"Big Al" truck engines
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=21671
Printed Date: 25 Apr 2024 at 8:52am
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Topic: "Big Al" truck engines
Posted By: Matt (Jordan,MN)
Subject: "Big Al" truck engines
Date Posted: 02 Dec 2010 at 1:11pm
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Just passing on some info here. I got my new issue of the "wheels Of Time" magizine and there is a 4 page atricle on "Big al" Allis truck engines. It is a very interesting read. For those of you that are not ATHS ( Antique Truck Historical Society) members and don't get the magizine, You can get it tractor supply.
Matt
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Replies:
Posted By: Brad MI
Date Posted: 02 Dec 2010 at 1:14pm
| I have a couple brochures on them, pretty interesting what AC accomplished. |
Posted By: Coke-in-MN
Date Posted: 02 Dec 2010 at 2:19pm
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Saved a site that had the pictures and articles on that engine , someone posted a link on old form and i did a save, just not sure where i put it now .. ------------- Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something. "Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful." |
Posted By: AllisChalmers37
Date Posted: 02 Dec 2010 at 2:48pm
Heres the ads about BIG AL.
  ------------- 1937 WC, 1950 CA, 1959 D14, 1967 190XT, 2006 Ram 3500 |
Posted By: darrel in ND
Date Posted: 02 Dec 2010 at 3:13pm
| Any one ever heard of them being refered to as the "purple Bomb"? Story I heard was that they got that nickname from the fact that it was easy to turn the HP up on em, so a lot of people did, and perhaps went too far, and thus "BOOM". Don't know first hand, just repeating what I heard. Darrel |
Posted By: 427435
Date Posted: 02 Dec 2010 at 3:37pm
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I'm sour grapes where those engines are concerned. The engineering and tooling money spent trying to compete with Cummins, Detroit, and Cat was not only an impossible mission but money that should have been spent on farm tractor engines. Just another example of the foolishness of the top AC people. Even Deere, who had a lot more resources, had enough sense not to get into the class 8 truck market. For that matter, neither did International who even built class 8 trucks. What were they thinking?????????
------------- Mark B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel, GTH-L Simplicity Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not. |
Posted By: Brian Jasper co. Ia
Date Posted: 02 Dec 2010 at 4:04pm
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I had an old time driver tell me they were called "Purple People Eaters". ------------- "Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford |
Posted By: Bob(FL)
Date Posted: 02 Dec 2010 at 5:48pm
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Now this looks like a big waste of money. [TUBE]m48vyc5beNg[/TUBE]
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Posted By: Calvin Schmidt
Date Posted: 02 Dec 2010 at 7:09pm
On the bottom of the brochure is a listing for the V-12 900 hp. 65000 series with 2037 cu.in. These are pictures I took two weeks ago.    took ------------- Nothing is impossible if it is properly financed |
Posted By: Kcgrain
Date Posted: 02 Dec 2010 at 7:24pm
| To 427435, allis didnt build that engine for the class 8 truck market, the engine was being built for the HD 21 dozers, large scrapers, gen sets, wheel loaders, pumps , rock crushers etc, the truck market was just another venue for that engine, I have talked to some drivers that drove these beasts, and they said thats Allis Gaurantee of the legal speed limit in all states was 100% accurate they had power to burn, and would blow any cat , cummins ,or detroit right off the road. To be fair though the "big AL" was 450 hp detroit was building 318V8, cummins had a hard time making 350 hold together and Cat was holding 300...barely. The flaw in the truck market for Allis CHlamers wasnt design, HP or reliability, it was a lack of engine support out in the country. Every little town had a cummins or detroit dealer, cat had service shops all over Allis Chlamers had few if any. SO if your BIG AL engine needed service or parts you were screwed. Mack had the same problem untill recently west of the Mississippi, few Mack dealers to service the trucks or engines west of the Mississippi, and Mack was known more for voactional trucks, not class 8. Mack with Volvos help has over come that and Allis Chalmers didnt remain in the truck engine market long enough to over come it. |
Posted By: Jeff(WD45-SATX-TN)
Date Posted: 02 Dec 2010 at 7:25pm
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Wonder how much time and money is required to change belts on that V24 hot rod diesel?? ------------- 1954 WD45 NF "Iron Tater" |
