pulling 426 twin turbos
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Forum Name: Pulling Forum
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URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=59939
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Topic: pulling 426 twin turbos
Posted By: ralph cooley
Subject: pulling 426 twin turbos
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2012 at 1:59pm
| has or does anyone know of the twin turbo option allis offered on 7000 series for tractor pulling |
Replies:
Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2012 at 2:33pm
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Just like BigFoot! It's a myth! ------------- 210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers! |
Posted By: ralph cooley
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2012 at 2:35pm
| found the post on fullpull.com |
Posted By: richfarmsystem
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2012 at 2:46pm
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I saw bigfoot in grade school...crushing cars in mendota |
Posted By: DougG
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2012 at 3:15pm
| No its for real, i have a NTPA magizine that has Noble Harrison going to Harvey Engine Works picking up a 426 with twins ,AC engineers actually set it up they put it in a 220 in early 70 ; but i believe AC quit shortly after that , product libility laws etc |
Posted By: AaronSEIA
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2012 at 3:33pm
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I spoke with a guy once who pulled a D21 back in the 70's and said AC was supplying him with tranny gears, etc. Sounds like pulling in the 70's was a lot like NASCAR in the 70's. Win on Sunday, sell on Monday. AaronSEIA
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Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2012 at 4:24pm
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AC may have been working with some pullers, but twin/compound turbos weren't considered an "option". ------------- 210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers! |
Posted By: allis 7045
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2012 at 4:28pm
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i seen a 200 with twin turbos. im buy a xt190 and setting up there custom with and aftermarket intercooler to provide sufficent needs for the twin turbos ------------- ac 170, 2 ac 6080's, ac 7045,gleaner k, gleaner l2. all going strong |
Posted By: Chris/CT
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2012 at 4:39pm
| Bob Raycrafts D-21, Mama's Throughbred was twin turbo'd, he had many wins withb that puller. He had spent alot of time out in the Allis plant with the appropriate people to get the info he needed to build pullers. |
Posted By: Cal
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2012 at 4:51pm
| Wow Chris Theres a name from the past Bob Raycraft. I went up to his place in NY in the early 80s to pick up a 917 in the crate that we had sold, he was working on the D21 then and stopped to talk to me areal nice guy. He let me look through his AC junkyard outback. As luck would have it I broke the welded up frontend on my D17 aweek later and he sold me one of a tractor. Thanks Chris. Cal in Ct |
Posted By: ralph cooley
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2012 at 5:04pm
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he olny lived 20 minutes from me. he was very helpfull with my 220 . but his time cane to a tragic loss . i always think of him when i look out my window and see my pair of 220. i realy would like to get any pictures ect that any one has of the twin turbos .
near the end of bobs pulling he ran tripple toubos and flitred with 4 turbos.
long rest my old friend !!
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Posted By: Chris/CT
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2012 at 7:28pm
| Ralph, You have corrected me, It was tripple turbo'd. I miss him to, we use to talk in the evening's all the time. I have 1 nice 8.5 X 11 color photo he sent me of him pulling, I have posted it here before. I'm sure he's keepin' eye on us AC guy's. |
Posted By: ralph cooley
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2012 at 7:51pm
| chris hope you survied sandy . alot of are local fire men are rotating 72 hour shifts to nassau county . |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2012 at 8:17pm
| I know in the early to mid-70's all the A-C Pulling Parts had to be purchased thru (Noble)Harrison Equipment in Pittsfield, Illinois who was an AC dealer at the time. The parts were made by A-C but sold to Noble to be retailed to pullers. They had injector tips with odd part numbers on them and fast 3rd gears for the 180's and 190's, etc. Noble built the cogged belt injection pump drives I believe, to mount the big "P" series Bosch pump on the AC engines. As far as I'm concerned, he is the Father of staged turbochargers on diesel pulling tractors. As far as a Kit for twin-chargers, I'd say they came from Harrison himself as there's quite a bit of plumbing that goes with the turbos to stage them. |
Posted By: Brian F(IL)
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2012 at 8:14am
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My Dad pulled a Two-Twenty the summer of 1972. It was from his (and my uncle's) AC dealership. They were always experimenting with different set-ups. Towards the end of the summer they were using two turbos. If my memory serves me correctly, they had an 8" Air Research turbo blowing into a 3" Air Research turbo. Sounds strange, I know.
