I know, why on earth...reasons, I got reasons...

No idea what that is about.  If it means I wouldn tneed a battery im interested.

No idea what that is about.  If it means I wouldn tneed a battery im interested.

[/QUOTE

What I was trying to suggest is with a magneto /hand crank setup

most magnetoes have a spring loaded impulse coupling that does two things .It retards spark

and gives the mag a quick spin in order to produce a decent spark at hand crank speeds .

But by making your distributor manually adjustable you could retard spark timing enough to make it "safe" to hand crank ,  Battery ,dizzy, points , coil would still be required

Just my tired brain thinking out loud

What he said...want to eliminate the battery.

But upon more study I think my trusty Super c would work as it would meet my HP requirements. I have hand cranked it since I was a boy (when the !@@% battery is weak) and very easy to do so.

It would also work after an EMP blast.

Wise man has spoken!

 Then it rained a couple of days and the battery was totally dead, when it dried up and I needed to get back to baling didn't have any jumper cables. The WD had a 6v system, so I hooked a 6v lantern battery to the coil and cranked it by hand, and it started.

Good Luck!

Bill Long

Yeah I think the Super C will suffice... I have been toying with the idea for a few years now of getting a small pto generator and dont want to worry about the battery of  the tractor dedicated to it.  Never got a "roundtuit" but the thinking crosses my mind every so often hence the question...Well this round of "thinking about it" has actually moved me forward iin my thinking.....I got the tractor figured out and the actual PTO unit figured out....Will bring the topic again up oh maybe in another year or so ;) 

Propane vapor -- just enuff to to get it to my NG hookup.

I want to start it without any external electrical supply....jumper box--needs utility electricity to charge it.  Batterys-need to be kept charged from utility electrcity if dead...

Hey oddball stuff!

Compression release devices aid in manual start. Where do you get that?

It has been stated the magneto probably will fit.

Magneto+battery for starting only- last all summer on a charge? AGM battery better?

The jump start boxes.

Solar charger to maintain battery? No utility needed.

off-track:

I see no application here, but I know the small scale wind industry has automobile-size alternators with permanent magnets. I assume you don't need a battery with them? Anyone know? I was just curious on that, I realize that at hand crank speed they could not make enough juice to fire a distributor system.

I think I would try the solar maintainer on a stock D17.

No I dont, only static electricity is allowed in my religion.

The magneto swap would be the easy part. To my knowledge, none of the D series, especially the D17, ever had the capability to be hand cranked. The front bolster has no provision for hand crank components as well as the crankshaft pulley either. Sounds like too much work to convert one to me though I do understand your reasoning for wanting to. Same reasoning that my WD still has and will stay with a magneto setup as long as I am around.

D series chassis isn't setup for hand cranking.

Well as I posted earlier, I have since decided to use another tractor. The problem you state just about puts that idea to rest

Shouldn't be that bad. I have no idea what compression my WD45 has or how that compares to a D17 but was always told that our WD45 was equal in power to a D17 due to the way it was rebuilt many years ago. I have been hand cranking it whenever necessary ever since I was a young teen many years ago. It was a little easier back then when the original manifold had a vacuum petcock valve in it that could be opened. The replacement manifold I put on it about 15 years ago doesn't have that but she still starts within the first 2-3 cranks as long as there is still any juice left in the battery at all. Unfortunately, she sits idle more than she used to and I have gotten used to the battery going weak as she sits so I don't even bother with the starter that 1st time. The battery can be low enough to not even spin the engine with the starter but she'll still fire up with just a few cranks with the hand crank. Once she has run long enough to charge the battery back up, she'll start with the starter all day long if need be.

HudCo wrote: 400 $ jumper boxes wont last long hooked directly to a starter before they are ruined

You can pickup a jumper box for $50 at HF.  You don't need to leave it connected to the tractor with a mag.

No good  

I have an interest in "off-grid" living.  Would like to be as independent as possible from 

delicate civilized things like say, public utilities....and from complicated modern stuff...

Doesnt mean I want to live like that, but be ABLE to live like that...for instance I use electricity to pump water from my well, but I want to put in a hand pump to fill the tank and pressurize the line manually.....if my generator gave out.  I got NG from my well, so my NG would be off grid- so my cooking and water heat is off grid.

Not having to depend on batteries is a part of that.

That kind of stuff...  I just always found the self sufficiency topic interesting and never felt good having to depend  on the grid.

I would want one of those too...I got a little brick milkhouse next to the house....

"off-grid" to me means having to depend on "outside resources" as little as possible.  A battery is a consumable made on the outside.  Solar no use when battery goes bad.   

I can look in my parts books when I get a chance and see what’s needed

But as a power unit was the engine at the higher compression as the D17 version was?

When I look at my D17 grill there is a cut out for the hand crank to be inserted and the pully does seem to be shaped in a way to catch the crank end...but the  guys here are saying there is something else needed I dont have...

Tom, I know EXACTLY where you're goin'... and I'm that way myself.  There's a difference between being dependant, and being able to enjoy the comfort of a certain modicum of independence.  There is absolutely NO reason why anyone can justify snubbing another's pursuit of rugged individualism.  My reason is simply location:  My property's location is susceptible to outages, which usually happen under the worst weather circumstances.

My D17 is a series 1, and it HAD a crank-capable front pulley, and there IS a hole going through the bolster, as I removed said pulley, and utilized said hole for my live-hydraulic pump.

I don't see the compression ratio being significant enough to preclude hand cranking, particularly with a hot magneto.  I've cranked over things that were a lot more beastly.

My 17 has a power steering pump, and off the top of my head, I don't know if that, or the distributor drive setup, would conflict with putting on a magneto.