Posted By: 427435
Date Posted: 02 Dec 2010 at 8:06pm
The problem was that there wasn't enough volume in the AC construction or generating business to justify the engineering and tooling costs-----------so the engine division got management to believe that their sales to the class 8 truck market would pay back those costs. Of course, that never happened and the engineering work and tooling $ that would have kept the tractor/combine engines competitive never happened. Yeah, I know sour grapes, but hindsight is always 20-20. ------------- Mark B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel, GTH-L Simplicity Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not. |
Kcgrain wrote:Posted By: allisguy2010
Date Posted: 02 Dec 2010 at 8:25pm
| Those engines are monsters even by todays standards! We have those in our snow blowers at work and they are running circles around the new and old cummins engines of higher hp! |
Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 02 Dec 2010 at 8:36pm
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Calvin, I bet a guy could run a lot of Christmas Lights with that Gen set Unit and probably be able to watch TV at the same time. LOL
------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: JoeO(CMO)
Date Posted: 02 Dec 2010 at 8:52pm
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I believe it will handle the RV load OK. ------------- |
Posted By: Calvin Schmidt
Date Posted: 02 Dec 2010 at 8:59pm
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I think it would run most of the town with 550 kw ------------- Nothing is impossible if it is properly financed |
Posted By: Bertman
Date Posted: 02 Dec 2010 at 9:16pm
| Purple people eaters wer known for breaking the fronts off the crank. If I remember correctly? Maybe I should see if I got pics (slides) that I can put on here. |
Posted By: Unit3
Date Posted: 02 Dec 2010 at 9:27pm
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I would like to find an old semi with the Big Al engine. I would be fun to drive it to Hutchinson.
Calvin Schmidt, Thank you! Thank you! THANK YOU!!! FOR POSTING PICTURES OF THAT MONSTER V12!!! I have never ever seen any pictures of one until tonight. Would she fit in a 4W305? Hmmm 4 turbos and 4 exhaust pipes
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Posted By: denwic
Date Posted: 02 Dec 2010 at 11:00pm
| Wonder how much oil leaked out of that 12V-71 while it was on the dyno |
Posted By: denwic
Date Posted: 02 Dec 2010 at 11:01pm
| Sorry, I mean 24V-71 |
Posted By: firebrick43
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2010 at 10:51am
Not really, that 900hp V12 is a little thing. The engines our plant produces, are smallest V-8 puts out that much. Our largest ~8000 hp, and you get around ship engines and our 8000 hp ones look tiny. Size is all in relation. |
Posted By: skipwelte
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2010 at 11:13am
| I remember the Purple People Eaters, hills didnt bother them, nothin else could keep up. What Bertman says about the cranks breaking off is what Ive heard too. It was a design thing, the fillet on the front of the crank wasnt in compression, the front pulley had a tendancy to fall off. What was said about not being able to get the engine repaired on the road was true, thats one reason why it didnt suceed. We had a 16v-101 here at one time on a gen set skid. The boss wanted it running to show to a potential customer, we had it hooked up to a 55 gal drum of diesel fuel with a 1/2 hose, we didnt wind it up as there was no load on the generator, lot of noise and smoke!!!! |
Posted By: ac_bowsers
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2010 at 7:32pm
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A guy I got to become friends with this past summer used to ride with his dad over the road. His dad had one of the original purple and white show trucks a KW conventional. It ended up at Chicago KW, Kenny said that thing would pull anything, I mean ANYTHING, it had way more power and torque then what it was rated at. His dad had to put several clutches in as it would literally pull them apart, and yes they did have one time with the crank shaft breaking the nose off once, he thought when it was repaired they had come up with a better front damper to keep it from happening. I saw him last week, he is still looking for pictures of it, they know where the truck is, it has been repainted black and orange and has been repowerd with cummins, but he also knows wherre the engine is all still together. Remember this was back in the day when truck engines all had be played with, Kenny said his dad would out pull any engine on any grade with any load with that truck. Ahh the good old days, when if it don't smoke, then its broke, now if theres smoke then its broke!!!
