Welding Cast Iron
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Forum Name: Shops, Barns, Varmints, and Trucks
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URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=161171
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Topic: Welding Cast Iron
Posted By: Tbone95
Subject: Welding Cast Iron
Date Posted: 20 May 2019 at 10:40am
I'm already not much of a welder. Then on Saturday, I was driving with my head up my butt thinking of a million other things and caught a row marker on a fence post pulling into the next field. There's 2 "small" pieces that weld to the bushing that the pin goes through where the joint in the middle of the marker folds. All this is cast. Not very thick, 1/4 inch. So I had my first shot at welding cast. I thought I did OK. Welds looked pretty good actually, especially coming outta my hands....Alas, they held together for a while, but 25 acres later it all fell apart. I have to wonder, how I got it to hold together that long, but then still not be "good enough".
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Replies:
Posted By: Clay
Date Posted: 20 May 2019 at 11:15am
Did you pre- heat the area to be welded? A very SLOW cool down is necessary or there is the potential of cracking. A needle scaler helps to relieve stresses, after welding. Did you use nickle rod?
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Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 20 May 2019 at 11:21am
I did it 'old school'.....BRAZED the busted tabs onto the trannny of my Willys PU. PRE heat is essential as clay said.
------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)
Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water
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Posted By: Coke-in-MN
Date Posted: 20 May 2019 at 12:10pm
One can use a cast iron rod (Allstate #8) works good for most - prep work is part of process - V the piece - then tack weld - then weld in a couple passes - Another is to use SS rod as it also have nickel content - again prep work Brazing is also a option and in many cases can be the best solution as the full peening or process of crack developing from stress is mostly eliminated . As a buildup to add metal to reinforce a welded area - mild steel rod or 7018 rod can be added to areas repaired with cast rod or nickel rod as a overlay as the steel welding rod will alloy with the base filler rod to complete the repair .
------------- Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something. "Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."
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Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 20 May 2019 at 12:29pm
I used cast iron rod. I can't be specific because I didn't look, as Dad handed me a few sticks out of the pack he bought for cast iron, said it's "cast rod". Dad......also talked me out of the preheat. Not sure why. Not sure why I didn't stick to my guns as I 'know' this......Partly emotional, I know it hurts his feelings when he says stuff and I keep doing it another way. v-ing the area will be very difficult, as everything is circular. Going to have to grind off the weld I just put on, so I'll see if I can work in at least some of a v. Don't own a needle scaler...... Brazing, I'm actually pretty good with a flame. However, I believe most of this joint, being sprung such as it was, has too much gap for braze. On the preheating, how hot? Cherry red? Bright red/orange? That dark black to red transition....???
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Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 20 May 2019 at 12:56pm
If its a little corner of the casting with not much MEAT left to it, I would replace... I cut a 1/4 inch plate ( steel) a little oversize and get more area to weld if possible... VEE it out and weld to the original casting........... then redrill the hole later to the correct size.. Temp is just warm, not red.... 200- 250 degrees is OK... and when your done let it cool SLOW. Keep out of any wind or cool areas.. Cover with a canvas tarp or blanket can help.
------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 20 May 2019 at 1:12pm
steve(ill) wrote:
If its a little corner of the casting with not much MEAT left to it, I would replace... I cut a 1/4 inch plate ( steel) a little oversize and get more area to weld if possible... VEE it out and weld to the original casting........... then redrill the hole later to the correct size.. Temp is just warm, not red.... 200- 250 degrees is OK... and when your done let it cool SLOW. Keep out of any wind or cool areas.. Cover with a canvas tarp or blanket can help. |
So.....you're welding the steel "patch" to the cast iron with cast rod?
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Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 20 May 2019 at 5:30pm
YES.... I throw away the broken little pieces.. Cut a LARGE piece of steel that spans further in both directions so you can get more weld ( as long as it don't interfere with a mating part.. The BIGGER the steel piece you add on, the better ( more weld surface)... and I normally use a Stainless rod since it has nickel ( soft - flowable metal) in it...... but a good cast iron rod should be basically the same thing........... after all the welding, I grind and bevel the new metal to blend in as needed.... then drill any holes.
