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DiyDave 
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 Topic: Hot engine won't start?
Posted: 17 Jul 2025 at 4:43am |
 modirt wrote:
Quick update......with new replacement alternator, pulled the old one and was ready to install new........instantly ran into trouble. The lower, main support OEM alternator bracket is held in place by either two or three bolts......depending on the age and style of water pump......but that braket and the bracket to tension it is held one by only one bolt. One of 7 that holds the water pump in place. The key one.......the one that has to be used.......was found to have been snapped off inside the water pump housing. That bolt passes thru bracket, bracket, water pump, timing chain cover, then screws into the block.....and the end of it is open to coolant. So to install, a good thread sealant has to be used. No telling now many youtube videos there are documenting removal of that snapped off bolt. Now my turn to figure it out. Has been soaking in penetrating oil for days. Trying hard not to snap it off again as that would require removal of timing chain cover. Exciting times.
Next question.........I now have 3 or 4 of these long bolts out, and hopefully 4th and final is coming out with no drama. I normally would plan to chase the threads in engine block with an oiled tap before putting bolts back. Problem being my 3/8" tap appears to be damaged (won't go into a matching nut without binding) and not long enough to reach thru the timing chain cover to get to the threads in the block anyway. Might be that the nut is not made to the standard of the tap. All that means it you're cutting more thread, and that particular nut would fit a little looser...
Do they make a longer than standard tap with 4 inch or so shank? If so, what is now a good brand to buy? What I have now are Blue Point, which as I understand it was an economy line of tools sold by Snap On. I may be able to buy Irwin or Hanson locally. Anything else to consider? Try Mcmaster-carr, link below... |
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Acguywill
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Posted: 16 Jul 2025 at 11:15pm |
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If you just want to clean the threads take a grinder and cut a groove or two through the threads of a bolt that is long enough to reach. I have done lots of times. Simple cheap and don't have to worry about damaging a tap.
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modirt
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Posted: 16 Jul 2025 at 3:32pm |
As she sits now.........that big 4 belt pulley is in place of a harmonic balancer. Have no clue how that is being held in place.......and no desire to find out. But if that bolt gets snapped, I get to find out.
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modirt
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Posted: 16 Jul 2025 at 3:30pm |
Quick update......with new replacement alternator, pulled the old one and was ready to install new........instantly ran into trouble. The lower, main support OEM alternator bracket is held in place by either two or three bolts......depending on the age and style of water pump......but that braket and the bracket to tension it is held one by only one bolt. One of 7 that holds the water pump in place. The key one.......the one that has to be used.......was found to have been snapped off inside the water pump housing. That bolt passes thru bracket, bracket, water pump, timing chain cover, then screws into the block.....and the end of it is open to coolant. So to install, a good thread sealant has to be used. No telling now many youtube videos there are documenting removal of that snapped off bolt. Now my turn to figure it out. Has been soaking in penetrating oil for days. Trying hard not to snap it off again as that would require removal of timing chain cover. Exciting times.
Next question.........I now have 3 or 4 of these long bolts out, and hopefully 4th and final is coming out with no drama. I normally would plan to chase the threads in engine block with an oiled tap before putting bolts back. Problem being my 3/8" tap appears to be damaged (won't go into a matching nut without binding) and not long enough to reach thru the timing chain cover to get to the threads in the block anyway.
Do they make a longer than standard tap with 4 inch or so shank? If so, what is now a good brand to buy? What I have now are Blue Point, which as I understand it was an economy line of tools sold by Snap On. I may be able to buy Irwin or Hanson locally. Anything else to consider?
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SteveM C/IL
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Posted: 04 Jul 2025 at 10:33am |
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366 & 427 truck engines were known for no start hot and the cure was an extra solenoid on the fender or firewall but your starter is not encased in a heat zone so may not be a helpful suggestion. I'm pretty sure your engine doesn't get "tight" when hot.
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modirt
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Posted: 04 Jul 2025 at 7:31am |
As noted, this is a 318 Chrysler engine, but has none of the normal charging system.....external voltage regulator, etc........and somebody in the past rigged up an AC Delco GM style alternator with internal regulator. Rigged is an understatement. They found a way to mount wrong fit alternator to engine......big stack of washers used to get belts to align......then made a tensioning bracket......and welded it to the frame.......so belt tension varies if engine and frame do not move together.
Had this GM alternator tested to see if it was working and it was only putting out something like 30 amps. Have seen the original stickers for some Dodge D600 farm trucks from early 70's era.....same engine....and even those had 43 amp alternators.
If you don't get all the day's hay picked up before dark, and turn on the lights, the drain on battery goes way up.
Doing some research on this, they also say it is very hard on the alternator if battery ever gets really low and engine is then jump started such that alternator then has to charge a nearly dead battery. That has happened with this.
