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ElementalEarth 
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 Topic: Delco starter 1107695 - broken teeth
Posted: 18 Mar 2024 at 6:30pm |
Well, today I swore a lot. I was almost done with the repairs of the tractor, see my other lengthy thread, and I wanted to start the tractor as I was diagnosing an erronous temp gauge. Much to my surprise, the tractor started right up, but it seems the starter gear was stuck in the flywheel as I heard the starter still spinning while the engine started running. I turned it off and tried to turn it on again, but unfortunately, no game. The starter wouldn't budge anymore. So after a long session of swearing and trying to get that inner bolt off,I still haven't found the best way to get that in and off, I managed to peel off the starter and behold.. it needs new teeth. How hard is it to replace the teeth gear ? Is there a reason why it would get stuck in the flywheel? Can I get a replacement gear or do I need to get a new starter?
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Codger
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Posted: 18 Mar 2024 at 6:39pm |
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That is the starter drive that is broken. It is replaceable separately. Ensure your flywheel teeth are good as they may be the root cause and require a ring gear replacement.
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A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
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ElementalEarth
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Posted: 18 Mar 2024 at 7:02pm |
 Codger wrote:
That is the starter drive that is broken. It is replaceable separately. Ensure your flywheel teeth are good as they may be the root cause and require a ring gear replacement.
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How hard is it to dismantle the starter and replace the gear?
The teeth on the ring gear look in good condition, other than some damage where the starter broke its gear, what do you think ?
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Steve in NJ
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Posted: 18 Mar 2024 at 7:15pm |
Best to take it to a local rebuilder and have him go through it. Could be numerous reasons why the Starter motor failed. The 695 is the 12V version for the D17 & 170/175 gassers. We offer rebuilding services as well.
Steve@B&B
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39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife
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WF owner
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Posted: 18 Mar 2024 at 7:24pm |
The engine usually stops in one four spots because it stops where it starts to meet resistance (compression). Much of the ring gear can look good, but you need to check the whole ring gear to make sure you find the four spots where the starter engages.
If the ring gear is bad, you have to split the tractor to replace it. It's not expensive, but quite a lot of labor.
Edited by WF owner - 18 Mar 2024 at 7:26pm
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ElementalEarth
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Posted: 18 Mar 2024 at 7:53pm |
WF owner wrote:
The engine usually stops in one four spots because it stops where it starts to meet resistance (compression). Much of the ring gear can look good, but you need to check the whole ring gear to make sure you find the four spots where the starter engages.
If the ring gear is bad, you have to split the tractor to replace it. It's not expensive, but quite a lot of labor. |
Just checked the ring gear. Teeth are all there, other than a bit of surface wear in the spots you mentioned, looks pretty good still. I think it's alright. The starter however is not. I located a new gear for it and am eager to dig in to see what i find. It does turn the tractor over slowly sometimes.. is that the usual way it goes?
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Codger
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Posted: 18 Mar 2024 at 8:00pm |
I would send that starter complete to Steve as he is an active and willing helper/supporter of the site. As mentioned you need to roll that engine over 360 degrees, (by hand) to ensure that ring gear is sound before installing a fresh starter back onto the engine.
If you remove the spark plugs the engine will roll over easily by just pulling on the fan blade if the belts are tight. You can look at the flywheel teeth easily with the starter removed. If you see one or more teeth mashed severely, or more likely broken out, the ring gear needs replaced.
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ElementalEarth
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Posted: 19 Mar 2024 at 8:54am |
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I think the reason why the gear broke is that the gear was "sticking" in the flywheel. What could be the cause of that? According to the internet the gear itself could be sticking and not going back in properly into the starter..
It could also be a bad solenoid?
What is interesting is that while I was starting the engine in a somewhat heated barn, around 0°c, this problem did not occur.
But when it sat overnight outside in -10°c, the gear got stuck.
Now it's the first time I've had her outside since all the reno work started on it, but I believe the starter started acting up like this last summer as well.. so temperature might be unrelated.
Could be the solenoid I used is just of low quality, which i think it is anyways. Might be worth swapping solenoid with a better model ?
Anyways, just brainstorming here. The ring gear looked good, but i didnt check it 360°.
Also, I'd love to be able to ship it to Steve, but I'm in Canada and shipping a starter there and back with conversion rates and inflation of shipping costs would be so high it would probably worth a new starter altogether unfortunately. Maybe when you're shipping in US only it's better rates?
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Codger
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Posted: 19 Mar 2024 at 9:14am |
There are a plethora of mechanical actions that take place along with the electrical functions to make that starter motor operate and spin the engine over. Any gearing that binds, has burrs, or is starved of lubrication can be culprit to what you have experienced; as can be a bent or worn shift fork, it's attachment, or pivot points, etc.