I also remember they had a stainless steel box in the air intake system that was filled with dry ice to cool the air prior to going into the intake, etc. Again, sounds strange, I know.
I'm not aware they got any parts from Noble Harrison in Pittsfield but it's possible. Many parts came from Harvey, IL. I also remember them going to the south side of Chicago to get turbos from the Mack truck parts depot.
I've got to find some old pictures...
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Posted By: tbran
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2012 at 2:30pm
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Noble Harrison (H&R) and Ed Elgin a retired AC service rep - (huge hands - anyone who shook hands with him will remember him ) set up a lot of pulling tractors around 1970-72. AC DID give him some Dyno time and help. I am sure Terry Wood was there at this time. AC did not sell kits although they DID dyno many engines with twin turbos as a way of determinine accelerated breakdown testing. Running the engines at 110% + load for a time gave the same results as 80% load for half the dyno time. I did see a twin turbo engine on the dock at West Allis that was to be installed and headed for the proving grounds. (a lot of test tractors used 555 cummins held over from the 440's for testing as Harvey's engines were charged out to the tractor division a very high dollars- one down fall of AC - the engine division didn't play well with others in AC) After a year there was an incompetent puller who could never get his unit to run (harrisons belt drive - he ran 180 out of time ) so therefore he accused AC of giving the winners the best parts and not him. Word came down - no more corporate pulling help. That was the end. Interestingly it was smoke reduction efforts on engines in bull dozers used in the military that led to Harrisons "light bulb coming on" when he saw the 2 stage pressure sysytem on a dyno at Harvey while picking up some 'parts'. Edgar Paschall purchased
a spare 'floating head roosa' , cheater turbo (TO6) , fuel pump belt drive system, 426 intercooler and adaptor plate for a 301 , dual disc clutch and special tips that came in a AC parts box labeled 'exp' on the box I inherited and passed on to other pullers , so I saw these things first hand.
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Posted By: DarrylinWA
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2012 at 9:48pm
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I was waiting for you to say something Tim. Thanks for sharing.  ------------- B 10 Custom. Serial # 1001 D21, First D21 built 69 #4498 and Last D 21 Built #4609. 1946 MM UTU. And 2000, 2005 Pete's. AC custom Hauling. |
Posted By: ralph cooley
Date Posted: 14 Nov 2012 at 5:25am
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All you guys help has been great would like to see any pictures you have. thanks ralph |
Posted By: NDH
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2014 at 2:18am
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We worked only on Rosa Master fuel injection pumps. Dad never sold twin-stage turbo setups but consulted with and sold to nearly every AC puller in the US and Canada beginning around 1970. On the twin-stage setup air came through a large Switzer turbo, went through an air-to-air intercooler mounted in front of the radiator and back into an AirResearch turbo and then into the intake manifold. -Noble D. Harrison II ("N.D.")
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Posted By: NDH
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2014 at 7:12am
| Actually I mis-spoke in my previous posting. While I worked with Dad, through college, I worked only on Roosa Master fuel injection pumps. Dad and Ed may have set up AC tractors with Bosch pumps after 1972, I'm really not sure. - N.D. Harrison |
Posted By: Brian F(IL)
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2014 at 9:34am
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N.D., Nice to see that you have joined the AC Forum. Welcome! I'll look for some pictures from 1972 but they may be hard to find. Brian F(IL)
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Posted By: Big Orange
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2014 at 10:12am
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N.D., Like Brian said, It's great to have you on the AC forum. Stoney (MO.)
