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Ford FE intake: Iron vs Aluminum?

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DMiller View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Nov 2022 at 6:18pm
Guy I received the KW From is onto GM Racing engines, was explaining the other day, has a 1000hp balanced and blueprinted engine for a truck he wants to build, has almost as much in it as I have IN TOTAL in the KW.  Dropped $10k ADDITIONAL to what already had In It, on it in a month and that is JUST the engine.
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Ed (Ont) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ed (Ont) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Nov 2022 at 6:37pm
Holley has all the right kickdoown brackets for Chev, Ford and Mopar. Just tell them what application you have.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote im4racin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Nov 2022 at 8:05pm
Since you are this far in I would recommend a Holley sniper efi.  It’s a little spendy but well worth it
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote plummerscarin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Nov 2022 at 9:08pm
Originally posted by IBWD MIke IBWD MIke wrote:

I always liked Holley's when I was in the 'Hot Rod' phase of my life. Easy to tune and somehow I never had the power valve trouble people talk about.

Also had a Holley on my 390 in the Cyclone. A 750 double pumper. 0 trouble and pegged the speedo a couple times
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Thad in AR. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thad in AR. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 2022 at 7:03am
May have found you a crank, forged pistons and an intake. Will know in a couple days.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jvin248 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 2022 at 12:48pm
.

How smooth are the flow passages in those two manifolds?
That will change performance.

As far as the carb selection... See what this guy did.
He has a whole series on this build, a lawnmower carb on a V8, the trick was an electronic controller. It's fun and check the channel series.

.


Edited by jvin248 - 26 Nov 2022 at 12:50pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CrestonM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2022 at 12:15am
Originally posted by exSW exSW wrote:

Unless you want to become a Holley guru use an Edelbrock.  I've run an 390/four speed/ 4.10  F-350 in daily farm use and that Holley was a constant issue. Edelbrocks are set it and forget it carbs. I've slso used several Edelbrock alumnium intakes on farm trucks with zero issues.
I think for sure I'm going to upgrade to the Edelbrock Performer aluminum intake. Unless I find a good 4 barrel iron intake locally for a low price. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CrestonM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2022 at 12:18am
Originally posted by dp7000 dp7000 wrote:

Edelbrock carbs are good. Trouble free. I’ve got a couple. #1407 or 1408 I think. Probably best cost effective way to go.
Been looking at a 1406. It's 600 cfm vs the 1407 at 750 cfm. I think for my application the 600 might be more appropriate, but I'm not sure on that. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CrestonM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2022 at 12:20am
Originally posted by PaulB PaulB wrote:

The question that keeps coming to mind for me is: "You think a FORD can get good fuel mileage in any fashion?".  
Haha no I don't think it will, I just want to try to get the "best possible for my budget". I know it's probably not going to be "good".


Edited by CrestonM - 27 Nov 2022 at 12:45am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CrestonM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2022 at 12:21am
Originally posted by Thad in AR. Thad in AR. wrote:

I have an Edelbrock on my 351 Windsor.
It’s electric choke and starts and runs like an EFI.
That said it just doesn’t seem right. I’ve changed a few things and got it better but still not good.
The low end was much better with a 2100 2 barrel.
I’ll be switching back.
I wonder why that would be? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CrestonM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2022 at 12:26am
Originally posted by plummerscarin plummerscarin wrote:

Originally posted by IBWD MIke IBWD MIke wrote:

I always liked Holley's when I was in the 'Hot Rod' phase of my life. Easy to tune and somehow I never had the power valve trouble people talk about.

Also had a Holley on my 390 in the Cyclone. A 750 double pumper. 0 trouble and pegged the speedo a couple times
Right now I'm debating whether I want a double pumper or vacuum secondaries. I hear good and bad about both. Good to know you like it!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CrestonM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2022 at 12:44am
Thank you everyone for the replies. All of my dealings with carburetors till now have been tractor carburetors and a one barrel Rochester on a 1951 Chevrolet. So I'm still trying to learn about these 2 and 4 barrels, as they seem to be totally different animals. 
In my research, I think I've narrowed it down to these Edelbrock and a Holley models.