I would get that starter to a qualified rebuilder or find an exchange unit myself. I can easily rebuild starters but have no way to properly load and functional test them once back together. Quality parts is another obstacle to overcome. So much chinese crap on the market these days and online suppliers beating down local merchants it is difficult for someone not in that business to know what to do.
I tend to strongly support those that support me. Although I've never had business with Steve, I recommend him citing his helpful advice on the forum to others. There are a few others also I respect from this aspect. Those that only come around when they have problems for free advice, not so much.
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A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 19 Mar 2024 at 9:14am |
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its possible the Solenoid did not let go and continue to run the starter... Another GOOD possibility is that the GEAR "screws" out into the flywheel... It has to run SMOOTH on the SCREW... Things get "GOOEY" after many years and the gear does not KICK OUT, but gets STUCK in the run position... Wash the gear / screw in solvent.. couple drops of oil and work the gear back and forth to see that it slides OK.
Edited by steve(ill) - 19 Mar 2024 at 9:15am
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ElementalEarth
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Posted: 19 Mar 2024 at 9:40am |
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I had the starter rebuilt a few years ago by a gentleman who used to be an airplane engineer. Worked beautifully after. Unfortunately he has passed away.
I just recall the issue started this last summer when i replaced the solenoid with a chinese junk one. It is even pink and looks like it came from dollarama haha. It looked a lot better in the picture..
I think for safety reasons I might try and find a quality solenoid instead. While the starter gets rebuild aswell.
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Alberta Phil
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Posted: 19 Mar 2024 at 9:52am |
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I'm in western Canada and shipped the starter from my hi compression WD to Steve a few years ago, and with his rebuild costs and shipping was not much more than the local rebuilder I use here. It was well worth the small extra expense as I've never had a rebuilt starter that cranks over that "hot rod" WD like that one does!
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WF owner
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Posted: 19 Mar 2024 at 11:05am |
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I live in New York State about 5 miles from Quebec and about 12 miles from Ontario. If I can help, give me a shout.
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Les Kerf
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Posted: 19 Mar 2024 at 4:45pm |
ElementalEarth wrote:
...
What is interesting is that while I was starting the engine in a somewhat heated barn, around 0°c, this problem did not occur.
But when it sat overnight outside in -10°c, the gear got stuck... |
Yup. Cold, congealed oil on the Bendix will do that.
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Steve in NJ
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Posted: 19 Mar 2024 at 4:46pm |
I have customers in Canada that have P.O. Boxes in the states or someone like Curt to send it to. Your call. I'll also ship direct right up to Canada from here. As Phil mentioned, by the time yer' done dealing locally, for a few bucks more I can do your Starter complete top to bottom. Totally up to you. I know the border is tough on our Canadian customers. They're a rip off in my point of view what they got ya.... 
Sometimes Starter motors will start hanging up if enough blowby from the engine over the years mixed with carbon from the brushes hang up the drive assy. Basically, when I take a lot of customer Starter motors apart, they are typically all full of muck. Even the ones that were so called "rebuilt" with nice paint jobs on the outside. Seems like some of these rebuilders don't bother cleaning anything internally. My Starters get tanked in and out, shot blasted along with rewound armatures in them. They are basically brand new inside. Brushes, brush holders. fields, etc. When i have my rewinder do his magic, our rebuilt units make some serious torque on the 881 machine when testing is going on. I don't ship a Starter till it meets my specs. Steve@B&B
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39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife
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ACinSC
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Posted: 19 Mar 2024 at 5:24pm |
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Steve rebuilt my D 15 starter several years back. Been working great ever since. Just saying
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Coke-in-MN
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Posted: 19 Mar 2024 at 6:26pm |
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The shaft from Armature to front bushing needs to be CLEAN and the bushing at each end of armature need to be good , As starter windings energize they pull armature in a outward force creating a high load on bushings , same with front as it is loaded by clash with ring gear and try to move outward .
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Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."
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Coke-in-MN
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Posted: 19 Mar 2024 at 6:30pm |
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On my AC 2200 engine I replaced the starter drive twice with what they called the Heavy Duty unit (sprag clutch held in machined housing with snap ring) and last time I just got the regular unit at 1/2 price - lasted over 5 years when I sold the machine
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Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."
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ElementalEarth
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Posted: 21 Mar 2024 at 8:30pm |
Hello again, and here with the latest greatest. Here are my findings. The problem seemed to have occurred when grease/oil along with debris particles made their way into the starter drive spiraling screw. A particle binded up the screw part of the drive so it was not able to retract fully back into the housing and voila, a broken gear as the result. Here in the picture it is only partially showing anymore, as I had worked it back and forth and removed the bind. A new starter drive is ordered and on the way. 
