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1956 allis B

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78camaro View Drop Down
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    Posted: 09 Feb 2014 at 10:29am
What should be the gap and thickness on pistion rings
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MNLonnie View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MNLonnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb 2014 at 10:48am
End gap can be .007-.017.
20-35, Wauk B, 2-B's, IB, 2-TLB's, TLW, TL6, C, CA, 2-G's, WC, styled WF, WD45w/ARPS, 2-W Patrols, M crawler, D15, D15 forklift,615 backhoe, TT-18, B125 PU,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MNLonnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb 2014 at 10:51am
Compression ring width  1/8". Oil ring 3/16".
20-35, Wauk B, 2-B's, IB, 2-TLB's, TLW, TL6, C, CA, 2-G's, WC, styled WF, WD45w/ARPS, 2-W Patrols, M crawler, D15, D15 forklift,615 backhoe, TT-18, B125 PU,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 78camaro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb 2014 at 11:14am
Thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CTuckerNWIL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb 2014 at 12:49pm
If you are re-ringing old pistons, be careful of the top ring groove width. The Aluminum pistons have a tendency to spread the groove out letting the ring slam up and down with each stroke. Not a good thing.
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Lena 1935 WC12xxx,1938 B2xx, 1950 WD, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 78camaro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 2014 at 1:15pm
My bore is 3 7/16 when i put my ring in the sleave what is the gap on the ring
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 78camaro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 2014 at 1:18pm
Those numbers are not right someone put a kit in it
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MNLonnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 2014 at 3:57pm
If I remember right the rule of thumb is around .004" per inch of bore so you would be around .014 end gap.
20-35, Wauk B, 2-B's, IB, 2-TLB's, TLW, TL6, C, CA, 2-G's, WC, styled WF, WD45w/ARPS, 2-W Patrols, M crawler, D15, D15 forklift,615 backhoe, TT-18, B125 PU,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 78camaro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 2014 at 4:00pm
Ok thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 78camaro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2014 at 9:51am
I did some measuments
My piston is 3.350
My bore is 3.370
Gap between piston and bore is.020
The gap on old rings where piston rise is .035 and on the very top it is .028
Does all this sound right ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dick L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2014 at 9:57am
Here you go! print this large enough to read and you have the specs before you.




My book tells that .010 is max on end gap. I have seen others show .014.
Not enough difference to worry about. They will run at .030 but will not give you ample power when placing it under load and will most likely smoke more than you would like. You will also get blow by to where it can blow oil out the breather at the .030 ring end gap.

When run a lot with .020 clearance between the piston and sleeve you will start to get piston noise called slap and once it starts it will wear the sleeve must faster and get louder.

Your best results for a sound engine would be an engine kit. If there is not enough funds to do a to spec overhaul you can make it run and still have fun looking at all the parts and learning what you might be able to do later. You are learning with your inspection, questions and measuring. That is all good.



Edited by Dick L - 16 Feb 2014 at 10:16am
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MNLonnie View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MNLonnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2014 at 10:17am
From your numbers and Dick's chart it looks like it's time for new pistons.
20-35, Wauk B, 2-B's, IB, 2-TLB's, TLW, TL6, C, CA, 2-G's, WC, styled WF, WD45w/ARPS, 2-W Patrols, M crawler, D15, D15 forklift,615 backhoe, TT-18, B125 PU,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CTuckerNWIL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2014 at 10:46am
Originally posted by 78camaro 78camaro wrote:

I did some measuments
My piston is 3.350
My bore is 3.370
Gap between piston and bore is.020
The gap on old rings where piston rise is .035 and on the very top it is .028
Does all this sound right ?

