adding gas to diesel
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Topic: adding gas to diesel
Posted By: jaybmiller
Subject: adding gas to diesel
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2016 at 5:21pm
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OK, as most know I have an 'special, ultra low compression' Buda diesel in my A-C forklift...someone told me to try adding some regular car gas into the diesel to help it start. Currently it needs 3 squirts of ether to get her going,runs on 2 1/2-3 cyls then all 4 fter 2-3 minutes. Figure I'd ask the experts here before I try it ! Jay ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Replies:
Posted By: Dan73
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2016 at 5:26pm
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Don't mix gas into your diesel fuel!!! We had a 55 gallon barrel of mixed diesel gas here when I was a kid. My uncle claimed that someone put gas into one of the diesel tractors here and it separated sitting over night. Blew the motor the next day when a slug of straight gas went through. Took use years to figure out how to properly dispose of the barrel of mixed fuel that was left. It all happened before my time I just remember trying to find someone who would take the mixed fuel for disposal. Finally found someone who had a bunch of gear oil he wanted to run through a waste oil heater he took it to mix in there. |
Posted By: Coke-in-MN
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2016 at 5:31pm
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I your having a starting problem it's not the fuel but either the pump or low compression . As for mixing gas with diesel - it is done to lower #2 fuel to #1 so as not to jell- about 1 gallon per 20 gallons of #2 - for use in cold climate in emergency - NOT FOR NORMAL USE . So you may have bad injectors , bad pump , timing , or low compression - check all those before doing a voo-doo fix with mixed fuels ------------- Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something. "Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful." |
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2016 at 5:33pm
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hmm never thought about the 2 separating and the lift sits quiet most of the time.... OK, so NO gas... what about 'additives' or def ? anything to help her start and run ? she is a 'challenge' to get going once Old Man Winter appears.....and no I still don't have 5K for a rebuild.... I generaly wait until 2-3 jobs need to be done,then use it. Jay ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: Dan73
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2016 at 5:37pm
| Add one of the heaters you put into the coolant system once you heat the block up it will start easier. |
Posted By: DougS
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2016 at 5:41pm
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Raising the cetane number will assist in starting more than adding gasoline. There are several cetane boosters on the market, but I'm a bit skeptical. Buy high quality fuel and fix your other issues if that doesn't do the trick. |
Posted By: Dave H
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2016 at 5:53pm
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Have you got a plug in heater? I would think that thing would be happier if you fed it something like WD 40 to boost the start. |
Posted By: JIMncMO
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2016 at 8:05pm
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The light distillates that gasolines are made from have a natural high-octane index. The middle distillates that diesel fuels come from have a high cetane index. The octane and cetane indexes are INVERSE scales. A fuel that has a high octane number has a low cetane number, and a high cetane fuel has a low octane number. Anything with a high octane rating will retard diesel fuel's ability to ignite. That's why each fuel has developed along with different types of engine designs and fuel delivery systems. Gasoline mixed in diesel fuel will inhibit combustion in a http://www.amazon.com/gp/search?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&index=automotive&keywords=diesel%2Bengine&linkCode=ur2" rel="nofollow - diesel engine and diesel fuel mixed in gasoline will ignite too soon in a http://www.amazon.com/gp/search?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&index=automotive&keywords=gasoline%2Bengine&linkCode=ur2" rel="nofollow - gasoline engine . |
Posted By: Bill_MN
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2016 at 8:14pm
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Does it have glow plugs? The not running on #4 right away seems like the cylinders are just too cold to start. A block heater would go a long way for sure.
------------- 1951 WD #78283, 1918 Case 28x50 Thresher #76738, Case Centennial B 2x16 Plow |
Posted By: Don(MO)
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2016 at 8:37pm
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Save the gas for your D14's. lol The old Budas use one intake heater not glow plugs. You can get away with using #1 fuel in a light engine load like a fork truck is. I'd pull the injectors and have them tested first them look at the energy cells next. Yes a good block heater is best. ------------- 3 WD45's with power steering,G,D15 fork lift,D19, W-Speed Patrol, "A" Gleaner with a 330 corn head,"66" combine,roto-baler, and lots of Snap Coupler implements to make them work for their keep. |
Posted By: m16ty
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2016 at 9:30pm
Whatever you do, don't add DEF. All that is is urea and water and will pretty much ruin all fuel related items, including the injector pump.