------------- Pine Stock Farm "Home of the ALLIS" 35-WC-36-U-37-UC-47-C-49-G-57-D17-58-D17puller-63-D21-71-210puller-79-7045-83-8070-AA9675-BigTen-B10-310-1300fieldcult-snapcoupler imp.-longhopper blower,signs,etc. |
Posted By: Larry(OH)
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2010 at 8:15pm
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DETROIT.. how can you put that much fuel and air into something a get nothing in return other than noise!! ------------- '40 WC puller,'50 WD puller,'50 M puller '65 770 Ollie *ALLIS EXPRESS contact* I can explain it to you, BUT I cannot understand it for you!! |
Posted By: LouSWPA
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2010 at 8:23pm
------------- I am still confident of this; I will see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord; be strong and take heart and wait for the Lord. Ps 27 |
Posted By: JM
Date Posted: 04 Dec 2010 at 12:57pm
| My family had a Allis dealership in the day. Grandpa told me they called them purple demons. He said one truck drive claimed he could pass empty rigs pullin a grade fully loaded and blow them away. He also said pete, mack, and KW quite using them because the driveline wouldnt hold up. |
Posted By: allisguy2010
Date Posted: 04 Dec 2010 at 1:16pm
| AC bowsers - that would be a nice item to get and put it back together to take it to the shows! |
Posted By: ac_bowsers
Date Posted: 04 Dec 2010 at 3:30pm
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After getting some more info to my friend, he wishes they still had that truck, allisguy2010. At least they know where it is, and maybe someday can get it back. Can't believe AC let them end up at a KW dealership back in the day to be sold, thought they would have used them around West Allis.
------------- Pine Stock Farm "Home of the ALLIS" 35-WC-36-U-37-UC-47-C-49-G-57-D17-58-D17puller-63-D21-71-210puller-79-7045-83-8070-AA9675-BigTen-B10-310-1300fieldcult-snapcoupler imp.-longhopper blower,signs,etc. |
Posted By: big al
Date Posted: 04 Dec 2010 at 10:16pm
| i just picked up the wheels of time magazine,for the big al piece.i have all the service bullitens from harvey on the truck engines.they did change the crank a couple of times to correct the crank breakage issue.ac eventually went to a 6 counterweight crank from 12 to lighten the recipricating mass of the crank. also they wanted to keep the nose of crank in compression. the 6138 has all the updates.ihave a 6138ti that came out of a fire truck.i am planning to put in a 72 pete for the aths show in the end of may(south bend,indiana).ac had special chrome/purple emblems that went on the side of the hood .ihave these emblems and a vest that has "big al" logo for promotion.any questions? |
Posted By: Steve M C/IL
Date Posted: 04 Dec 2010 at 11:08pm
| You did well big al.Glad there is at least one left.May have to come to South Bend. |
Posted By: Calvin Schmidt
Date Posted: 05 Dec 2010 at 6:42am
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Would a 25000 MKII engine have the same updates as the 6138? ------------- Nothing is impossible if it is properly financed |
Posted By: DougG
Date Posted: 05 Dec 2010 at 8:25am
| I know of a 72 Freightshaker with a BIG AL still in the truck , also a 74 Dodge Bighorn with one in just sitting , guy SAYS he dont want to sell them of coarse , BUT every now and then he calls wondering if I,m still interested ;and of coarse I am ; but he wants to dam much !!!! we are in the negociations stage ; hopefully it,ll work out one of these days |
Posted By: Coke-in-MN
Date Posted: 05 Dec 2010 at 8:27am
 ------------- Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something. "Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful." |
Posted By: DougG
Date Posted: 05 Dec 2010 at 8:49am
| This is just one more of ALLIS CHALMERS big ,good ideas that they let fall through the cracks ; the owner of the trucks I know of said AC were really pushing Freightliner + KW to market these and service these engines under AC contracts all over the US , BUT AC MOVED ON TO another good idea and it all fell slowly apart ????? Way to go AC !! Like Walt B. said many times - once again ALLIS struck faliure at the brink of success !!! |
Posted By: NICKMI
Date Posted: 05 Dec 2010 at 10:39am
| Id just like to see a motor in an actual truck ive looked online and cant come up with anything anybody have any pics of these monsters besides sales lit. ? |