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Posted By: Butch(OH)
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2014 at 10:21am
| I really like reading the posts from that era of pulling. Local A-C hot dog was Bob Williams from Groveport who pulled the Double Trouble D-21. We would find out where he was pulling and traveled a bit to watch him win(usually) I am pretty sure that same tractor was later purchased and pulled by Max Simpson? |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2014 at 12:45pm
| There were in-line Bosch "P" pumps in the 70's. They had a cogged belt drive on them that moved the injection pump out over the right side frame. I was always told it was a Harrison set-up. |
Posted By: Larry W.
Date Posted: 22 Oct 2014 at 10:03pm
| Yes the belt drives where Noble's settup. Heck there is one still pulling in Minnesota on the NTPA state circuit! The old style 426 blocks didn't have enough room for the P pump without moving it away from the block. |
Posted By: NDH
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2014 at 10:33pm
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I am Noble Harrison's son and worked in my Dad's AC dealership in Pittsfield, Illinois until I graduated from college in 1973 and set up my CPA practice. Dad sold his AC dealership in 1974. He and Ed Elgin (an AC service rep who lived in Louisiana, MO (20 miles from Pittsfield)) continued working on AC pulling tractors in a garage behind Dad's house until (I'm guessing) around 1982. After thinking some more and talking to Benny McKinnon, a long-time puller from Pleasant Hill, Illinois, I can add something to the conversations about AC pulling in that era. Around 1973 Dad and Ed began switching their focus from Roosa Master pumps to Bosch pumps. They designed and built a box to move Bosch pumps away from the engine block. The pumps were cog belt driven. They also designed and set up twin turbo systems and they sold these to many AC pullers. They used AirResearch turbos, the small one was an "8" and the large one a "90" (according to McKinnon). They also set up triple turboed systems where there was no "Y" - the air was pressurized 3 times. They also sold this to AC pullers. They did one 4 turbo set up but there was a "Y", so this was also a triple pressurized setup. McKinnon thinks a local machine shop prepared tubing for the multiple staged turbo setups. The shop is out of business, but I know the owner and I'll try to find out in the next few days about the tubing and intercooling. -N.D. Harrison, Pittsfield, Illinois
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Posted By: DougG
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2014 at 5:03am
| Thanks for the info and stories , ND , who bought your Dads dealership ? Wasn't that one of the biggest in the US ? I bet they had a blast designing / building that stuff for the pulling machines |
Posted By: NDH
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2014 at 9:58am
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I'll do a quick reply to my Dad's dealership and finish tonight on info related to setting up AC pulling tractors. Noble Harrison was born in 1918 in Bethel, MO. After finishing high school he went to work in his uncle (Walter Harrison's) dealership "Harrison Motor Company" in Hannibal, MO (35 miles from Pittsfield, IL). I believe they sold Hudson autos at the time. Walter Harrison financed Dad to set up a dealership. He sold Hudson auto (and I believe Indian motorcycles) for a time. (It was hard to get product to sell right after WWII.) Walter Harrison switched to Minneapolis Moline farm equipment for a few years. Around 1950 Walter switched to Allis-Chalmers and Dad switched about the same time. In the mid-1950's Dad was one of the largest AC dealers in the US and AC funded a large extravaganza with well-known country singers, dinner, dance, AC corporate executives, etc. Dad got interested in tractor pulling around 1966. We went to a tractor pull in (I believe) Keokuk IA with Gus Long, his chief mechanic. We played around with souping up a tractor or two and Dad decided to try to get help from AC's engine works in Harvey, IL. Dad got to know the engineers there and they provided 3 pulling "kits" for D-21s. I drove a tractor with 1 kit, Herb McKinnon got 1 kit and Doug Cox (AC dealer in Pleasant Hill) got 1 kit. That was around 1968. Then AC decided to build a super engine, the one I described in this forum earlier, with 2 turbos (Switzer and AirResearch), an air-to-air intercooler and a limited production fuel injecton pump. I'll finish later, possible tonight.
