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Solar panel question

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Topic: Solar panel question
Posted By: LouSWPA
Subject: Solar panel question
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2021 at 9:08am
Anybody know what happens when it snows? I see all these houses with solar panels on the roof of the house, what happens in the winter? do they have internal heaters?

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I am still confident of this;
I will see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living.
Wait for the Lord;
be strong and take heart and wait for the Lord. Ps 27



Replies:
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2021 at 9:18am
simple answer...
they stop working.......
NONE have heaters in them(well ,none I know of)

Actually power output goes down as they get 'dirty' from dust,leaves, snow, neighbour's shingles, etc.......

Also to get maximum power output, they need to be realigned, at least seasonally, some 'smart' ones will do it daily.

usually the installer will(should ?)  align for best AVERAGE power, like life, it's a compromise.


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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)

Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water


Posted By: mdm1
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2021 at 10:56am
The snow will slide off at some point. Don't really know if there is any heat generated because they are black. I do reset mine 2 times a year at our cabin. Mar and Sept. Could do it 4 times but not worth it. larger stand alone systems  I have seen do have tracking mechanisms for the sunlight. I don't worry about alittle bit of dust on my panels although I will wipe them off and really don't see much difference in output. My system is at my cabin not my house so I really don't get concerned if my output goes down just alittle bit. 

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Everything is impossible until someone does it! WD45-trip loader 1947 c w/woods belly mower, 1939 B, #3 sickle mower 1944 B, 2 1948 G's. Misc other equipment that my wife calls JUNK!


Posted By: JohnColo
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2021 at 8:59pm
There is an 8 acre solar farm right behind my place which supplies much of the power for the city sewer plant next to it.  They also have a nat gas engine generator which runs at night using gas produced by the sewage.  Here in Colorado the snow usually slides off the collectors in a few hours after the storm passes.  I've never seen anyone washing the panels so I guess they rely on the occasional rain storm to keep them clean.
I was hoping they would have a 240 volt outlet somewhere near the property line that I could plug into, no luck! LOL


Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2021 at 11:22pm
A thorough covering of snow WILL reflect most of the visible light, and practically ALL the UV, but  Very Near Infrared and below, will will still pass through to the cell, and be absorbed.  The cell won't generate a substantial amount of PV output, but they DO convert it to heat, which will melt snow off fairly quickly.

The circumstance which is most common, is a late-night snowfall, as daytime snowfalls tend to melt off as the accumulation lands... but nighttime doesn't.  A broom on a long stick will do a pretty good job of it.

Solar tracking DOES have an affect on performance, however, an array's gathering efficiency at low angles (when the sun is closest to horizon) is substantially lower simply because the incoming solar energy is substantially lower because the distribution of energy is skewed by being 'bent' through the atmosphere... essentially, Fresnel effect.  You can SEE what happens when light passes through a prism- it fans out at varying angles based on light frequencies... this same thing happens when light 'bends' through the atmosphere, and it's the reason why you get deep red, orange, and yellow colors at sunrise and sunset.  During a low-angle (i.e. very northerly latitudes in winter), the sun is lower on the horizon for a longer duration.

While you could gain efficiency by TRACKING the array to that direction, the performance improvement is NOT going to yield the kind of output that one sees by doing same tracking during mid-summer.

One visual way to quantify the 'bending' is color... the OTHER, is simply noting the size of the sun or moon at the horizon, as compared to later.  The large appearance is result of the greatest 'bending'.


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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.


Posted By: shameless dude
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2021 at 11:28pm
hafta either brush the snow off with a broom or let it melt off


Posted By: NEVER green
Date Posted: 14 Nov 2021 at 8:26am

    Solar farm behind my brother, depending on the temp, amount of cloudy days and snow, the winter a few yrs ago snow was on them for two months.

   One year the snow couldnt slide off because it piled up to high, there is always snow on them.


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2-8050 1-7080 6080 D-19 modelE & A 7040   R50       


Posted By: Dusty MI
Date Posted: 14 Nov 2021 at 9:09am
A couple comments on Solar Farm.
To me a Farm is land where food is produced. Electricity is not food.
I wish there was a standard panel, so the output in different areas of the country could be compared.
Michigan is rated at 47th. of the 48 continnetal states. Is it worth taking up food producing land with solar panels, in MI. rather than in States where there is a lot of sun shine? Sometimes so much that crops do not do well.  


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917 H, '48 G, '65 D-10 series III "Allis Express"


Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 14 Nov 2021 at 12:36pm
I'll agree with you on the 'farm' concept, Dusty- turning a viable field into a solar farm is silly, particularly in our lattitude and environment.  Out in the southwest, where desert doesn't grow crops without incredible resource investment of irrigation, it's a different story.