My largest backup generator has a Hercules JXLD 338ci inline six, with a magneto, and a propane mixer.  It will start, run, and generate just fine with NO battery required.  Of course, it still has an electric starter, and a distributor... it will crank and run off of either, and will recharge it's battery once started.  I've never HAD to crank it by hand, but I do... usually, I just step on the crank, as one step will push it past TDC, and after three pushes, it's got a live charge in a cylinder, and the moment the impulser clacks, off it goes.

In the circumstance of emergency/standby power, diesel fuel is certainly better in long-term storage than gasoline, but there is no comparison to the storage life of propane.  My generators are fed by a pair of 1000-gallon tanks on the back of the property.  A nasty ice-storm could knock down our lines for a week, and we do just fine.

If you REALLY wanna get your fuel-value out of it, plumb the engine's cooling system into a heat exchanger inside your house, and set up your furnace with a temp switch-  if the heat exchanger water is hot, disable the furnace's fuel valve (just run the blower)... that way the generator's waste-heat is directed into your house, rather than discarded to waste... and your furnace isn't burning fuel!!!

Wow Dave, you are waaayyy ahead of me! Thankfully I dont have such weather issues.

I would intend to use the generator intermittingly for specific tasks. Basically want the ability to live like a Amishman if I NEED to.  But I wouldnt mind having a conventional whole house generator.

I'm really thinking my Super C is the correct platform.  Run it on propane for mobile work, run on NG for stationary work like power gen.  Get a fast hitch set of implements.

I dunno, just once again daydreaming....I got a 175 I need to get operational first...   

Yet I see youtube videos saying to pull down.  I do like you explain it....Love the Super C for hand staring....often I can start it up cold with just one crank.  

That's an odd definition, but in the spirit of such, once you get the tractor going, doesn't the generator (alternator) make it self sustaining? Which would mean all you really need is a spark source to get it going whilst it cranks, couldn't you just put a capacitor where the battery is? That way you don't need to modify as much? And you have the bonus of still having an onboard power source for lights.

Well call it what you will...does "goin Amish" sound better?

Best way to not be caught with a uncharged or defected battery is by not having one.

>>doesn't the generator (alternator) make it self sustaining?

Sure does

>> Which would mean all you really need is a spark source to get it going whilst it cranks, couldn't you just put a capacitor where the battery is?

I suppose, but where do I get my initial spark source?   Isnt that where the magneto comes in?

 I've got to add something that happened many many years ago. 

 A guy had a WD-45 that was not turning over well with the starter, so he put a starter gear reduction adapter on it. It then kicked and broke the adapter. 

 Then it was discovered that the advance/retard in the ignition was stuck on advance.

Dusty  

Even a defective battery is probably good enough to provide an initial spark, if you are hand cranking the engine. And if you are self-sustaining, where are you getting your gasoline from? Surely that's a bigger consumable than a battery?

TomYaz wrote: >>doesn't the generator (alternator) make it self sustaining? Sure does >> Which would mean all you really need is a spark source to get it going whilst it cranks, couldn't you just put a capacitor where the battery is? I suppose, but where do I get my initial spark source?   Isnt that where the magneto comes in?

The capacitor would get enough charge from the turning of the generator/alternator to provide your initial spark, or just leave an old battery in there, and hand crank either way.

I need something that will get me net 15HP at the PTO @ 540 RPM using NG/Propane. so about a tractor with 20% more HP? to make up for switch from gasoline??===20HP PTO?

 Then it was discovered that the advance/retard in the ignition was stuck on advance.

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Which is EXACTLY WHY when Bosch patented the Impulse Coupling, it was such a success:

Not only did it provide a very rapid 'flip' to the magneto armature (generating a really hot spark at basically NO crankshaft speed), it also delayed the spark by almost 20 degrees.

A properly set up magneto, and properly timed engine, will absolutely never 'kick back'. If it does, it's because the magneto is not set up properly, or it's not properly timed.

if the magneto's impulser coupling is not retarding, it is not impulsing, either, because the 20 degree retard is how the impulser coupling's clock spring winds up in the first place.

Most people don't have a clue of the 'why' when they repeat the hand-crank warning, they have no concept of where that warning originated... those that do, are those that own, or have owned a Ford Model T, or a Ford Model A.  Why?  Because Henry did NOT see fit to install OTHER manufacturers' components on his products, nor did he take kindly to the concept of paying royalties on others' patents.  As a result, he deemed his ignition systems 'good enough', and for incidents where the Model T's buzzer coil, timer, and flywheel-magnet generator scheme, or the Model A's hand-op spark advance resulted in an injury, he identified it as 'operator error'.   I assure ANYONE who takes a hand to the crank of my '24 T or '29 A, that if they don't EXPLICITY follow the proper method of cranking, REGARDLESS of how they hold the crank, or address the pull, the engine WILL kick them, and break their forearm.  Period.

If you look at the incidence of hand-crank injuries for those starting engines with impulser couplings, particularly the Bosch-patent types used in American Bosch, Wico, Fairbanks-Morse, and others, you'll find that MOST of those injuries are due to the crankshaft bore and crank becoming bound, and not properly releasing from the crank, coming around in the FORWARD direction, and striking the individual who had already had the crank pulled from hand.  If they were injured by a kick-back, it was because they did not properly time the magneto.

Yaz-  Some people 'get it'... the rest, just don't.

If I ever get to doing this....big "if" as I have more ideas then cash or time, I got to be sure to get a magneto edumacation from ya!  Lot of stuff you said went WOOOSHHH over the head due to my ignorance!