Another reason for getting the bigger 90 amp alternator installed. Hopefully it will keep up with the load and keep battery topped up all the time. Once topped up, extra capacity of bigger alternator won't matter. It only charges as needed. Seems like only way to go.
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Ed (Ont)
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Posted: 03 Jul 2025 at 9:27pm |
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Sounds good. Voltage should be about 13.6 to 14.5 with engine running so the alternator seems to be good. Or does it drop when you turn some accessories on?
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modirt
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Posted: 03 Jul 2025 at 5:37pm |
Quick update. Got the #2 battery cables installed, then put battery charger on and left it overnight. Battery needed it. Got a chance to get it all back to normal and hit starter. Volt meter went from 12 volts to 10 (had been dropping below 6 volts), engine turned over way faster than had been before and once she started, volt meter quickly climbed up to over 14.......so alternator was trying to charge. New alternator has arrived, currently waiting on mounting brackets to install it.
Also, as mentioned before, part of fuel line was lacking insulation, so that has been replaced. For first time I also noticed that the 2 or 3 inch area where the insulation was missing passed within about 2 inches or so of exhaust manifold, which is likely why it was cooked off. New high temp insulation on it now.
Old alternator is unable to keep up with any type of load, so belief is under normal operation was getting a slow battery drain. With any lights on, drain was killing the battery. Hoping new alternator fixes that. Will see.
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TedN
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Posted: 27 Jun 2025 at 10:34am |
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Fix the (now) known alternator issue, replace the cables, and see if that solves the problem. Looks like it uses an electric fan, that will speed up a little too. I think if I were working on it I would get some convoluted tubing and zip ties and get some of the wiring cleaned up a little while doing it. A few extra minutes gains quite a bit of piece of mind.
Its neat to see something like that out being used, and it works for what you are doing.
Ted
Edited by TedN - 27 Jun 2025 at 10:38am
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190XTD seriesIII, 190XTD seriesI, maroon belly 7000, 190XTD series??? project(or maybe parts)
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modirt
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Posted: 27 Jun 2025 at 8:06am |
Bad starter could be part of problem, but in this case, not from the exhaust. Open air mounting and this one has a pair of cherry bomb glass packs on duel exhaust pipes. Somebody had a sense of humor.
I added turnouts so the hot exhaust didn't hit rear tires directly.
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WF owner
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Posted: 27 Jun 2025 at 6:01am |
Probably not the same problem, but years ago (80's), I had a Chevy motorhome that never wanted to start when it was warm. The starter was very close to the exhaust. With the setback style of the engine, engine compartment heat was always a problem. I tried various attempts at heat shielding and only ever managed to make the problem worse.
A local electrical shop rebuilt the starter, and I had no more problems.
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Ed (Ont)
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Posted: 26 Jun 2025 at 9:59pm |
That sounds like good changes. Bigger battery cables should help. 30 amp alternator is not a whole bunch but a lot of alternators back in the day were in that range. Chev in the 70's were 37 amps. I plowed snow with a 77 GMC with 37 amps. We would stop in the middle of the night when the lights got so dim you could not see. Park truck and let it run and go for a coffee. Then work again!!! Lol. 
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modirt
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Posted: 26 Jun 2025 at 3:08pm |
Quick update. Pulled the battery and had it tested and they said still good. Was low on charge, but voltage output tested OK.
Battery cables were #4 and negative was grounded to the engine block. Cables corroded, so have upgraded to new #2 cables. Will install those on the existing battery. If memory serves, 725 cold cranking amps. They sell one with more CCA's that sits in same foot print. As is, the battery box is full. BTW, forgot but there is a 2nd battery box. So may have been setup to run a 2nd battery in parallel for running lights at night.
Existing alternator......one in the video......despite being large in physical size is only putting out 30 amps or so. Since it has been causing trouble anyway, new 90 amp single wire (self regulated) alternator on order. Local NAPA can make me new charging wire.........thinking #6 AWG wire to handle the loads.
Will make those changes, then see what happens.
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modirt
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Posted: 25 Jun 2025 at 9:29pm |
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Also, at end of day, parked it, then turned the key off. On a whim, tried to start and she groaned a bit, but did start and run........even when hot. Extra juice in the battery may have been a factor.
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modirt
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Posted: 25 Jun 2025 at 9:27pm |
On a hunch, put a battery charger on the battery today at 1.00. Pulled it about 5.30. It needed some charge. Started and ran, but at start, volt meter dropped way off. So tired battery, bad cables, bad connection, or all the above.
Also, watching volt meter, alternator never kicked in as it has in past. May spend some time looking for reason, but gave up on that one long time ago. Just need to get a new one and start over.
There was quite a bit of redneck engineering that had been added that is being put back to normal / original.
