electrical help please!
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 12:46pm
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So long story short I did a 12 V neg ground alternator conversion on my 45:0wide front. I wired it per the instructions but I did not know how to wire my toggle switch on off switch. I have the one wire alt going to my new ammeter. I am keeping the rod start to the starter and a toggle on off. I have something wrong because it starts right up and when the alt kicks in to charge it stumbles and backfires! Thanks. Dana ------------- Blue Skies and Tail Winds Dana |
Replies:
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 1:03pm
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If you actually have a ONE WIRE alternator, you connect the BIG LUG on the back, to the PLUS side of the battery ( or solenoid cable).... You dont use the smaller wire / plug and there is not ON-OFF for the alternator... The ON-OFF just kills power to your ignition coil.
------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 1:07pm
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IF you have a 3 wire system and you are using the two prong plug on the side of the alternator...... thats different.. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: captaindana
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 3:19pm
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Thanks steve. Yes it’s a true 1 wire alt. I need to know exactly how to wire from alt to batt to ammeter to coil to starter and how to include on off toggle. Thanks! Dana ------------- Blue Skies and Tail Winds Dana |
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 3:46pm
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if the one wire uses a D22AC1 regulator, it'll eventually drain the battery . That regulator 'leaks' about 2ma of current (think Red LED). Not a problem if you start at least once a week,but leave for 1-2 months you could hear grrr,gr,,gr, click... ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 4:21pm
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The ALTERNATOR is not part of the ignition circuit... The BIG LUG on the back of the alternator should have a #8 wire connected to it and run to the HOT starter SOLENOID wire, or the HOT battery terminal ( +12 volts - NOT SWITCHED)... The IGNITION system has a smaller wire from the battery - to ignition switch - to the coil - to the distributor..... this is your ON- OFF switch ( ignition switch or toggle).. There is a second smaller wire that goes from the IGNITIONS switch to the starter solenoid and is MOMENTARY energized for cranking to start..
------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 4:27pm
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something like this ........... small terminals 1 and 2 on the side of the alternator are not used.. the battery feeds the ammeter with something like #12 wire. Ammeter feeds the switch.. Switch send power to the coil for ignition when running... and also MOMENTARY to the starter solenoid when cranking.  ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: captaindana
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 4:28pm
 If this works here is what I’ve done. Thanks Steve I Have to run and will work on your last reply tomorrow. Thank you again!! Dana ------------- Blue Skies and Tail Winds Dana |
Posted By: captaindana
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 4:38pm
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I have no key switch just push pull and I start with the original pull rod and original starter. It starts and runs rough and when I add power and alt kicks in charging it misses and backfires and….I shut it down real quick like! ------------- Blue Skies and Tail Winds Dana |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 4:42pm
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OK... looks like your starter solenoid ( or maybe rod push starter) is on the starter motor.. No problem........ What might be happening is in the alternator wiring.. If you REALLY have a 1 wire alternator, then you dont need the small jumper from the BIG LUG on the back to the small #2 terminal on the side... You dont use either of the small 2 terminals.. Remove that wire and test.  ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 5:03pm
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A 'real' one wire alternator will (should) have a plastic cap to hide the 1 and 2 terminals, which apparently CAN be connected to the 'innards' of the alternator . Actually the 1 and 2 terminals shouldn't even be there...... ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: captaindana
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 8:00pm
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Hi again. My alt came from jds. It’s only one wire and I do not see any other terminals whatsoever. I did ground the alt with a separate wire from a threaded hole towards the bottom. I also purchased from jds the mount and the 12v internal resistored coil. Somethings really screwy here. It starts badly runs badly but when I add throttle and the ammeter jumps up over 20 it backfires uncontrollably so I hit the toggle to kill it instantly. Could they have sold me a 6v coil? I’m stumped! She was totally tuned up and ran perfect before this conversion so ?? Thanks y’all! Dana ------------- Blue Skies and Tail Winds Dana |
Posted By: Kenny L.