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Posted By: worldchamp19
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2014 at 8:54pm
| Very interesting story and I want to hear more. I want to say that I remember Benny McKinnon and I his brother pulling D-21's and the famous Old Faithful, when Old Faithful came to a pull everyone else was pulling for second place. |
Posted By: NDH
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2014 at 10:03pm
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I'll tell a little more about Noble Harrison's (my Dad) involvement with tractor pulling. The AC 220 with twin turbos was the first pulling tractor anywhere with twin turbos where the air was pressurized twice. After pulling the 220 for a couple of years, Dad talked AC into setting up a torque converter for the tractor. AC was very experienced with torque converters as they had a lot of experience manufacturing bulldozers. AC shipped a torque converter to us in 1971(?). The torque converter was delivered to us in a housing that replaced the housing around the clutch area. There was no clutch. To put the tractor into gear I would step on the clutch pedal. But instead of going to a clutch, the clutch pedal was connected to a brake on the rear of the torque converter. The brake stopped the rear of the torque converter and allowed the gears to be shifted. The first torque converter they shipped us was a 16". We tried it out around the shop and learned it was a poor match for the engine. No matter how gradually we moved the throttle, the engine wouldn't gain many RPMs before it would choke out with fuel. That torque converter was just too big for the engine. So AC replaced the 16" torque converter with a 14". That was small enough to allow us to get RPMs. The torque converter housing was 6"' or 8" longer than the standard clutch housing. After the sanctioning bodies realized that we had lengthened the wheelbase, they made us pull in the hot rod class. But the hot rods were too strong for us to compete against. I remember well the 1st time I pulled the tractor with the torque converter. It was at a pull at Bowling Green Missouri. I got to the line to pull, tightened the chain and waited for the flagman to wave me down the track. When I got the green flag I began giving the engine more and more throttle - very gradually to keep the engine from bogging down with fuel. It took probably 20 or 30 seconds before I started to move the sled. As the engine was gaining RPMs the people nearby who knew anything about mechanics thought I was slipping the clutch. After about 10 seconds of gradually increasing the RPMs people began moving back and they were desperately scrambling away by the time the sled actually moved. I'm sure they thought the clutch was going to explode the way they thought I was abusing it. I did a full pull and the operator on the mechanical sled said that was the smoothest pull he had ever experienced. I'll post more about the more traditional things we did in a few days. -N.D. Harrison
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Posted By: NDH
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2014 at 10:14pm
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To answer a question posted by DougG a couple of weeks ago: the person who purchased my Dad's AC dealership was Doug Cox. This happened in 1973 or 1974. Cox and my Dad had been in an AC dealer partnership in Pleasant Hill, Illinois. That dealership was named Harrison and Cox. This partnership in Pleasant Hill was the only other AC dealership my Dad had ownership in besides his original dealership in Pittsfield. Dad's uncle, Walter Harrison (who I mentioned in an earlier post), had an AC dealership in Hannibal Missouri. That dealership was named Harrison Motor Company. Dad's dealership was named Harrison Implement Company. Then, after he sold the dealership, he continued building high-performance AC pulling engines under the name Harrison Engines, Inc.