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jaybmiller wrote:Posted By: Dan73
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2016 at 9:47pm
| Funny DEF pretty much ruined all my intrest in a new diesel engine. Makes me want to keep the old ones running.... |
Posted By: DougS
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2016 at 9:52pm
My car uses DEF. No big deal. It uses about 2 gallons per 15,000 miles. It costs about $8.00 for that amount at Wally World. It beats the heck out of EGR, which robs horsepower. |
Posted By: Dan73
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2016 at 9:55pm
| Still scared of any system that is designed to freeze up near zero. To many 20 plus below nights here for me to think adding a liquid that freezes to a car is a good thing. |
Posted By: Brian Jasper co. Ia
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2016 at 11:13pm
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First and foremost, gasoline will not blow up a diesel. I've pumped out far too many diesels that were filled a BP station because they refuse to use industry standard colors for pump identification. While it is a dirty thing to do to the high pressure side of the system, there are not enough BTUs in gasoline to run the engine on the amounts injected. The next one is since gasoline is thinner than diesel, developing enough pressure to inject is a challenge. In small amounts gasoline can cause serious wear on the pump and injectors. NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER put DEF in the fuel tank. I did say NEVER right? City of Newton Iowa did that to one of their ambulances. It died on a run. Cost them about $16,000 for me to replace every metal part in the fuel system. Pump injectors all fuel lines. DEF is extremely corrosive to metal parts. If you accidentally do put DEF in the fuel tank, DO NOT START THE ENGINE! A tow bill and cleaning the fuel tank is a whole bunch cheaper than the alternative. DEF is 33% urea 66% water. It freezes at about 12 degrees. It's used in conjunction with the selective reduction catalyst to reduce oxides of nitrogen or NOX. DEF systems have no negative impact on engine performance as EGR does. The EPA mandates programming to force you to keep DEF in the tank and the system working. They have clamped down on programmers that eliminate aftertreatment systems so they're not as easy to get anymore. Since DEF freezes, there are electric tank and line heaters. The only exception I know of in the automotive world is Chrysler tried to use engine coolant the first year or two on Ram chassis cabs. It worked very well to thaw the frozen tank, but heating the DEF too much causes it to quickly break down and become ineffective. ------------- "Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford |
Posted By: shameless (ne)
Date Posted: 30 Nov 2016 at 1:44am
| i'm with Dan on keeping the old ones running! |
Posted By: JoeO(CMO)
Date Posted: 30 Nov 2016 at 6:08am
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I knew I was behind when I saw the "DEF" in a post above. Sooo,,I googled it. http://www.discoverdef.com/def-overview/faq/ seems like a person has to buy more and more to make something work!! ------------- |
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 30 Nov 2016 at 6:27am
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hmmm interesting about DEF... sure be a nice way to stop 'kids' from 'borrowing' cans of gas at midnight....... NOT that I'm saying to do this.....but if you mislabelled or misjugged some DEF..... back on track..... Even WITH the lift 'up to temperature', mid summer, it still needs a squirt or two maybe 50% of the time which kinda says a block heater probably won't help . Still looking for the right low budget 'bandaid',only use maybe 2 gallons of diesel a month.... Jay ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: Dan73
Date Posted: 30 Nov 2016 at 6:35am
| Heat will help. Won't fix a tired motor but the cold is why you can't start it in the winter but can get it to start in the summer. If you want to get it to start right you have to rebuild the motor Jay. Sorry no magic fix for a tired motor.... |
Posted By: Brent.eggers
Date Posted: 30 Nov 2016 at 6:47am
| Either is cheap it's meant to start engines you mainly have to no how strong you are applying it without either the world would be a very bad place. If your scared use a little Weeker brand their is strong & week either . |
Posted By: Butch(OH)
Date Posted: 30 Nov 2016 at 7:38am
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I have seen worn out but lightly used diesels limped along for many years by using starting fluid. One of them sits right outside my office door in an old Case fork lift that gets run for 30 minutes a week. Another one is a W11B loader at my place. I would just keep using the starting fluid, obviously you are smart about using it. People ruin engines with it when they spray a continuous stream in the breather until the engine fires. Smart people realize that it takes a few revolutions for it to be drawn in and don't do that. You can also save the starter a bit by installing one of the kits with a 1/8 line going into the intake. When I start my old Case I get it a shot and if it is missing it gets another little shot to get it going on all 4. I was told years ago by an experienced CAT mechanic to do that and NEVER let a diesel run along missing until it warms up. |