The best place for solar panels, is where there's already a roof, or a need for shade.  The 10KW system I helped build on Clinch Mountain in Tennessee, is basically an extension of a tractor shed...  like a big carport.

We DID make it directable for elevation.  changing for azimuth was not a potential of significant improvement, and elevation really only needs to be changed during spring and fall... it's done with a pair of trailer screw-jacks.  Crank it full up for summer, full down for winter, the stops put it at proper elevation... the change is only about 34 degrees (by comparison, the earth's tilt is 23.43 degrees).  The net change of solar angle due to tilt is 23.43*2= 46.86 degrees... but summer high-angle capture is so high, that trying to give it more, yields no change in absorption (full load is full load, right?).

During winter, the cell angle is low enough that snow and leaves slide off nicely.

Dust is most problematic in areas that get little rain, high wind, and infrequent rain.  Rain washes them off nicely, and while wind blows debris on, it also blows them off.

The most troublesome circumstance, is birds, geese and ducks.  Gotta wash the poop off if they hang out there often... a really good rain will clear small bird droppings, but goose pooh don't.


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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.


Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 14 Nov 2021 at 12:51pm
Solar array in Ofallon MO, 1.3mW on Peak delivery and the proposed site now under construct of the New Florence MO Solar Site to be 1.5mW at peak delivery across from Hoette Tree Farm(Lined on Map).







Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2021 at 8:13am
Don'tcha just love the way they lay out the whole 'plan' so that no matter WHO wants to go WHERE, they ALL have to drive through a maze, concentrating all traffic through the same paths?

That's a demonstration of the insolence of 'social engineering'...  'Traffic Engineers' refer to it as 'traffic calming'... attempts to get people to reduce speeds...

Any moron who looks at it, will recognize what will REALLY happen.  During morning commute hours, every other house on the block will have someone leaving, zigzagging through all that sprawl, to drop off two kids at the elementary, then repeating the process to find a way out to main thoroughfare to get to work...


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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.


Posted By: shameless dude
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2021 at 11:09am
dUSTY...I ALSO AGREE WITH THE "FARM" designation bunk. i also hate it when the money grabbers take good farm land to build houses, strip malls, anything on when there is so much land that isn't farmable.


Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2021 at 12:03pm
kids SHOULD be WALKING to school,.....
I feel sorry for EMS and FIRE having to drive in the 'mouse mazes'.....

'farm' is just a name that everyone can understand. heck there's a whole herd of them panels in the field, and someone is 'milking' them for few elecrons and a LOT of cash...


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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)

Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water


Posted By: Lars(wi)
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2021 at 3:28pm
I detest engineers that plat out curves, and such tripe. Absolutely hate them!! Every last one of them should taken out and shot. What waste of taxpayer money to purposely put in a curved road.

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I tried to follow the science, but it was not there. I then followed the money, and that’s where I found the science.


Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2021 at 3:48pm
plat really means 'plot' ... must hvae phat phingers like me......

BIGGEST idiotic  thing an 'engineer' has done is down at the creek, last week.
On thursday, the construction crew  carefully dug a soft side of a creekbed and placed in 5 chunks of 'armour stone', each about 4x4x5 FEET, solid stone,row of 3 ,then 2 on top.MASSIVE, should last until the 4,000 year flood comes. BTW Greensville Creek(has it's own website !)..well, a night of light drinkin and you could pee more than what flows....sorry I digress..
Anyway , I drive there Friday ( less than 24 hrs) and there's 5 MORE stones, neat.
NO !
The 'engineer' told the contractor to REMOVE the stones, replace with maybe 800#s of 4" stones... so now the bank has a layer of loose rock on top of the loose base material.
Already ,less than 3 days, some of the 4" stones have washed down into the creek..sigh
EVERYONE (cept the engineer) agrees 'shoring up' the bank was a GREAT idea as stones were on site leftovers AND there's a driveway NEXT to the bank,used by 3-4 businesses. I'll be taking pictures when a semi falls into the creek....
idiot, no wonder my American Aunt would NOT hire any 'ring bearer'.
Well, it's there now, I suspect it'll be gone once Spring comes


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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)

Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water


Posted By: darrel in ND
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2021 at 10:37am
Here in ND, our hurricane force winds would keep the snow off of them
Darrel


Posted By: Ray54
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2021 at 10:57am
Originally posted by shameless dude shameless dude wrote:

dUSTY...I ALSO AGREE WITH THE "FARM" designation bunk. i also hate it when the money grabbers take good farm land to build houses, strip malls, anything on when there is so much land that isn't farmable.

