D15 positive ground pertronix
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Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
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URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=119134
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Topic: D15 positive ground pertronix
Posted By: Dan73
Subject: D15 positive ground pertronix
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2016 at 4:44pm
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My D15 has recently popped two 12 volt positive ground pertronix kits. Tomorrow I will be switching it back to the points. I have the 3 ohms flamethrower coil from pertronix along with the kit. I have the a system setup on my D17 and have run it for 3 years now without any trouble. Both times I installed the pertronix kit and ran the d15 for a few days without any trouble the weird part is both times it blew I left the tractor idling about 1/3 to half throttle for maybe 15 minutes after a cold start and it was running perfectly right till the point it backfired shuddered a little and then died. After that it wouldn't restart and when I got out a timing light to check the spark there is no spark. Same thing both times. The first time there was a fuse holder wired into the key switch that went nowhere so I thought maybe that wire had shorted out I removed that and now the ignition starter voltage regulator and genorator and amp meter are the only things wired up on the tractor. The genorator was recently rebuild and the voltage regulator replaced. The starter is new. I bought the first pertronix kit because it quickly burned out a set of points in maybe a month or two of work. I was wondering if a bad voltage regulator could be causing my trouble. I don't know what to check next on this one. |
Replies:
Posted By: Dan73
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2016 at 4:49pm
| Oh I also have a new cap plugs and wires on the d15 |
Posted By: DougS
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2016 at 5:08pm
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What voltage is your generator putting out? Use a good voltmeter, not a cheapie one. |
Posted By: Hubert (Ga)engine7
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2016 at 5:14pm
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I put the Petronix on my D15 but I had already changed it to negative ground. It has been working great and the tractor runs better than ever. Sounds like it could be the voltage regulator. Did you polarize the generator when you reinstalled it?
------------- Just an old country boy saved by the grace of God. |
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2016 at 6:34pm
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I'm with Hubert about the genny needing to be polarized. Odds are the shop rebuilding it might have done it negative ground being the most common 12V system for testing it out. What happens is the genny will try to 'reverse' charge the battery, which is really bad in the long run...BTDT, sigh I lost a great semi battery on the Gleaner cause I thought it was a negative ground system and hooked the battery up with -ve going to ground. I'm sure Steve from B&B will have 'words of wisdom'... Jay ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: Dan73
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2016 at 6:56pm
I did polarize the generator when I installed it and it has been charging I don't remember just how much but there is a good charge current showing on the amp meter. I didn't check the output voltage of the genorator. My only guess at this point is that the regulator is passing AC but I haven't tested for that. I need to get the points back in tomorrow so I can get it running again to see. Just didn't know if anyone had seen problems like this with a new regulator and a pertronix kit. |
Hubert (Ga)engine7 wrote:Posted By: Dan73
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2016 at 6:57pm
| Oh the battery will pass a load test. I think it is a couple of yeas old but I did load test it and it was fine. |
Posted By: DSeries4
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2016 at 9:32pm
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I've switched 2 tractors over to Pertronix EIs and have been tickled pink with both of them. Both have had rebuilt generators and new voltage regulators at the same time. I did also change to negative ground (easy to do), maybe that's why they have been working perfectly. I would double check that you have the unit wired up correctly. How is the wiring harness on your D15? If it is cut up and a butchered mess, that can create a lot of electrical headaches. ------------- '49 G, '54 WD45, '55 CA, '56 WD45D, '57 WD45, '58 D14, '59 D14, '60 D14, '61 D15D, '66 D15II, '66 D21II, '67 D17IV, '67 D17IVD, '67 190XTD, '73 620, '76 185, '77 175, '84 8030, '85 6080 |
Posted By: Steve in NJ
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2016 at 6:29am
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If I was a bettin' man, I'd say you have something spiking the module. Whether it be and overcharge problem, a short, bad ground, or a Battery starting to fail, something is wackin' the module. Obviously, its not the E.I. because its cookin' points also. What I would do in the meantime is send both blown modules to Pertronix for diagnosis. Let their tech crew tell you why the modules blew. While they're out getting checked, start doing some checks on the Tractor. Output from the Gennie, draw test the Battery, cleaning ALL grounds, including making sure the VR is grounded correctly. (very important) Inspect the wiring system for rub throughs on the torque tube or under sheetmetal. There is a reason why those modules popped and why that Tractor eats points for lunch. Remember, temporary loss of ground can do the same thing... Steve@B&B ------------- 39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife |
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2016 at 6:43am
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Anyone ever suggest putting a MOV( Metal Oxide Varistor ) aka 'spike protection' on the input to them Pertronix units? I used them for all my remote energy control units and 15 MILES of wire makes for a BIG antenna to capture lightning to 'sensitive' electronics.In 15 years never lost any of them. Burned out points is usually caused by too much current passing through them. Typically there's about 4 amps. Now running a coil that needs a ballast resistor without that resistor will allow a lot more current through and 'burn the points'. EI units 'frying' sounds more 'spike' related, hence my question about MOVs. Hmm. is ALL the related wiring NEW. A bad feed wire sending power to the EI unit/coil could cause them to fry if it intermittently 'opens and closes'. A crimp connector could look OK but the wire's 'loose' and when bounced around sends 'spikey/nosiey' power to the EI.You'd never 'hear' the spikes as they are too fast for you to detect,but an oscilloscope sure would. Just wondering. Jay ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: Hubert (Ga)engine7
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2016 at 8:47am
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Dan, take a look at the wiring diagram I posted on the thread about my D15 generator question. That is the way I wired mine for negative ground. Mine has the start position in the switch and not the original separate push button. There is a diagram available for that one also. But Steve be da' man on all of your electrical questions.