Edelbrock 1405 with manual choke:

Edelbrock 1406 with electric choke: 

Holley 1850 with manual choke:

Holley with electric choke:

Also the GM EFI throttle body Dave mentioned:


It seems the Holley vs Edelbrock debate is about like the Ford vs GM vs Mopar debate. I think each has their good and bad qualities, although I'm tending to lean toward the Edelbrock. Would it be bad to choose a manual choke? I'm used to using them on all my gas tractors and that 1951 Chevrolet, so it seems like this wouldn't be much different. Is the electric choke as simple as running a power wire from the key switch? I understand we've made a lot of improvements to technology over the last 50 years, but at the end of the day, I like to keep things fairly straightforward and simple. 
Should 600 cfm be adequate for a mostly stock 390? 

A question about the secondaries...the Holleys have vacuum and I think the Edelbrocks are mechanical. What are the reasons to choose one over the other? 
Thanks!


Edited by CrestonM - 27 Nov 2022 at 12:48am
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Ed (Ont) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ed (Ont) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2022 at 8:03am
Creston the Holley is available with either vacuum secondary or mechanical secondary. Your choice. That 1850 you are looking at would do a good job. For what you are doing I would go with vacuum secondary. You can also get different springs from Holley to get secondary to come in faster or slower although usually the stock one is good. Keep in mind that Ford used Holleys on their heavier trucks back in  the day. The 1850 you are looking is vacuum secondary operated by that little pot on the right side. Oh and electric choke is great - one hot wire to hook up. Manual would work for you as well. You won't need choke much down there. A bit in your cold months.
There have been a lot of totally different opinions here. Hope we did not make it more difficult for you. Whatever you do stick to vacuum secondary for that truck application. All these heavier truck applications came that way for good reasons. Smile


Edited by Ed (Ont) - 27 Nov 2022 at 8:12am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thad in AR. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2022 at 8:13am
You’ll see absolutely no gains of a 4 barrel at low rpm.
Edelbrocks are known for a dead spot. It can be remedied but takes time and money.
Machine shop is supposed to get back with me again early next week.
He thinks he has a crank, pistons clock and 4 barrel intake. I didn’t ask what the intake was?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ed (Ont) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2022 at 8:19am
[QUOTE=Thad in AR.]You’ll see absolutely no gains of a 4 barrel at low rpm.
Edelbrocks are known for a dead spot. It can be remedied but takes time and money.
Machine shop is supposed to get back with me again early next week.
He thinks he has a crank, pistons clock and 4 barrel intake. I didn’t ask what the intake was?
That is correct Thad. And they are not supposed to and no one is claiming that. The vacuum sec carb runs on the two front barrels only until the rears are pulled open as needed at higher rpm only. That is beauty of the Holley vacuum 4 barrel.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AC7060IL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2022 at 8:36am
Creston, I think it’s awesome that your restoring an antique pickup. Like most items manufactured during that era, they hold some great craftsmanship. Congratulations!
Today’s technologies are more abundant, but may not always be quality oriented. Is product built in USA? Mexico? China? How does product reviews rate?

In my past restoration projects, I’ve had the most rewarding results/ satisfaction when I call the companies (like the ones you’re listied/interested in possibly purchasing their products) and visit with their technical support people.
Communicate every detail about your 1965 f250’s original equipment, your build ideas, and then allow them an opportunity to respond.

Allow them multiple visits. Welcome follow up about additional questions/concerns. Also accept multiple representatives to voice their perspectives, not just one person.

Through the process it usually becomes vividly apparent which company to work with & which of their products to use.

Best of luck. If possible, please share some photos ~ before/during/after.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ed (Ont) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2022 at 9:10am
Creston check out part number 0-80783C at Summit. That is 650 cfm 4150 series carb. That is their classic performance carb. $643. That carb has some significant advantages over the 1850. Dual fuel inlets, adjustable floats front and rear and small window in float bowl so you can see fuel level, electric or manual choke. 650 would be a good size for almost 400 cid. Or if you want more same unit is available in 750 cfm for less money. I guess they sell more of those. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thad in AR. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2022 at 12:53pm
Originally posted by Ed (Ont) Ed (Ont) wrote:

[QUOTE=Thad in AR.]You’ll see absolutely no gains of a 4 barrel at low rpm.
Edelbrocks are known for a dead spot. It can be remedied but takes time and money.
Machine shop is supposed to get back with me again early next week.
He thinks he has a crank, pistons clock and 4 barrel intake. I didn’t ask what the intake was?
That is correct Thad. And they are not supposed to and no one is claiming that. The vacuum sec carb runs on the two front barrels only until the rears are pulled open as needed at higher rpm only. That is beauty of the Holley vacuum 4 barrel.