As my further findings, the destruction of the gear itself created a bit of disturbing scarring on the armature of the shaft, I'm hoping with a good sanding and polish I can work out the rough spots on that and have it function like before hopefully. It was shards of the broken gear jammed by the flywheel of the engine that created these cuts.  As far as the rest of the starter, a lot of this golden metallic dust was found at the bottom, I assume this has to do with the brushes wearing out over time? What are these made of I wonder, that they "shed" shavings like this and is this potentially where a fleck of this debris came from that ended up in the starter drive further up front of the starter.. it is a possibility. I will clean out the end part really well and hopefully that takes care of that for a while. Part of me fixing all this stuff myself is because since I was a kid I had a huge fascination with taking things apart and learning how things worked. I definitely have gotten alot better at putting things back together in working condition. :) Fingers crossed with some polishing and a new starter drive, the starter motor will be back in action!  |
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 21 Mar 2024 at 8:45pm |
Part of me fixing all this stuff myself is because since I was a kid I had a huge fascination with taking things apart and learning how things worked. I definitely have gotten alot better at putting things back together in working condition.
Nothing wrong with the Rebuilders.. They do a great job and many people dont have the time to TINKER with Electrical / Carb / Etc...... Others of us , like you, would rather take the time and do it ourselves and learn in the process... Nothing wrong with that !
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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ElementalEarth
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Posted: 21 Mar 2024 at 11:20pm |
steve(ill) wrote:
<span style="color: rgb0, 0, 36; : rgb254, 252, 212;">Part of me fixing all this stuff myself is because since I was a kid I had a huge fascination with taking things apart and learning how things worked. I definitely have gotten alot better at putting things back together in working condition.</span><span style="color: rgb0, 0, 36; : rgb254, 252, 212;">
</span> [COLOR=#000024]<span style=": rgb254, 252, 212;]Nothing wrong with the Rebuilders.. They do a great job and many people dont have the time to TINKER with Electrical / Carb / Etc...... Others of us , like you, would rather take the time and do it ourselves and learn in the process... Nothing wrong with that !</span>[/COLOR] |
Sometimes you got more money than time.. sometimes more time than money.. :) it sways back and forth like a pendulum of life.
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ElementalEarth
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Posted: 22 Mar 2024 at 7:48pm |
https://youtube.com/shorts/UE3-_v5P73MStarter is back in working order, ran a bench test. Haven't tried putting it back on the tractor yet as it's-15C out right now. Fingers crossed it'll still work when attached. No idea what the clearance should be for the gear to the full front of the nose of starter, but it's looking much better than with the old broken starter drive that didnt want to go back in. Apparently it's not that uncommon for this to fail.
Edited by ElementalEarth - 22 Mar 2024 at 8:02pm
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WF owner
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Posted: 23 Mar 2024 at 9:17am |
My word of caution would be to make absolutely sure that there is nothing on the ring gear that is going to hold the new starter drive in.
Personally, I would remove the spark plugs (or at least the coil wire) and turn it over several times to check that the starter drive is retracting after every cycle the starter runs.
It would be a shame to have an imperfection in the ring gear hold the drive in and ruin the new starter drive.
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ElementalEarth
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Posted: 23 Mar 2024 at 10:22am |
WF owner wrote:
My word of caution would be to make absolutely sure that there is nothing on the ring gear that is going to hold the new starter drive in.
Personally, I would remove the spark plugs (or at least the coil wire) and turn it over several times to check that the starter drive is retracting after every cycle the starter runs.
It would be a shame to have an imperfection in the ring gear hold the drive in and ruin the new starter drive. |
Hey that's actually a really great idea! Definitely going to do that to make sure it doesn't catch again. Thanks for the tip!
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DrAllis
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Posted: 23 Mar 2024 at 10:30am |
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The starter drive "retracts" when the engine fires up. Removing spark plugs, cranking and releasing the starter button will leave that type of starter drive still fully engaged with the ring gear.
Edited by DrAllis - 23 Mar 2024 at 10:32am
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Les Kerf
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Posted: 23 Mar 2024 at 11:02am |
DrAllis wrote:
The starter drive "retracts" when the engine fires up. Removing spark plugs, cranking and releasing the starter button will leave that type of starter drive still fully engaged with the ring gear.
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Yup. The Bendix-type starter drive relies on the flywheel 'outrunning' the starter to force the gear backward on the spiral drive segment.
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ElementalEarth
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Posted: 23 Mar 2024 at 5:28pm |
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Well, today it was a bit warmer out, -3°c , so I put humpty dumpty allis back together again with the rebuilt starter.
She started right up, first try! Starter worked beautifully didn't stick. Just awesome! Thanks for the advice folks!
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