------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 20 May 2019 at 5:45pm
Here is a little drawing for further explaination.. If the little cast eye is too small to weld QUALITY... then I grind it all off. ( Broken at the GREEN line -- grind back to the RED line). Then I can cut a steel plate to approx. size and bevel both sides to a VEE.. Weld this up with some type of nickel rod... let it cool, the grind to shape and drill the hole. It helps to make ONE pass with the rod, then PECK on it for 1 minute with a chipping hammer. The pecking relieves stress and gives the HEAT time to soak in and stabilize... Then do another pass ( on the back side), and PECK on it and give time for heat soak... repeat, repeat.. etc. TIME is a good thing.. GO SLOW.
------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Posted By: desertjoe
Date Posted: 20 May 2019 at 7:21pm
Well,,I'm fixin to get into some cast iron welding on a Massey Ferguson block. After talkin with ole Leon,,he clued me on to using Nickle 55 as it is made especially for this. The Nickle 55 is available for arc or tig welding. I looked it up on the internet and article was very informative. PRE-HEAT is a must but only to 150°-200° NOT cheery red,,,,! Like others say here the prep is most important and cleanliness of the work is right next to the man upstairs. They recommend bout a 1" weld,,change to another area and do the alternating so the work does not get too hot. A slow cool down is recommended. I'm kinda looking forward to the delivery of the weld rod to see how it comes out.
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Posted By: JC-WI
Date Posted: 20 May 2019 at 8:11pm
Do as Steve says, "PECK on it for 1 minute with a chipping hammer." or us a punch and hammer. Like to do a short v stitch and relieve it. and if you can do the back side, do that and get to the center, leave no crack inside the weld. peen weld repeat...till you are done. and as usual, leave no sl*g in the welds either.
------------- He who says there is no evil has already deceived himself The truth is the truth, sugar coated or not. Trawler II says, "Remember that."
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Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 20 May 2019 at 8:14pm
Cast iron covers a variety of "metals".... some "cast" is good quality and welds good... some "cast" is crap and welds like crap.. You don't know till you try... Now if the parts are FORGED then they weldup nice........... CAST can go either way.. Like joe said.... GET IT CLEAN... wire brush, then wire brush, then do it again.
Cast iron rods are normally around 55% nickel ........ Stainless rods are in the 15% range. Should be easier to weld with less cracking with the 55%.
------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Posted By: Ken(MI)
Date Posted: 20 May 2019 at 8:39pm
Do as you wish, but there is a reason why industry uses very little cast iron welding, brazing is superior as there is no heat affected zone, thus no embrittlement, and the strength and ductility of the brass is almost identical to cast iron. Proper preparation is to clean the casting of grease and oil, and chip where the joint will be, any form of abrasion, or even wire wheel use will cause smearing of the graphite inherent to cast iron which impedes proper welding or brazing. Pre heat and post heat and controlled cooling rates are important. Any form of welding will impart a brittle heat affected zone that reduces strength of the joint. One exception to this is spray welding with a Bronze-Nickel powder which actually alloys with the cast iron to reduce this heat affected zone to some degree, and can be used on burned out cast iron as in manifolds where conventional brazing can not be applied.
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Posted By: cabinhollow
Date Posted: 20 May 2019 at 9:06pm
This reminds me of a 20 year navy guy I know. He was chief elc on a ship. They had a oven you could drive a forklift into for cleaning motors. The welding shop chief ask him about using the oven. They had a very large cast iron part to weld. They brought it up to temp and then had 3-4 welders take turns going into the oven to do the welding. It was 90 sec. per welder, with medic on hand and etc. 4-5 hour job, not counting per heat and cool down.
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Posted By: shameless dude
Date Posted: 21 May 2019 at 12:09am
while you are playing with welding, get on the phone and order the new part!