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 10:23pm
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captaindana, you can go to the farm equipment knowledge base sections and look for Duey's helpful homepage it has a link to his homepage and you can see how and he tell you how to do it. |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 10:30pm
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It starts badly runs badly but when I add throttle and the ammeter jumps up over 20 it backfires uncontrollably Disconnect the power wire from the alternator and start the tractor... That will show you that the alternator is not the problem, and probably the coil / point / ignition is the problem....... If all you did was replace the coil, i would start there. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: captaindana
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2022 at 4:52am
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Great idea Steve. I wired this job using Dueys diagrams. I thought the points condenser didn’t care if 6 or 12 v? But after 65 years on this beautiful old girl somethings cooking that she don’t like lol! This morning she’s getting all new tie rods. And yes I will disconnect the alt and see…. Thanks! It’s easier to jet all day and not look out the window than to wire this job successfully! Lol. 😤 ------------- Blue Skies and Tail Winds Dana |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2022 at 9:02am
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"could" be the condenser dieing out.......... But normally they are a GO- NO GO type of component.....they dont slowly die. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: captaindana
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2022 at 10:09am
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Hey this is turning into a freaking soap opera! It won’t fire with the alternator wire off! WTF🤷🏻♂️ ------------- Blue Skies and Tail Winds Dana |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2022 at 12:21pm
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You better check all your wires... At this point i would put a jumper wire from the POSITIVE terminal of the battery , to the POSITIVE terminal on the coil ( take the old wire off)... Now you got power to the coil.. Crank and it will start...... ( if it dont start with the jumper, then you have burnt up the coil or condenser). If that works, you need to look at all the wiring.. Somehow the IGNITION is getting POWER from the alternator wire ??? Not a good plan.
------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2022 at 9:00am
A jumper wire from the coil back to the battery should make the tractor start.. Use an aligator clip or something on one end so you can remove to kill the motor. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: captaindana
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2022 at 12:51pm
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OK here is what I do not understand. The wire coming off the alternator goes to the positive side of the ammeter and on the negative side of the amateur it goes to the starter solenoid there’s also a wire on the starter solenoid going back to the positive post of the battery. On the neg side of the ammeter is yet another wire going to my toggle on off switch and when it’s on it connects the wire going to the coil. Just look at my diagram that I included towards the beginning of this post. When this engine starts it runs rough but when I cracked the throttle and the ammeter shoots up over 20 amps the engine almost self destruct‘s with backfires and I have to shut it down immediately. In my diagram above I don’t see any way that the ignition switch can’t get power from the ammeter. The on off switch is hooked right to the same terminal as the wire coming off the alternator and then it goes to the starter post which is hooked to the battery what am I missing. Ugh. Dana. If anyone would like to call me to help me understand what I’m missing here I’ll be available from now (2 pm edst until 7 o’clock tonight 518-542-8779 thank you so much Capt. Dana ------------- Blue Skies and Tail Winds Dana |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2022 at 1:11pm
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Everything you describe and your drawing all appear to be correct... The problem is when you disconnect the alternator wire , you said you loose power to the coil ?.... and if the alternator kicks in, the coil becomes erratic on firing... Neither of those two symptoms make any sense if the wires are connected as you said. I still think i would jumper from battery to the coil and see if it starts and runs proper.. If so, then verify or replace the wires at the ammeter and push/ pull ignition switch... Something is not connected right........... You should be able to pull the wire off the alternator and have the tractor start and run without problems. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: captaindana
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2022 at 1:27pm
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Thank you I am on the road flying for two days but I can assure you I took all of the wires off and put them all back on 10 times over with the same results. But Friday I will do what you just said with the coil. I did replace the new condenser with another new BlueStreak condenser and I had all kinds of beautiful spark yesterday so I started it up and the same thing it backfired so loudly and blew the rain cap flapper through the ceiling! ------------- Blue Skies and Tail Winds Dana |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2022 at 3:51pm
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bypassing everything and running a jumper straight to the coil will do two thing... --- it will eliminate the possibility of the ON_OFF switch , ammeter, and alternator being a problem.. --if it still backfires, then you need to start looking at the timing , point gap has changed, etc.... I know it ran great before you installed the coil and alternator... maybe just a coincidence and something else failed.... bypass wire will help confirm. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: captaindana
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2022 at 5:31pm
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Can hardly wait to get home😆! ------------- Blue Skies and Tail Winds Dana |
Posted By: Sugarmaker
Date Posted: 17 Mar 2022 at 8:48am
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Dana, I used a slightly different approach recommended by Steve NJ. I used a volt meter instead of a ammeter. have 4 tractors wired like this and it seems to work good.  Humm, I may have run the wire from the voltmeter to the bat terminal on the switch rather than the acc terminal?? Regards, Chris
------------- D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet. |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 17 Mar 2022 at 11:24am
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Chris... did Steve recommend running the alternator power wire thru that key switch to shut off the alternator ? Normally the alternator runs straight to the battery due to its output capacity. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: Sugarmaker
Date Posted: 17 Mar 2022 at 7:52pm
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Steve(ill), I have slept since then. will have to go back and try to look at my crude diagrams again. I think the answer is yes. Regards, Chris ------------- D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet. |
Posted By: captaindana
Date Posted: 18 Mar 2022 at 6:12pm
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Got home, checked wiring for the 20th time, said to myself keep it simple. Bought another set of blue streak points, installed, runs PERFECTLY! The other set of points had maybe 20 minutes total time. I took a ride on her. She’s tuned perfectly. New tie rods. Power steering. Bout the only tractor I have of the 23 that kinda scares me when I add power. If you’re not holding on you could definitely fall off backwards and die! SNAPPY with a capital S! Thanks to all whom helped me!! Capt. DANA ------------- Blue Skies and Tail Winds Dana |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 18 Mar 2022 at 7:04pm
  ................... thats always tough when the problem come up that is NOT part of what you were updating in the beginning !!------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: tractorboy
Date Posted: 18 Mar 2022 at 10:48pm
Glad you got it going ! I put some genuine blue streak points/condensor in my d-10 they lasted bout 4 hrs run time !  keith so. va.