Has been my feeling most of my life. I always just had this thing I wanted to grow things. The most any of us can do for mankind, grow food so all can eat.


But little by little my mind has changed, Wink probably the acks and pains of working all those years. But in a time of making only a penny or 2 for a years work, and all the money you put out to grow a crop. How much less would we as farmer make if we had all the really good acres of ground that are covered by houses and other buildings growing crops. Besides a good dozer could clear houses just as easy as trees and brush have been cleared in the past. Cry But still makes me sad to see the best dirt growing houses.Cry



On the other hand right near me in a area with no irrigation water and average rainfall of about 8 inches. So growing much is a very hit and miss thing. The envirros  got all hot and bothered because putting solar panels over a 1000 or 2 acres was going to be terrible. It would disrupt a endangered mouse and lizard. Wink The endangered mouse has whiskers just a tad different than it's cousin's that are not endangered.  


Posted By: BrianC
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2021 at 1:40pm
Just 1 mile west of me is the Long Island Solar Farm.
220 acres of woods torn up for sake of being green.
30MW set up. This is on the grounds for the former US army's Camp Upton.
Built up for WWI, then totally torn down, then rebuilt for WWII. After
the war, it became the Brookhaven National Laboratory. Nuclear Physics.
They have big machines, accelerators, research reactor and such.




View looking north. Body of water in the hazy distance is the Long Island Sound. Beyond that is Connecticut coast. In the very upper right corner of the picture ,tall building on the beach, is the Shoreham Nuclear Power Plant. A big financial fiasco. Cost the ratepayers 6 billion dollars and it never make a single watt onto the grid. They did load it up with fuel, got it to fission, irradiated/contaminated. Then they shuttered it down for decommissioning. Typical New York screw up. We can't even get a Bass Pro Store built. However the plant is a source of electricity-they ran an DC undersea cable
to the mainland. Ultimately, I think the electricity comes from Canada.
I link to a tour of the shutdown plant. Pretty interesting.
https://www.scoutingny.com/scouting-a-decommissioned-nuclear-power-plant/" rel="nofollow - https://www.scoutingny.com/scouting-a-decommissioned-nuclear-power-plant/




Posted By: tadams(OH)
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2021 at 2:33pm
Remove trees and cry about Global Warming


Posted By: BrianC
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2021 at 4:00pm
So that 220 acre solar "farm" has a special deal with the utility. They get $0.34 for every KWH they send out to the grid. It makes 44GWH per year. That adds up to $14 million dollars per year. Does your 200 acre farm gross $14 million per year?

However, If I had a grid connected solar system they will only pay me 4 cents per excess KWH that I send to the grid. Not 34. Plus they limit you to a 10KW system.

So to push greenness, they just finagled a rate to subsidize it, the regular customers are footing the bill.

I don't know if they clear the snow off of those panels.


Posted By: tadams(OH)
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2021 at 2:50pm
 I won't be suprised if the panel don't move and they can dump snow


Posted By: Walker
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2021 at 7:30pm
Originally posted by tadams(OH) tadams(OH) wrote:

Remove trees and cry about Global Warming
         Far more money to be extorted from global ?? than trees.


Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 31 Jan 2023 at 9:09am
SPAM SPAM SPAM....


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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)

Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water


Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 31 Jan 2023 at 11:15am
True true true


Posted By: DiyDave
Date Posted: 31 Jan 2023 at 5:45pm
Did I hear a request?Wink

https:///youtu.be/mBcY3W5WgNU" rel="nofollow - https:///youtu.be/mBcY3W5WgNU


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Source: Babylon Bee. Sponsored by BRAWNDO, its got what you need!


Posted By: Kansas99
Date Posted: 31 Jan 2023 at 7:49pm
You guys are just upset because it took a spammer to point out if your roof would be at a slight angle the snow would just slide off and you wouldn't have to be up there shoveling all the time. Wink LOL


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"LET"S GO BRANDON!!"


Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 01 Feb 2023 at 4:25am
I still cannot see if living on small to median parcel of ground that the panels MUST go on a roof.

See numbers of them on free standing frames and yet speaking to those owners they will not pay for themselves in their lifetimes. Mid sixties adding panels and understand they could be dead and buried before see any return of notable value.


Posted By: DonDittmar
Date Posted: 01 Feb 2023 at 6:19am
Wind, solar, and hydroelectric are OK to a point. I still say a wind farm is wash of red ink and they will never generate enough power to make up for what was spent in energy to build and install them in the first place but whatever. 