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Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 21 May 2019 at 7:09am
Thanks to all, and I'd say a special thanks to Steve for the detailed explanation. Sadly, I don't think I have room to do that, as the other piece of the hinge fits snug over the outside of two eyelets, both of which are broken. No room to the inside for anything sizable. But I understand the concept and maybe I can put that to use some day. Gosh shameless, if'n' I had your level of money, I would do just that! 
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Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 21 May 2019 at 7:12am
cabinhollow wrote:
This reminds me of a 20 year navy guy I know. He was chief elc on a ship. They had a oven you could drive a forklift into for cleaning motors. The welding shop chief ask him about using the oven. They had a very large cast iron part to weld. They brought it up to temp and then had 3-4 welders take turns going into the oven to do the welding. It was 90 sec. per welder, with medic on hand and etc. 4-5 hour job, not counting per heat and cool down.
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Used to work with a guy who before that worked at a glassware company. When they had to work on that equipment (somewhere on the forming line?), it was a three man rotation. One would go in there, I forget the exact interval, 2 or 3 minutes I think. With 10 seconds to go they would pat him on the leg as a warning. When the timer struck 0, 1 man on each leg would pull him out no questions ask! Rotate, until job complete.
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Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 21 May 2019 at 7:14am
Ken(MI) wrote:
Do as you wish, but there is a reason why industry uses very little cast iron welding, brazing is superior as there is no heat affected zone, thus no embrittlement, and the strength and ductility of the brass is almost identical to cast iron. Proper preparation is to clean the casting of grease and oil, and chip where the joint will be, any form of abrasion, or even wire wheel use will cause smearing of the graphite inherent to cast iron which impedes proper welding or brazing. Pre heat and post heat and controlled cooling rates are important. Any form of welding will impart a brittle heat affected zone that reduces strength of the joint. One exception to this is spray welding with a Bronze-Nickel powder which actually alloys with the cast iron to reduce this heat affected zone to some degree, and can be used on burned out cast iron as in manifolds where conventional brazing can not be applied. |
Well, "the industry" made it that way to begin with! 
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Posted By: ac fleet
Date Posted: 22 May 2019 at 9:00am
On small parts brazing is the best way to make it hold.
------------- http://machinebuildersnetwork.com/
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Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 22 May 2019 at 10:56am
ac fleet wrote:
On small parts brazing is the best way to make it hold.
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Yeah, maybe I should have done that. I thought there was too much gap to fill with braze. Now that the weld broke out, there's even more gap. Should have worked with grinder to get a fit, then braze. And there's lots of things in my life I "shoulda" done. I made a modification last night, drilled 2 new holes in the little arms, cut off where the old hole was to make room to fold. Doesn't fold all the way down now, so looks goofy, but might get me through the season. If not, may be doing a lot of grinding and fitting and brazing (and swearing!).
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Posted By: LeonR2013
Date Posted: 22 May 2019 at 10:11pm
Years ago we had a welding shop in Columbia, Mo. If you remember the old M's and Super M,s had a tendency to lose the outboard bearing on the drive axle. When this happened it cracked the axle housing. My brother in law would take it apart and take it in and they would braze it up. Never broke again. Leon
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Posted By: shameless dude
Date Posted: 23 May 2019 at 12:47am
T-bone...can you have the part made from steel to replace the cast part? on my newer IH disk, I would break the mounts that held the scrapers, they were cast iron, after the second one broke I had a local machine shop make me some mounts out of thick steel and never had a problem after that, plus it was cheaper than buying new ones from IH. my old IH disk had the steel mounts on it and there was never a problem with them.
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Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 23 May 2019 at 9:07am
Well my rig job lasted through 15 acres of soybeans last night. Almost done for the season. If it lasts the rest of the way, I’d like to be done spending time and money on it. Maybe next spring, if there’s enough pennies in the jar, get me some new Yetters. Part obsolete as is. Lots of decisions to make, as my fert wagon is pretty well f’ed as well. Maybe a different rig all together set up for liquid?
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Posted By: JC-WI
Date Posted: 23 May 2019 at 9:52am
Go liquid.
------------- He who says there is no evil has already deceived himself The truth is the truth, sugar coated or not. Trawler II says, "Remember that."
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