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Posted By: DarrylinWA
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2014 at 8:34am
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WOW!!!! This is priceless. Thank you so much for sharing this info on here. Darryl Krause Lynden WA. ------------- B 10 Custom. Serial # 1001 D21, First D21 built 69 #4498 and Last D 21 Built #4609. 1946 MM UTU. And 2000, 2005 Pete's. AC custom Hauling. |
Posted By: DougG
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2014 at 12:04pm
| Yeah this is great info , thanks !! |
Posted By: Ronnie
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2014 at 1:31pm
| Ndh I realy injoy reading ur posts . |
Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2014 at 1:59pm
| I enjoy this too. It's a shame that it wasn't in a new post because I bet a lot of people that would enjoy this, are missing it. |
Posted By: Ronnie
Date Posted: 23 Nov 2014 at 6:59pm
| Ok is any one else having problems with this posting I got 3 email that Outher people had posted things and minexpensive is not showing any new posts |
Posted By: Ronnie
Date Posted: 23 Nov 2014 at 7:00pm
| And of corse now it shows up |
Posted By: NDH
Date Posted: 26 Nov 2014 at 10:53pm
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In an earlier post I mentioned 3 "kits" that AC provided Noble Harrison (my Dad) with. Those kits originally consisted of larger injector nozzles, larger fuel lines and a larger turbo. The 3 tractors pulled successfully in 1968. In 1969 and 1970 additional modifications were made to the 426 c.i. engines. A standard D21 weighs over 9000 lb with no driver and no fuel. We wanted to pull our D21 in the 9000 lb class and we wanted to be able to optimize front to rear weight distribution to match track conditions. We stripped or rebuilt unnecessary parts to lighten the tractor but that didn't leave us with enough weight to move. Then Dad focused on the cast iron front axle support. He hired O.B. Dell Welding in Pittsfield to create a steel frame front axle support covered with sheet steel shaped like the original part. I painted the support with a coat of thick orange paint. After the paint partially dried I threw sand on it. After the paint completely dried I lightly sanded it and painted it again. I repeated these steps several times over a period of a week and ended up with a front end that looked just like cast iron. This took at least 250 lb off the front end and allowed us to move more weight front to back. It took competitors quite a while to figure out how we could run more weights than they could. Finally one of them knocked on the "cast iron" front axle support and realized it was hollow so our secret was out. Tractor pullers in the late 1960's and very early 1970's used "torque toppers". A torque topper was activated by a toggle switch that injected propane into the intake manifold. Flipping the switch would instantly clear the heavy diesel smoke and provide a horsepower boost. I believe these were first used by truckers to give them an extra boost going over mountains. Predictably, this got dangerous as pullers began injecting too much propane and occasionally exploding an engine. They were outlawed in the early 1970's by a rule prohibiting tractors from using pressurized tanks, except in tractors using propane exclusively. I'll post more over the next few weeks as time allows. - N.D. Harrison
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Posted By: DougG
Date Posted: 27 Nov 2014 at 4:47am
| I bet the first guy who injected too much propane and blew it up eyes got big! |
Posted By: David (in Mi.)
Date Posted: 27 Nov 2014 at 7:12am
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Enjoying this stuff. I used to pull tractors on not as big of scale as you guys are talking about, but remember the late 60's and early 70's I had a JD 4020 with turbo like a lot of others had and was running like most others about 120 to 150 hp with a roosa-master pump until we discovered that a 5020 pump would help, then we added an LP regulator that we could control, and boosted our power to the 250 hp range. Now let me tell you that in a small town pull like we had in our neighbor hood we were pretty big shots. I was born on AC equipment, still have my dad's 1955 WD 45 diesel, and don't want you all to jump all over me for talking about green. Hope you all enjoy this topic like I do. |
Posted By: Hudsonator
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2014 at 11:20am
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These stories are too cool! Hudson autos, Indian Motorcycles, and ALLIS CHALMERS! It doesn't get any better than that (in my opinion). ------------- There isn't much a WC can't do. WD's just do it better. |
Posted By: Beirnesy
Date Posted: 10 May 2015 at 7:16am
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The May 2015 NTPA PULLER Magazine has a article on the Harrisons: http://shop.ntpapull.com/publications/puller-magazine-archives?product_id=435" rel="nofollow - http://shop.ntpapull.com/publications/puller-magazine-archives?product_id=435 Here is a face book link to the article https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1595181060728476&set=gm.818681878226130&type=1&theater" rel="nofollow - https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1595181060728476&set=gm.818681878226130&type=1&theater ------------- 1969 220,1967 190DXT,1968 190DXT, LGT's 710,,716 |
Posted By: DougG
Date Posted: 10 May 2015 at 8:48am
| Thanks for this, seen it last night on FB too |