Posted By: TimNearFortWorth
Date Posted: 30 Nov 2016 at 9:36am
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Interesting that DEF should come up and the following is worth passing on. Take from it what you want, it was overheard or relayed to me. Was riding with a fella that has a GMC Duramax 4x4 double cab, 2015, fully loaded with everything he could order on it seems (never seen "full leather" cover so much of the interior on a pickup before). He receives a call from his buddy at the dealership telling him they want the truck and will give him 48K on trade for a new fully loaded 2017 GMC Duramax and he replies he would have to think about it as he gave nearly 70K for it and it only had 90K miles on it so just getting broke in (runs back and forth to West Texas constantly). Dealer salesman buddy tells him they have DEF systems causing total replacement of the system coming in weekly and it is tracking between 90 - 110K on miles when they go down, at 3500-4000.00 charge to fix/replace. I don't think much of it, bought myself a 2007 6.0 2500HD 2WD for the small farm/tractor toy towing a few years ago. Had Cummins with company trucks but all were 2006 or older. Loved em' but wondered how the DEF was going to add to the overall diesel pickup operating costs for folks and would it eventually start pushing some back to gas engines as the diesel option seems to be pushing these pickup costs ever higher. Three weeks later I am at the shop where I bought my CM bed for my 2500HD as I needed a front grill guard and nerf bars so a fat boy can get in/out easier. Ask the owner of the shop when he bought the new RAM 2500 double cab 4x4, with a HEMI, as he was always so pro Cummins and had a 2014 model last time I was in over a year ago. He relays his story on the DEF as he had taken his diesel in for a oil change at the dealership when his salesman buddy pulls him to the side and tells him he needs to get rid of the truck as they are seeing units come in for system replacement to the tune of 3000.00 plus, at around 100-120K miles. He advised he decided to let it ride and it went down two months later. Had it towed in, swapped it for the HEMI and said he will not have another newer diesel. Anyone else hearing things about this? |
Posted By: DougS
Date Posted: 30 Nov 2016 at 10:52am
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Read my post above. DEF is not that expensive. I have my car serviced every 10,000 miles and they refill the DEF tank at that time. They put in a little under two gallons. Let's put it this way: They cost of DEF is far less than the cost of what you lose in MPG with an EGR system. The last time I bought DEF it cost me $10.99 for a 2.5 gallon container. |
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 30 Nov 2016 at 10:54am
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OK..follow up.... tried 3 spray bottle squeezes of WD40.... silent 3 squirts of ether... she starts....yeah, belches a lot of light whitey/blue smoke for 4-5 minutes but once she settles down, runs OK....... seems the old gal needs something 'peppyer' than WD40 to get her going..... re:DEF. I heard that if you're driving and run out of DEF and then shut off the truck, it AIN'T going to start again UNTIL you refill the DEF can ! Tell me that wouldn't be 'fun' 50 miles from anywhere,middle of winter, 2AM,.... Jay ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: Dan73
Date Posted: 30 Nov 2016 at 10:56am
| My concern isn't the cost it is how long can that jug take freezing and thawing everytime I start the truck all winter long. That sounds like a broken system just waiting to happen. |
Posted By: DougS
Date Posted: 30 Nov 2016 at 11:03am
My car sat outside all last winter without benefit of a garage. It hit a minus 18 on a couple of nights. There were spells when it got down near zero for many days in a row. There was nary a hiccup from anything, including the DEF system. It isn't as if "only a few" diesels run DEF. There are thousands out there and I've never heard of DEF/freezing problems. |
Posted By: Dan73
Date Posted: 30 Nov 2016 at 11:05am
| I hope you are right I will give them a about 15 years first to see how time proves it out. |
Posted By: Ed (Ont)
Date Posted: 30 Nov 2016 at 11:06am
| Jay we are using brake clean in our shop for some of the hard starts and cold starts. Seems to work well and cheaper than ether. |
Posted By: PaulB
Date Posted: 30 Nov 2016 at 11:57am
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The quickest thing I would suggest to starting a diesel without either or plugging it in, would be fire up your propane plumber's torch and stick in in the intake open intake plug. By the time you can get around to the starter button it will fire right off. As said above Gasoline and Diesel are not meant to be mixed. If you don't use it much just run it on Kerosene with a lubrication additive. Also Gasoline will suspend water easily and a drop of that will blow the tip off of an injector.