Posted By: 1946WP
Date Posted: 05 Dec 2010 at 10:30pm
| a friend of mine ( a truck Guy) was telling me about this AC engine the other nite. he wanted to know if I'd ever seen one. No I haven't. I thought the purple people eaters were the mn. vikings. |
Posted By: JimIA
Date Posted: 05 Dec 2010 at 10:39pm
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I also purchased a copy of the magazine today. It was a very detailed well written story. It reminded me of the Tucker 48 cars. Many good ideas that were copied by everyone else after they went under. But isnt that the way with everything? One big example, look at tractor designs of all of the other brands after the 8000 series we discontinued. Jim |
Posted By: Unit3
Date Posted: 05 Dec 2010 at 10:42pm
| Got my copy of the magazine today. No Big Al's for sale in the back. Sorry. |
Posted By: Unit3
Date Posted: 05 Dec 2010 at 10:45pm
| Hey Jim, how are things going over East? Sorry I missed you at the GOTO. I got a few pictures of your 4r cult for the UC. |
Posted By: big al
Date Posted: 05 Dec 2010 at 10:55pm
| calvin-the 25000mark2 came out in 68,there was a number of improvements to these engines thru the years .the best engines with all the updates would be approx. 1975 up.serial #4700 &up.the 21000 is the same as 25000 except for the intercooler and fuel setting.serial #13500 and up on the 21000 would also have the same updates.the 6138 has the flange mounted injection pump,and piston cooling thru the rods instead of the nozzles on the bottom of the cyl.(21000-25000)if you have a engine give me the serial # and i can give you what you can do to improve it .also the 6120(8550-4w305) engine is a 6138 with a destroked crank ,so you can build a 6138 with a crank change and pistons.i would have to look to see if if the connecting rods are the same length as the6138. |
Posted By: Calvin Schmidt
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2010 at 7:00am
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I would assume that a 21000 or 25000 engine would bolt into a 4W305 making a 450 hp super tractor. I'll get some serial numbers. ------------- Nothing is impossible if it is properly financed |
Posted By: Steve M C/IL
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2010 at 8:24am
| Did they use the R/Bosch P pump? |
Posted By: big al
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2010 at 10:48pm
| i think your refering to p pump like the ones on a cummins 5.9 (p7100)the one the big al are bosch ape with 12mm plungers.some on the lower horse use 11mm.you might be right, they look just like a p7100. |
Posted By: big al
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2010 at 10:51pm
| some 21000s-25000s used both robert bosch and american bosch |
Posted By: Bob(W-Md)
Date Posted: 07 Dec 2010 at 7:22pm
| Little Steve with Big Al |
Posted By: DonDittmar
Date Posted: 08 Dec 2010 at 3:20pm
------------- Experience is a fancy name for past mistakes. "Great moments are born from great opportunity" 1968 D15D,1962 D19D Also 1965 Cub Loboy and 1958 JD 720 Diesel Pony Start |
Posted By: H Clark
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2010 at 10:24am
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Found this on e-bay and remembered seeing this topic on here so I thought that I would share. http://cgi.ebay.com/Original-Slides-Allis-Chalmers-Semi-Truck-NEW-6-69-/280602226617?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4155322fb9 - http://cgi.ebay.com/Original-Slides-Allis-Chalmers-Semi-Truck-NEW-6-69-/280602226617?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4155322fb9
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Posted By: jmm
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2010 at 11:45am
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Posted By: jmm
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2010 at 11:57am
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apparently this guy has one:
http://www.knarrfarms.com/idutgallery/index.php?c=album&d=ahts2010 - http://www.knarrfarms.com/idutgallery/index.php?c=album&d=ahts2010
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Posted By: firebrick43
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2010 at 1:15pm