If we want a RELIABLE power grid it will need some sort of "fossil fuel" plant in it. If we took all "non green" power plants offline we would all be sitting in the dark staring at a wall


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Experience is a fancy name for past mistakes. "Great moments are born from great opportunity"

1968 D15D,1962 D19D
Also 1965 Cub Loboy and 1958 JD 720 Diesel Pony Start


Posted By: DanWi
Date Posted: 01 Feb 2023 at 8:05am
It was so cloudy here in January the solar lights at the end of the driveway only light up for an hour or 2 if at all. Makes me think solar panels wouldn't be putting out that much power either then.


Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 01 Feb 2023 at 8:16am
All renewables are subject to deficiencies in imparted energy to make energy with, Low to NO Winds Wind Turbines, Drier than normal so no refill of water Hydro, and low value sunlight or low on horizon off season when need it more than just Summer.  Winds can also be too intense fans will self protect shut down, solar station near New Florence does move to collect as much as possible yet currently is only producing around 3/5 design value due to clouds, filth, low sunlight time value.  When really cold is also self protects as wiring gets brittle so will secure until sun adequately heats up panels, can take up to 1/4 of the day if happens at all, That from the line crew that services the site.  And YES Solar Panels do degrade over time.  Solar array at O'Fallon MO is only 10 years old, lost close to 10% of discharge energy value in last two years, predictions are will have to replace panels at 18-20 as are seeing degrade swing exponential down increasing with each passing year faster.  Will still make power just no longer a viable power level.


Posted By: Walker
Date Posted: 01 Feb 2023 at 5:21pm
Al Gore and myself have pioneered the coal fired heater technique of keeping solar panels snow free. 


Posted By: Ray54
Date Posted: 02 Feb 2023 at 9:30am
Originally posted by Walker Walker wrote:

Al Gore and myself have pioneered the coal fired heater technique of keeping solar panels snow free. 

 Wink    To bad O'l Al is not sharing more of the profits with you. LOL


Posted By: TramwayGuy
Date Posted: 02 Feb 2023 at 1:13pm
The good news is that solar panels will get less expensive and better as the technology improves. So replacement will be a viable option.


Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 02 Feb 2023 at 1:22pm
Especially if you TAX COAL and make MORE LAWS to RESTRICT POWER PLANTS from producing Electricity.....Its not the "COST OF THE PANEL"... Its the EFFICIENCY and FREE CHEESE SUBSIDY they get to install them... Over and Over and Over..

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Like them all, but love the "B"s.


Posted By: Lars(wi)
Date Posted: 02 Feb 2023 at 2:31pm
Originally posted by TramwayGuy TramwayGuy wrote:

The good news is that solar panels will get less expensive and better as the technology improves. So replacement will be a viable option.

Holy crimeny! How long have solar panels been on the market, 4 decades now?

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I tried to follow the science, but it was not there. I then followed the money, and that’s where I found the science.


Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 02 Feb 2023 at 2:55pm
Originally posted by TramwayGuy TramwayGuy wrote:

The good news is that solar panels will get less expensive and better as the technology improves. So replacement will be a viable option.

Figured YOU would be that Stupid.  We are at MAX Threshold of efficacy with Solar Cells, that from a MEMC (Look that up) Engineer my wife worked with and now works for INTEL.  All the BS and Games of Words plays out is Nothing Better or more efficient that what is presently available and by Science basis NOTHING else any better.  Only way to make cheaper is Third World production.  Minerals, glass, base compounds for Array as Cadmium Arsenic Selenium and YES ALL are TOXIC.  Of the two dozen people my wife worked with On Solar Cells Product Engineering, and she is also in the possible contaminated, NINE have Died PANCREATIC Cancers, all before 55 y.o.  Six are being treated for that, suspect is Cadmium or Selenium Poisoning.


Posted By: TramwayGuy
Date Posted: 02 Feb 2023 at 5:34pm
“… long have solar panels been on the market, 4 decades now?”

How long were radio tubes on the market?
How long were incandescent lamps on the market?
How long were Cathode Ray Tubes on the market?
…more than 4 decades also, before something better came along?


Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 02 Feb 2023 at 5:38pm
So you would know something a Engineer in the field wouldn't?

BTW, MEMC Corp was instrumental in the LATEST Recipe for Solar Panels upon Silicon Wafer for BEST Availed power production.  In the last Four Decades up to fourteen different cells had been produced, ALL as or more toxic than the last.

A small article on MEMC a Copany that no longer exists.

https://www.solarpowerworldonline.com/suppliers/memc/" rel="nofollow - MEMC - Solar Power World (solarpowerworldonline.com)


Posted By: DiyDave
Date Posted: 02 Feb 2023 at 5:56pm
Alla these solar panels as good as the Solyndra ones a certain president bought?Wink

Oh yeah, he never got any.  But we got the bill fer what, like a half a billion $ ?Ouch


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Source: Babylon Bee. Sponsored by BRAWNDO, its got what you need!


Posted By: Trinity45
Date Posted: 02 Feb 2023 at 6:12pm
All I know is we have a weather station that is run by solar panels and we have to go sweep off the panels or the batteries start to drain.


Posted By: jvin248
Date Posted: 02 Feb 2023 at 9:00pm
.

One method to fix the snow accumulation and dust loss and tracking losses is buy additional panels.

Inverters will be about as much as the panels.

I'm doing a ground mount and getting a tractor car port out of it.

I was looking at a whole house nat gas generator or backup solar and went the solar path. No control over nat gas, but I do over solar.

.


Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 02 Feb 2023 at 9:23pm
The trouble i see with solar is GOVT CHOOSING WINNERS AND LOOSERS.. They are intentionally putting COAL out of business and subsidizing the solar/ wind mill..

I dont think the govt put candles or fuel lamps out of service while SUBSIDIZING LIGHT BULBS..... thats the difference...... If solar is a GOOD IDEA, it will PAY FOR ITSELF thru private money... NOT the GOVT picking who wins.


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Like them all, but love the "B"s.


Posted By: Walker
Date Posted: 03 Feb 2023 at 8:27pm
I don't see any reason some of these new illegals couldn't keep a magnifier glass focused on the panels.  Help earn a little of their keep.


Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 04 Feb 2023 at 7:21am
re: Holy crimeny! How long have solar panels been on the market, 4 decades now?

over 6 decades that 60+ years....

I used them to charge up my battery powered tube radios when I was young.....


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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)

Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water


Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 04 Feb 2023 at 8:22am
On news last night, was a short and quick excerpt from a Liberal, stated All that needs to happen with renewables is more subsidy so it can be cheaper for more users to buy in.  They do not even hear themselves speak.


Posted By: bigal121892
Date Posted: 04 Feb 2023 at 9:03am
The solar panels are a great way to have electricity when no other source is available, i.e. pasture wells, hunting cabin, electric fencer, etc. But until the price/kilowatt generated comes down, they are not cost effective for normal everyday usage. Looked at putting them on our house, with a five day battery backup, they would have paid for themselves about the time they needed to be replaced. That's not to say that some time down the road, someone will figure out how to make them cheaper and more efficient, but that day isn't today.


Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 04 Feb 2023 at 9:42am
The good thing about snow on solar panels, is that the snow reflects sunlight back out into space... which is unlike trees, grass, plants, asphalt roads, rooftops, and solar farms, which absorb solar energy and inevitably, result in heat.  Solar panels, being dark, absorb solar energy, but only a small portion becomes photovoltaic yield, MOST of the solar absorption is converted localized heat, which contributes significantly to local temperature.

So as long as they're well-covered with snow, they're preventing global warming...

Once they're uncovered, regardless of wether they're operating, they're contributing to climate change.

What we need, is a more assertive ice age.  Let's start a go-fund-type program to help pay for an ice age. 

We can start by building an induction coil around the equator, connect it to an inverter powered by solar cells, and run some low frequency AC through it to nullify what's left of the earth's magnetosphere (it is degrading now, as we're starting another pole reversal)...  that will allow such a significant rise in solar absorption that the oceans will evaporate faster, causing moisture to travel to the poles, freeze and fall as snow and ice, and as those caps build, the temperate zones will migrate south, bringing glaciation south into north Georgia, the Texas panhandle, all of Arizona, and most of California... 

After a few hundred millenia, when the magnetic polarity of the earth finishes reversing, and has reached about 50-or-so degrees inclination the other way, the magnetosphere will rebuild, blocking all those crazy DNA-scrambling gamma-rays, icebergs will break off and float into the Caribbean, and whatever mutants survive, can ride bamboo bicycles to Lowe's and buy $1300 lawn chairs...


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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.


Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 04 Feb 2023 at 1:18pm
You do understand these 'Reflective Panels' are On The Ground?  That reflected Heat DISSIPATES thru the Atmosphere into said atmosphere so has little to no chance of reaching space with much of any value.  Another of the CC Group claims that holds water like a Collander.


Posted By: bigal121892
Date Posted: 04 Feb 2023 at 2:18pm
I think that was sarcasm.


Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 04 Feb 2023 at 2:26pm
After looking back realized that, but message was already gone!!  Oh well.


Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2023 at 8:08am
spam spam spam


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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)

Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water



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