I raced Stock cars for 34 years. I got to know a little about Holley carbs.
I’ve also owned over 75 Ford Fe engines in various trucks and learned a little about them along the way.
Not trying to be a smart Alec.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ed (Ont) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2022 at 3:15pm
Originally posted by Thad in AR. Thad in AR. wrote:

Originally posted by Ed (Ont) Ed (Ont) wrote:

[QUOTE=Thad in AR.]You’ll see absolutely no gains of a 4 barrel at low rpm.
Edelbrocks are known for a dead spot. It can be remedied but takes time and money.
Machine shop is supposed to get back with me again early next week.
He thinks he has a crank, pistons clock and 4 barrel intake. I didn’t ask what the intake was?
That is correct Thad. And they are not supposed to and no one is claiming that. The vacuum sec carb runs on the two front barrels only until the rears are pulled open as needed at higher rpm only. That is beauty of the Holley vacuum 4 barrel.

I raced Stock cars for 34 years. I got to know a little about Holley carbs.
I’ve also owned over 75 Ford Fe engines in various trucks and learned a little about them along the way.
Not trying to be a smart Alec.

Yes and I did not say or infer that. Just trying to help Creston make a decision but I think he is overloaded now. Smile My first car was 1959 Ford with that engine (332 cu in). It had 2 barrel carb but I can't remember which carb. I put a 4 barrel intake and small Holley vacuum sec.4 barrel on it. Drove it for several years. Really worked nice.


Edited by Ed (Ont) - 28 Nov 2022 at 8:04am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote CrestonM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 2022 at 4:15pm
Well, overloaded is a pretty accurate word, but I think I’m slowly getting it figured out. One thing I’m still thinking of is the exhaust crossover. Can someone explain what that is? I read about it on Ford forums and some people delete it, but I don’t know what it is.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thad in AR. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 2022 at 4:45pm
Originally posted by CrestonM CrestonM wrote:

Well, overloaded is a pretty accurate word, but I think I’m slowly getting it figured out. One thing I’m still thinking of is the exhaust crossover. Can someone explain what that is? I read about it on Ford forums and some people delete it, but I don’t know what it is.

Don’t know of an exhaust crossover on fe motors??
The y-blocks had a cross over.
Where is it located?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 2022 at 5:05pm
FE series did not have, EGR was Ported of a Ex Manifold on later model installs.  X-over was a easy source of heat to vaporize mixture for better combustion, GM used it for decades. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CrestonM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 2022 at 10:09pm
Originally posted by Thad in AR. Thad in AR. wrote:

Originally posted by CrestonM CrestonM wrote:

Well, overloaded is a pretty accurate word, but I think I’m slowly getting it figured out. One thing I’m still thinking of is the exhaust crossover. Can someone explain what that is? I read about it on Ford forums and some people delete it, but I don’t know what it is.

Don’t know of an exhaust crossover on fe motors??
The y-blocks had a cross over.
Where is it located?
That's what I don't know. I read about it several places. This link is what came up first after searching "Ford FE Exhaust Crossover". All the sites say to block them off if using an aluminum intake, but thought I'd ask here. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thad in AR. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2022 at 2:03am
Sorry I was thinking exhaust pipe.
They make gas kits that block this off. If you buy an aluminum intake you can weld the ports shut.
I’ve made block off out of heavy tin before.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AC7060IL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2022 at 7:47am
Mopars used a cross over exhaust too. Yes per an earlier post about fuel atomization, plus it assisted with quicker release of automatic chokes.
I don’t know about Ford’s cross-over, but the mopars had a tendency to “carbon close” as passage was narrow where head connected to intake. They’d carbon close so tight that a hammer & chisel would be required to clean them open.