Yes, there were some 425hp 1693, which was very conservative. They were aftercooled unlike the lower hp 1693's. I have seen several places state that it was 425 to the wheels which means 500+ at the crank. Of course in 74 Detroit released their 8V92 which could be a beast turbocharged There were some trucks with 12v71s Also somewhere in there Cummins introduced the KTA 1150 with ~600hp. Don't know the exact year there. |
Posted By: big al
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2010 at 10:18pm
| the original detroit 12v71 truck engines were rated at 385hp.as the early 70's progressed the hp increased to 456hp.the turboed 12v's did not apear until about 1973.alot of truck manufactures did not offer the turboed versian at the time (525hp)the cummins kt450 did not come on to the seen until 74-75.the diamond-reo literature i have doesn't show the kt option until the raider series truck came out in 74-75.that is also true for the detroit 8v92t(430hp)none of the above engines could get the fuel mileage as the big al (450hp) .338lbs/per hp hour.i have 12v71tt,8v92ta,cat3408ta,none of thes engines can get over 4 miles per gallon.you might be able get 5,but you would have to have a light foot.big al supposed to get 6+,we will soon test to see if that is true! |
Posted By: DonDittmar
Date Posted: 14 Dec 2010 at 11:30am
Should, or better yet bolt a 25000 crank into the 4W305. The engine in the 4W305 was based on the 844CID 25000 engine, only with a shorter stroke to give 731CID ------------- Experience is a fancy name for past mistakes. "Great moments are born from great opportunity" 1968 D15D,1962 D19D Also 1965 Cub Loboy and 1958 JD 720 Diesel Pony Start |
Posted By: 427435
Date Posted: 14 Dec 2010 at 1:46pm
You would also likely need new pistons or rods or both. You would also need to slow the engine speed down to keep the piston speed reasonable. ------------- Mark B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel, GTH-L Simplicity Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not. |
Posted By: armandjones82
Date Posted: 14 Dec 2010 at 7:15pm
| I think that reading this thread with regards to "Big Al" truck http://www.stylintrucks.com/sn.aspx?category%7Ccategory_root%7C-34=Restoration&category%7Ccat_-34%7C440=Engines - engines , I think that things are really much better these days by reading about it here or in other sources as well. In this way, i've got to learn a lot of things in order to compensate stuffs. Hope all is well by now. |
Posted By: klinemar
Date Posted: 14 Dec 2010 at 9:06pm
| Detroit Diesels were always called Michigan Road Oilers.And some called them Power Converters they converted power to noise.The selling point on the 92 series Detroit Diesel was 92 fewer oil leaks!As for the Allis truck motor what killed them was no Dealers.Most any Metropolitan area had Cummins or Detroit or even Cat.For the Allis motor you had to find a Allis Industrial Dealer because the Farm Equipment Dealers did not handle anything close to the truck motor until the 8550 tractor was built. |
Posted By: big al
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2010 at 12:01am
| i talked to a friend this morning (he has a ac/fiat-allis construction salvage yard in mi.)he told me a story,that he got a call from a guy who drove a cab over pete with a big al for allis chalmers.after the plant closed,he bought the truck from the co.he said he never had a crank failure(other drivers did)because he always drove the truck between 1400-2100rpm.the truck had over a million miles.when the engine got tired he would take it to allis,put innew sleeve packs and bearings and head back out on the road.when he hit the mountains out west alot of guys would try to pass him-but few ever did.anyway he wanted a allis guy to buy the truck,and my friend at the time was'nt interested.my friend told me he still might have the guys info written down in his notes(10-15 years ago).i told him to see if he still had the guys contact info.i am relitivlely sure the truck is gone,but it sure would be neat to talk to the guy. |
Posted By: redline
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2010 at 8:09am
Sharp looking cabover. I think we might be a little late for their show, though.
 ------------- If it weren't for the last minute, I wouldn't get anything done! |
Posted By: JR Maley
Date Posted: 28 Jun 2011 at 4:55pm
| Ok, sorry for bringing this old topic up, but I must know more! I am super intrigued by the rarity of Big Al engines, and I would love to see/hear one in person, or if not possible, at least on youtube. |