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modirt
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Posted: 25 Jun 2025 at 9:14pm |
Lars(wi) wrote:
Watched your video, what is the advantage of this contraption, instead of pulling a flat rack directly behind the baler? |
One advantage is I started baling today at 2 PM. It was 95 and humid. Plus had no help then. Help showed up at 6 PM when it cooled down. We put 200 bales in the barn in 2 hours, start to finish. Could have been faster if we made it in one big load. This shows front end elevated enough to stack bales 8 high, which is all we need. Could go higher.
Before finding this thing, spent some time looking for a New Holland Stackliner.......but even the smallest one needs more height to the trusses than this barn has. The other ways to haul hay all seem to be regional. I doubt there is a baler with bale thrower anywhere in MO. Some guys do stack on wagons behind the baler, but very rare. I've seen accumulators and skid loaders, but never seen one in the field.
Most common method in MO today for small squares? Crew of 4 or 5 picking them up by hand and stacking on a flatbed trailer towed by 1 ton pickup. The Amish can make it look like hay levitates onto that trailer and into the barn.
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iowallis
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Posted: 25 Jun 2025 at 4:49pm |
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I would guess battery cables and ground. Get some decent ones (4 ga minimum) and clean the connections on both ends when installing. I would also run a cable from the engine to the frame/body of the machine to insure good grounding. 2nd guess would be a bad stater despite being new.
Long shot is what happened to one of my old cars that wouldn’t start when hot. For years blamed it on vapor lock. Found out that using multi weight oil it would get too thin in my well worn engine and the cylinders couldn’t pull enough vacuum to get the gas/air mixture into the cylinder. Switched to straight weight oil (30 weight) and a bottle of STP and no hot start issues since. It is a warm weather car so no need to worry about starting in cold weather.
Edited by iowallis - 25 Jun 2025 at 4:50pm
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Lars(wi)
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Posted: 25 Jun 2025 at 3:42pm |
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Watched your video, what is the advantage of this contraption, instead of pulling a flat rack directly behind the baler?
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I tried to follow the science, but it was not there. I then followed the money, and that’s where I found the science.
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LouSWPA
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Posted: 25 Jun 2025 at 2:29pm |
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Grounding or starter would be my first suspects
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I am still confident of this;
I will see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living.
Wait for the Lord;
be strong and take heart and wait for the Lord. Ps 27
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TedN
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Posted: 25 Jun 2025 at 12:36pm |
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I watched your video and I agree that the alternator needs to be fixed, that may actually be the source of your starting issues. The belt isn't tight enough for it to put out full output. You should have about 13.5 volts at the battery when running, my guess is you are closer to 13, maybe a little less. Enough to not go dead, but not actually charged. I would still check to be sure you have good ground between engine and chassis just because of the other issues that can cause, but your alternator is only barely able to keep up as is.
Ted
Edited by TedN - 25 Jun 2025 at 12:42pm
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190XTD seriesIII, 190XTD seriesI, maroon belly 7000, 190XTD series??? project(or maybe parts)
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modirt
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Posted: 25 Jun 2025 at 12:11pm |
This is the actual contraption in question...........
This is a cleaner version.......closer to original. This one a Ford engine. Second half shows front chute/snout with elevator extension for reaching barn lofts, etc. I have the extension, but it's not working.....yet.
A couple items high on agenda to fix........one is that alternator. Somebody did some creative redneck engineering.......welded a tightener bracket to the FRAME, so belt tightens and loosens as engine moves. Have the actual Mopar/Dodge alternator brackets for the engine, but need to get a different alternator. This one is a Delco, with internal voltage regulator, but mounting holes don't fit.
A real Dodge has a voltage regular setup under the dashboard and behind the firewall. The hay monster doesn't have that.
Creative parts solution for some of this comes from Summit Racing......which have several self regulated alternator options for this engine. All high output, but if the lights are on, there is a big voltage drop........which may also be an indication the battery is weak......but existing alternator may only be 30 or 40 amp.
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Ray54
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Posted: 25 Jun 2025 at 10:50am |
modirt wrote:
Previous owner told me he was also looking for a coil, so that may help too.
Can't ever recall any farm truck.....once it was running and warmed up......not starting.
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I the good old day (1970's ) when we grew grain here we harvested from June to September (no summer rain here,why have 2 combines when one run more hours did the job). Lot of 1940' and 50's trucks hauling grain. As a teen hauling grain, one of my greatest fears was killing a truck at the elevator in town. I never had one that did not start, but a lot of cranking sometimes. Dad had a 48 and 49 Ford F6's. The 49 had a Y block transplant including automatic choke that did not have original heat shields.
But it did happen that someone got towed off the pit or scales. It was so nice my last years having my IH 1700 that has a engine that started very easy hot.
Good luck In this situation it may be blind luck that get you there first.