Edited by AC7060IL - 29 Nov 2022 at 7:47am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve in NJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2022 at 2:33pm
Okay, so everybody has their own opinion on this so I'll give you my experience with this stuff being I've been a hotrodder for 60+ years and still into it. Four barrels are much better than two barrels on larger engines because of better fuel mix or charge to each cylinder. Also, a lot has to do with the intake manifold used as Ed mentioned. Being I'm a Chevy guy, I always worked on the Carter AFB's & Q-jets although I have some Fords in my corral as well and worked on many Holleys and Autolites over the years when I had the Auto repair shop. The Q-jet always took a bad rap all the time (like the Powerglide trans) because if you weren't used to working on that particular Carb, you had problems. That Carb is one of the best designed Carbs ever made in my opinion. In front, you have the small throttle blades for low speed driving and excellent mileage. Out back, (depending on the cfm size) you had two trash can lids for secondaries. Set up correctly, when you stuck your big toe into those secondaries, with the engine set up right, you wouldn't need seat belts cause the crack of yer' ass is mashed in the seat! The problem with the Q-jet is it's not real easy to adapt to some applications without some fabricating. I actually adapted a Q-jet to a Dodge Police cruiser and it worked great. But, that's another story.

Now, let's talk about Holleys. Personally, I hate Holleys for the street. Not because they aren't a good performance Carburetor, its because of other stupid issues they have like metering block gaskets leaking puddling up fuel in the intake manifold. Nice setup for a fire if you aren't aware or didn't lift the hood, if the car or truck sat for a while before you got your butt in it to take it for a ride or use it for chores. I ran Holleys on my Drag car for a while and they worked well. Lots of adjustability for racing, till I moved to Hilborn Injection which is a whole other thing. If you had a Holley on your street car that was a tick on the lean side, or if the electric choke kicked off a little to soon and it popped back through the Carb, (one of the guys mentioned blowing out power valves) Yup! another PIA!  Remove the right lower screw, drain the fuel bowl, change out the power valve AND metering block gasket. (again)

The Edelbrock carb is an upgraded Carter AFB. They're simple, quite easy to work on, & work quite well on pretty much anything, BUT you do have to "dial" them in. Edelbrock's design in the metering rod department made them even easier to work on along with a lot of new bracketry they came up with to hook to the trans. Just like our Tractors, all engines are different, so it's rare you get a "drop on" outta' the box Carb.  Two of my hotrods have Edelbrocks on them along with their intakes, and with a little "dialing in" they work sweet. I did try a Demon Carburetor on Jo Jo's 55' T-bird, and being that was a little bit different and a newer design to me, once I learned how to adjust it by reading the booklet, (similar to others) it's worked flawlessly on the stock 292. 

Sooo, after all of that, I would say for your application Creston, I would call Edelbrock tech, tell them exactly what you have,  and ask them what they recommend for your application. They did all the R&D and dyno work for all of us, for all combinations. They would be the one's to ask as far as induction is concerned. Dual exhaust is also a plus in most applications, but they can also probably can steer you in the right direction in that department too, along with what to run for exhaust and camshaft profile....... Good luck man!  Hope this project works great for ya!
Steve@B&B 
39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote darrel in ND Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2022 at 2:50pm
Very interesting stuff, Steve. Guess that after reading that, my adapting a Q jet to my ford wasn't the dumbest idea I ever had. I had excellent results with it. Thanks. Darrel
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve in NJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Nov 2022 at 11:31am
The engineers at Rochester had their thinking caps on wit' that one! Experimenting over the years with that particular Carburetor used with a one inch Carb spacer for a little more plenum area, netted great results on a lot of different engines that I worked on in mileage as well as torque & power.  With some Carb tuning secrets from Val Headworth, a little jetting, a little timing and hold on!   LOL!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NEVER green Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Nov 2022 at 3:24pm
  I have heard the Q- jets main down fall is they vapor lock because they dont have big enough fuel bowls, did you ever have that issue?
2-8050 1-7080 6080 D-19 modelE & A 7040   R50       
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ed (Ont) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Nov 2022 at 5:03pm
I had a few vehicles with Q-jets. Worked very well in all conditions. Had a 77 Gm pickup that we plowed snow with in all kinds of severe weather. Never missed a beat, started and ran well always. Never had any vapour locks. Neat thing about them the rear throttle plates were mechanical but the top plates were vacuum. As they started opening then the extra air/fuel was added. GM engineers knew what they were doing. Smile
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