------------- If it was fun to pull in LOW gear, I could have a John Deere. Real pullers don't have speed limits. If you can't make it GO... make it SHINY |
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 30 Nov 2016 at 2:30pm
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nuther update. I do have a single manifold glowplug,that works but sure drains the battery down. I was thinking of a 2nd battery,then need to rejig the alternator to recharge both batteries. suposed to be crummy rest of the week so I may look into that. ANy idea how long to run the glowplug for? should it be on while starting? Obviously NO ether or 'helper' chemicals ..... Jay ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: Dan73
Date Posted: 30 Nov 2016 at 2:35pm
| Normally you hold them on for about 2 to 5 minutes depending on how despite cold and shut them off before starting. Hook the position to the position and the negative to the negative on the two batteries and you will be ok the system will see 12 volts and twice the current the charging will work normal. But I would rather put a trickle charger on it and plug it in when I want to start it may be plug it in 4 hours or more before hand that will heat the battery up and top it off they are cheep think called RV chargers ment to be left plugged in all the time to make sure your rv will start in the spring. |
Posted By: Dan73
Date Posted: 30 Nov 2016 at 7:45pm
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Shameless maybe you can help out the shareholders next time you see them and add some DEF for them. Sounds like they might have forgotten to put it in the fuel tank you wouldn't want them to run out.... It will probably be a better stress relief to you knowing you help them out then smoking. Or just refill the dry gas can with Def for them.... |
Posted By: DiyDave
Date Posted: 30 Nov 2016 at 8:22pm
As Dan said, 2-5 mins to run a air horn type pre-heater, and don't use ether, when doing it! I'd just park a coleman single burner gas stove under the oil pan, for about 45 mins prior to trying to start. Don't do this, on a leaky engine... If ya do it in the morning, you can cook breakfast, and preheat, all at the same time, multi-tasking, doncha know!
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Posted By: MACK
Date Posted: 30 Nov 2016 at 9:00pm
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20-30 seconds is long enough for most glow plugs. Some guys used to start 45&D17 diesels with a corn cob hung on tractor. Unscrew plug on side of intake, stick cob in fuel tank, light cob, stick cob in manifold, and crank.(called corn cob start). MACK
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Posted By: JC-WI
Date Posted: 01 Dec 2016 at 3:47am
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On my old D17, I had a milk strainer pad in the tool box and I would give the pad a quick squirt of ether and then start cranking the engine as I brought the pad up to the hole and the old beast would start... just very short quick spray in the hole would lock her up... There was a couple times I started it with blowing flames into the manifold from a propane torch. Another fellow when he shut his WD45 diesel off, he would open the plug up and give a good squirt into that engine and then put the plug back in... said it would start right up the next time he would use it. *** As for mixing gas and diesel... NO!!! Dad topped off the tank on the old 17 one day and got 2 miles down the road and there he sat... injection pump ruined... He figured he put about 6-8 gallons of gas into the 19 gallon tank. My Bobcat has a perkins in it with cold start aid... turn the key on, and press the button for about 40 seconds and you will hear a 'wop' and release the button and turn the starter switch... the diesel fuel in the preheater catches fire and then you suck the flames in to start... and really works good. Massy harris and some others had a similer system for years. ------------- He who says there is no evil has already deceived himself The truth is the truth, sugar coated or not. Trawler II says, "Remember that." |