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TedN
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Posted: 25 Jun 2025 at 9:45am |
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I just did a search on it, that is an interesting way to pick up hay. I can see why you don't want it to not run part way through the day, you have a crew standing around unhappy. In our area the few of us that still put up hay in small bales usuall use the New Holland Harobed. My brother has a 1068 and just picked up a S1048, we put up 16x18 bales that run #90-100 in alfalfa and #75-85 in grass. I know that our area is one of the few that uses this size bale, so I find it interesting to see how it is done in other places.
Ted
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190XTD seriesIII, 190XTD seriesI, maroon belly 7000, 190XTD series??? project(or maybe parts)
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Les Kerf
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Posted: 25 Jun 2025 at 8:48am |
The first thing I check (because it is easy) is voltage drop at the battery while cranking. If the voltage barely drops but the engine barely cranks, then there is poor connectivity (corroded connections, cables too small, whatever).
If the voltage drops WAY down then either the battery has no guts or there is excessive load (dragging starter, tight engine, whatever).
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modirt
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Posted: 25 Jun 2025 at 8:46am |
I'll mention one more thing.......when we swapped out distributor cap, checked that against a firing order diagram for 318 Chrysler and concluded the distributor shaft had been put in backwards. But they they put spark plug wires on to match the order and it starts and runs.
So one thing we have not done is to check the timing. With things reversed, not sure how that would work unless #1 is #1 either way.
Have considered pulling the distributor shaft to set it right, BUT, as mounted not sure if there is enough clearance between motor and deck above it to pull it. Because it is running, decided to go with it as it. Lots of little improvements and fixes needed once hay season is over.
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modirt
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Posted: 25 Jun 2025 at 8:33am |
Hydraulics is powered by a single small pump mounted on frame in front of engine. A pto shaft runs from front pulley off crankshaft to the pump. If engine is turning, pump is pumping. Hydraulics running off the pump include a remote fan behind the radiator (runs on hydraulic motor), power steering, lift cylinders for the front snout and when loading or unloading, a hydraulic motor runs drag chains on front snout and conveyor down centerline of the bed.
To give an idea of it's purpose, couple days back driver and two stackers on the the truck picked up 150 bales from the field in 20 minutes. At barn, front snout raises up as much as 12 feet to become hay elevator. Can unload as fast as stacker guys in the barn can keep up. Or would if the driver (me) didn't screw up and kill it.
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modirt
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Posted: 25 Jun 2025 at 8:23am |
Lars(wi) wrote:
When you say ‘kill it’ are referring to stalling the engine, or turning the ignition off? |
Both of those. Biggest risk is when nudging front end into a barn with full load of 150 bales. That is nearly 4 tons of hay. Helps that transmission is geared way down, but can still be kind of exciting getting it where it needs to be without hitting anything.
Another time was when we had to shut it down to add fuel. Only made that mistake once.
Still odd that when I go out later today, she will fire right up on first turn. But if hot.......at moment of kill, can barely turn engine over with fully charged battery. Half an hour later, will turn over, but drags as if battery is on last legs. But no fire or hint of wanting to start. But once cool, fires right up.
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Codger
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Posted: 25 Jun 2025 at 6:03am |
I don't know the machine at all. Are you certain the load is declutching, or releasing from the engine when the engine is not running? You mention hydraulics and if these are not relieving pressure in the driven system immediately you are fighting system pressure with engine start. This possibly decays as time goes by allowing the engine to crank somewhat unloaded.
If certain the load is coming off of the engine when not operating, install either in series a shunt fed, or inductive clamp on ammeter and measure starting current. If you see over 800A inrush on starting current, start moving downstream first removing the starter motor and bench testing. Chrysler gear reduction starters should show about 90A inrush when bench testing with no load as example. within about two seconds taper to 30A or less.
I would agree with electrical connection integrity. I like a minimum of 2AWG from the negative battery post to both the engine block, and frame rail in a gasoline engine application. 2/0AWG in diesel applications. Land that negative lead under a starter mounting fastener is preferred and use dielectric paste to keep corrosion at bay.
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That's All Folks!
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ekjdm14
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Posted: 25 Jun 2025 at 5:59am |
Thad in AR. wrote:
I’d trust a junk yard starter muck more than a new one. It took me 4 new starters to get a good one on my work truck.
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Agreed, wouldn't surprise me at all if the new starter is failing when hot.
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Stuck Farmer
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Thad in AR.
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Posted: 25 Jun 2025 at 5:32am |
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Next time you try it and it doesn’t want to turn over quickly grab rack battery cable. If one feels hot it’s either bad or not making a good connection.
Could be a bad starter.
I’d trust a junk yard starter muck more than a new one. It took me 4 new starters to get a good one on my work truck.
As mentioned before check timing.
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