------------- Just an old country boy saved by the grace of God. |
Posted By: DougS
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2016 at 9:42am
If you feel like spending a little $$$ you can get a peak reading voltmeter. In my past life when I was gainfully employed I use a Fluke 89. It has "min/max" functions and it will hold the max value. In the case of voltage problems your ammeter will tell you very little. The downside is the Fluke will set you back $100 or more. |
Posted By: Sugarmaker
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2016 at 12:14pm
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Dan, You got the best AC guys looking over your shoulder. Electrical trouble shooting is not my strong point. I wish you the best. Regards, Chris ------------- D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet. |
Posted By: Brian Jasper co. Ia
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2016 at 12:43pm
------------- "Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford |
Posted By: Brian Jasper co. Ia
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2016 at 12:47pm
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Eating points as well as Ignitors, I'm going to bet charging voltage is getting too high or a bad connection in the primary circuit. You might check the coil just for kicks to verify it is in fact 3 ohms. ------------- "Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford |
Posted By: DougS
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2016 at 1:16pm
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A Fluke 113 is listed on Amazon for $105. I'm not familiar with the 113, but they claim that it does min/max. The bad news is that it is made in China. I can't vouch for the quality of this model. |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2016 at 1:17pm
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Charging voltage can go high if the battery circuit connections are poor. They do need to be cleaned every couple years, but usually affect starting before they affect charging. The battery chemistry is very good at holding voltage when charging until the battery is really overcharged (evidenced by loss of electrolyte). A generator that charges at just above engine idle with a faulty regulator or wiring will generate at least twice that voltage when the engine speed is twice the idle speed. Thinking about 800 RPM for idle charging and 1600 RPM is easily within the engine speed range. The ammeter is a good test for proper generator voltage regulation. Right after starting the charging current should be maximum, then as the battery charges in a half hour or so (depends on that maximum rate and the battery size in ampere hours) the current tapers off and in a hour or so the battery current should have tapered to zero. If the voltage regulator isn't working it won't taper. If the voltage regulator is simply too high a voltage the current won't taper. If the current doesn't taper the battery gets low on electrolyte and won't crank good and won't hold the voltage down. Burned points come from too high a current, usually from a 6 volt coil on 12 volts without a resistor to limit the current. Then usually both contacts are burned. If the condenser is bad or the wrong value, metal will migrate from one point to the other, one develops a hole and the other a point which make setting the point gap with a feeler gauge impossible. That metal migration doesn't require high current. A condenser open or way away from the proper value tends to lead to a skinny orange or yellow spark. The right condenser gives a fat blue spark at the plug. Gerald J. |
Posted By: Don(MO)
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2016 at 1:55pm
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If the coil was wired with the primary circuit to the + post of coil and the dis wire on the - post and the tractor is still using a positive ground setup you are wired backward and if you installed the pertronix the same way it's wired back-warded too. Next I'd look at the ground on the voltage reg and then test the om's on the IN wire if they are high you have a wire cut half into or a key switch going bad. You guys talking about the Fluke testers are spot on, they are good as it get's. ------------- 3 WD45's with power steering,G,D15 fork lift,D19, W-Speed Patrol, "A" Gleaner with a 330 corn head,"66" combine,roto-baler, and lots of Snap Coupler implements to make them work for their keep. |
Posted By: Dan73
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2016 at 8:54pm
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Thanks for all the replies. I do have a nice multi meter. I will dig it out and so some testing tomorrow. The more I think about it the more I wonder how the wiring to the genorator is. I have been a little under the weather with an infection in my hand the last few days it I'd getting better but between it and the antibiotics I have been pretty wiped out lately. But I can actually grip things today without the pain beings to the point where I just want to drop whatever it is. My hope is to be working on the tractor tomorrow and to get the ice and snow out of the driveway. Thanks again for the advice I know what to look for now just need to trace it all out and check the voltages. |
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 19 Feb 2016 at 6:44am
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You really should consider a 100% rewire for the tractor. Most are 50 years old,been in all kinds of weather and have had some 'interesting' electrical repairs. Over time water WILL 'wick' into the core of the wire and corrosion will eat it from the inside out the entire length of the wire. You will not see this unless you cut into it.Any time you see a 'bit of black' an inch from the end, well, you've got problems. Sure you can cut an inch or two off and it works 'fine' for awhile but sooner than later more 'weird' problems come back.You an either rewire it yourself(not that many wires) or get a kit from Steve at B&B. Either way you end up with a solid, reliable system. When guys drop off their trailers for me to work on I don't bother 'troubleshhoting' the dim-bulb-itis, just grab a NEW complete kit and install all new wiring and lights. It's faster,easier and cheaper in the long run. Jay ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |