Live PTO-Live hydraulics?
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=184099
Printed Date: 11 Aug 2025 at 12:03am
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Topic: Live PTO-Live hydraulics?
Posted By: Ky.Allis
Subject: Live PTO-Live hydraulics?
Date Posted: 22 Oct 2021 at 1:58pm
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Got into a argument (friendly) with a young "know-it-all" and here's what I have always been told. Live PTO is the ability of any tractor to stop forward travel and the PTO remain operating. If this is correct then AC tractors all the way back to the WD & CA(with hand clutch) would have Live PTO. Independent PTO is any tractor that PTO can be engaged without depressing foot clutch. If this is correct then independent PTO for AC started with 180/190 with optional hydraulic PTO engagement. Models 170/175 never had this option. Live hydraulics allows hydraulic functions any time engine is running regardless of foot clutch being engaged or not. If this is correct then AC's from D17/4 and up were live hydraulic systems. Now I know some older AC's had front pumps mounted at some point but I'm not counting those. Does any of this make sense or am I like our president and been "MISINFORMED"
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Replies:
Posted By: RMD
Date Posted: 22 Oct 2021 at 2:45pm
| Actually, I think the first ACs with independent PTO and hydraulics were the post-1961 (basically Series II and III) D10/D12. Surprisingly the early D10/D12 didn't have the CA's hand clutch and had no form of live PTO. |
Posted By: Joe(TX)
Date Posted: 22 Oct 2021 at 4:16pm
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180/190's had live pto when using the power director whether it had hydraulic or mechanical pto. Independent is when you push in the foot clutch and the pto continues. ------------- 1970 190XT, 1973 200, 1962 D-19 Diesel, 1979 7010, 1957 WD45, 1950 WD, 1961 D17, Speed Patrol, D14, All crop 66 big bin, 180 diesel, 1970 170 diesel, FP80 forklift. Gleaner A |
Posted By: tomstractorsandtoys
Date Posted: 22 Oct 2021 at 4:46pm
| I consider independent pto any pto that starts and stops that is totaly disconnected to the foot clutch being enguaged or disenguaged. So I do not consider the 180-190 to have independent pto no matter if hyd enguaged or not. They do have live pto and I agree even the CA and WD is live pto. I still shake my head as to why the 180-190's did not have a fully independent pto from brand new. Dad talked about how he hated the pto setup on my grandfathers 190XT when chopping corn silage. If you were chopping in high range you could not hardly stop and change gears across the headlands. Dad also had a brand new 4020 at the same time. Tom |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 22 Oct 2021 at 10:07pm
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A live PTO works with the use of a two-stage clutch. ... This allows the operator to slow down or change gears while the PTO is still operating. ....... An independent PTO means that the PTO shaft is controlled with a separate clutch. the CA would be an "odd" version ... which could be considered LIVE https://www.tractordata.com/articles/technical/pto.html#:~:text=A%20live%20PTO%20works%20with,of%20a%20two%2Dstage%20clutch.&text=This%20allows%20the%20operator%20to,controlled%20with%20a%20separate%20clutch." rel="nofollow - |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 22 Oct 2021 at 10:22pm
| Maybe we need three descriptions: Fully independent: PTO can be engaged/disengaged at any time with no effect when using the main clutch or shifting gears. Independent: PTO can be engaged/disengaged any time the main clutch is engaged and the PTO is "live" as long as the main clutch is engaged and the Power Director clutch is used to start/stop ground travel. Live: PTO will keep running when main clutch is engaged and Power Director or hand clutch is used to start/stop ground travel. This would also include the two-stage Ford/Massey systems. |
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 23 Oct 2021 at 6:40am
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I like the good Doctors wording... cept.... has ANYONE got a D-14 that actually STOPS when the PD is in neutral ? All 3 of mine creep a bit..... ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 23 Oct 2021 at 6:53am
| When the Power Director oil (trans/hyd oil) is warm enough your hand thinks it is HOT when you touch the torque housing next to the PTO lever, I'll bet it doesn't creep then. Correct and hot oil makes creeping negligible. Creeping in LOW gear is always worse than creeping in FOURTH gear. |
Posted By: Lon(MN)
Date Posted: 23 Oct 2021 at 7:15am
I have a D14 that does not creep. I rebuilt it and used trans/hydraulic oil. I can shift it using the power director only. My other D14 and two D17s a different story. ------------- http://lonsallischalmers.com |
jaybmiller wrote:Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 23 Oct 2021 at 9:28am
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Hydraulics and power-takeoff are, like hitching systems, a historic battleground of patent and trademark in agricultural technology. The NAMES used fell under 'Trademark', while the METHOD of operation, was protected under patent. The END RESULT was where the 'spoils of war' resided- did it accomplish the goal... do the job... and provide the benefit of the feature which was to make a manufacturer the 'king'. Most who are confounded by why manufacturers did so many things, and used so many names, don't realize that it was a giant chess-game of patents, trademarks, and lawsuits. The Aliis Chalmers Power Director is something we all are well familiar of. Compare it to the IH/Farmall Torque Amplifier... they attempted to do essentially the same thing, but two different ways. The Power Director used a high and low ratio gearset, and a pair of wet clutches. The Torque Amplifier did it with two sets of gears, and an overrunning clutch. They were both well-advertised, and found their way in most tractors after 1957 or so. What's the differences that REALLY mattered? The P-D had NEUTRAL. The T/A was either up, or down. IF you were bailing hay with a T/A, and were starting to plug up the baler, you could flip to low, and HOPE the baler would catch up. With a T/A, you could bump to NEUTRAL, let it catch up, then pull LOW. On Grandpa's Series II, My usual was 2nd gear HI, and pull it low when it started getting a bit thick, nudge to Neutral. With a T/A, I'd been SOL. Now, it's been a long time since I looked at one, and I never bailed with one, but I THINK that an IH 560, the PTO was driven independant of the transmission and main clutch, I could probably release the foot clutch, and the PTO would stay running... in effect, the same RESULT as pulling a PD to neutral, but on the Allis, doing so would disengage the bailer. IIRC it was Cockshutt/Co-Op that held the patent on the 'first' full-live PTO (meaning, totally-independant of the transmission clutch) Why didn't someone do it so that there was a P/D AND a 'totally live' PTO? Well, doing so would put them in peril of substantial patent litigation, OR, they'd have to pay royalties for using the concept, or probably BOTH. And never, ever, ever forget- Companies' R&D departments would come up with ideas that NOBODY uses, and they'd PATENT them... and NEVER use them. Why? Because doing so, means that if someone else comes up with the same idea, and puts it into production, you've got 'em cornered into a patent-infrigment suit, with damages and royalties. It wasn't until long after the patents expired, that a manufacturer could safely use methods developed by others... unless, of course, the manufacturer was able to run their competition out of business, and then BUY them out of insolvency, which DID happen often... and not just in agricultural biz. Buying out what's left of a company means you have all their intellectual property. We call things all "3-point" because Harry Ferguson fought to keep rights to HIS invention when his relationship with Ford went south. All the other hitching systems fell away to the '3-point' after Harry's patents expired. Doesn't matter what we call it... it only matters what it IS. ------------- Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest. |