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Posted By: captaindana
Date Posted: 19 Mar 2022 at 5:27am
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Hey Steve is there an advantage to using a voltmeter instead of ammeter? My Beech jets and Lear jets have both. Thanks DANA ------------- Blue Skies and Tail Winds Dana |
Posted By: Sugarmaker
Date Posted: 19 Mar 2022 at 8:51am
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Dana, Glad its going! Yea the 45's have a snappy governor! Hang on! I like the volt meter recommended by Steve NJ. Installs like a acc. Some folks like the ammeter! Regards, Chris
------------- D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet. |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 19 Mar 2022 at 9:22am
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MOST older equip had ammeters and MOST newer equip ( cars and trucks) have volt meters... It is really a preference... One difference is that BOTH work good when the battery is low and you can see the ammeter charging 15-20 amps and the volt meter charging at 14.8 volts .............. the DIFFERENCE is that when the battery is charged, the ammeter goes to 2 amps and the volt meter drops to 14.2 volts ............... you can see the charge on the volt meter... its hard to see 2 amps on the ammeter and tell if it is working or not. I have always used the ammeter. You can turn on the lights and see the needle jump and come back to a few amps charge to check its operation.... Really just a preference..... Autos do it because the ammeter needs a BIG WIRE to carry the amps ( some new autos put out 100 amps) .... and the volt meter can run on a 18 gauge wire (cheaper).
------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: Jim.ME
Date Posted: 19 Mar 2022 at 11:47am
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Sugarmaker, I'm with steve(ill) is questioning the alternator output wiring shown in the drawing you posted. In the drawing you posted, I think the 8–10-gauge output wire from the alternator should go to the battery cable stud on the starter switch, not to the voltmeter, then to the ignition switch, etc. You would need to run the 8–10-gauge wire between the voltmeter, ignition switch, and to the starter stud. I do not see an ignition switch handling the alternator output current reliably for any length of time. Other than that, your drawing looks ok. Running it directly to the starter stud also eliminates the need to bring the alternator output wire into your instrument panel. A 12-gauge wire can feed the ignition switch and the lights you show.
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Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 19 Mar 2022 at 12:26pm
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Yes Jim.... the alternator wire going thru the switch has been working because he has a good battery and fully charged and output of alternator is only 2-3 amps.... If that batttery goes dead and you have to jump start it..... as soon as the tractor starts, the alternator is going to go to 30- 40 amp charge... That would be a little tough for the switch.. You could take the alternator wire off the ACC terminal and connect to the BAT terminal on the switch to solve the problem.... or like jim said, eliminate a couple wires and routing into the switch box and just run the ALTER to the BATTERY or hot wire off the battery at starter/ solenoid. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: jvin248
Date Posted: 19 Mar 2022 at 7:02pm
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. Are they called Blue Streak because you'll be cussing a blue streak after trying them? I'll need to keep my distance from them, if possible. .
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Posted By: Jim.ME
Date Posted: 19 Mar 2022 at 10:24pm
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I don't think most will cuss a blue streak from using them. Blue Streak is the premium Standard Motor Products line. In my opinion they are one of the best available currently. I get Blue Streak where available and the original Standard line where there is not Blue Streak coverage. I will not say there can't be issues with them as well as others, but I believe their track record is better than most. Standard also has a trade line now, which I understand is basically to be more cost competitive with others on the market, which uses a "T" suffix on the end of many of the same part numbers as use on their higher-grade lines. SMP makes Echlin products for NAPA along with other private brands.
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