Earlier you said your bore was 3 7/16. That would be 3.4375
 Now you post sizes of 3.370 for the bore and 3.350 for the piston. Did you happen to leave out the 4 that should be in both of the last 2 measurements? 
Sleeve at 3.437 and piston at 3.435

3.370 is nowhere near 3 7/16. It would be closer to 3 3/8 but if it was 3 3/8 it wouldn't be undersize.Confused


Edited by CTuckerNWIL - 16 Feb 2014 at 10:47am
http://www.ae-ta.com
Lena 1935 WC12xxx,1938 B2xx, 1950 WD, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dick L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2014 at 11:14am
Originally posted by CTuckerNWIL CTuckerNWIL wrote:



Originally posted by 78camaro 78camaro wrote:

I did some measuments
My piston is 3.350
My bore is 3.370
Gap between piston and bore is.020
The gap on old rings where piston rise is .035 and on the very top it is .028
Does all this sound right ?


Earlier you said your bore was 3 7/16. That would be 3.4375
 Now you post sizes of 3.370 for the bore and 3.350 for the piston. Did you happen to leave out the 4 that should be in both of the last 2 measurements? 
Sleeve at 3.437 and piston at 3.435

3.370 is nowhere near 3 7/16. It would be closer to 3 3/8 but if it was 3 3/8 it wouldn't be undersize.Confused




I was assuming his measuring tool was not calibrated correctly but the difference would be close. I guessed that he had 3.375 sleeves or 3 3/8" Not many tractors will have 3 7/6" pistons and sleeves that have not been overhauled in recent years. The propped way to check piston clearance is with a feeler gage slid down between the piston and sleeve without rings. If I can get .010 down I replace.


Edited by Dick L - 16 Feb 2014 at 11:15am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 78camaro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2014 at 11:26am
I went and bought a caliper to get the right measurment
So you think i need new pistons or just new rings?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dick L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2014 at 2:11pm
What Tucker was telling you in his last sentence was that your measurement of 3.370 was .005 smaller than the 3.375 that it would have been new. To measure the inside diameter down in the cylinder you would need a set of telescope gages that you measure over with your calipers.



Edited by Dick L - 16 Feb 2014 at 2:20pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveC(NS) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2014 at 6:15pm
Originally posted by 78camaro 78camaro wrote:

I went and bought a caliper to get the right measurment
So you think i need new pistons or just new rings?


Never mind that caliper, that measurement requires an inside micrometer or telescoping guage and an outside mike as per Dick.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 78camaro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2014 at 6:25pm
What do i need ???
New pistons or just rings??
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MNLonnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2014 at 6:54pm
The boys are saying that your measurement (3.370) can't be quite right since it's less than stock so you will have to verify the bore dimension to know for sure.
20-35, Wauk B, 2-B's, IB, 2-TLB's, TLW, TL6, C, CA, 2-G's, WC, styled WF, WD45w/ARPS, 2-W Patrols, M crawler, D15, D15 forklift,615 backhoe, TT-18, B125 PU,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2014 at 9:55pm
Your measurements are wrong. Dont buy pistons or rings untill you get the correct measurements. Borrow a mike, or put the block and pistons in the pickkup and go to the local machine shop and ask someone to mike it for you.  Its possible you can hone the cylinders and put new rings on the old pistons, but you have to get good numbers first.
like them all, but collect the little Bs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dick L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2014 at 5:54am
Originally posted by 78camaro 78camaro wrote:

What do i need ???
New pistons or just rings??


I would say what you need is some help in details before parts.
Start with some good pictures of what you are looking at.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 78camaro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2014 at 11:37am
I put a telescop gage in middle of bore amd it came up at 3.38 70
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MNLonnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2014 at 5:46pm
At 3.387 you are .012 over stock so you might get by with a .010 over set of pistons but it would be really pushing it probably. You would probably need to go to .020 over but might be better off to replace the sleeves and pistons as a set with stock sizes.
20-35, Wauk B, 2-B's, IB, 2-TLB's, TLW, TL6, C, CA, 2-G's, WC, styled WF, WD45w/ARPS, 2-W Patrols, M crawler, D15, D15 forklift,615 backhoe, TT-18, B125 PU,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dick L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2014 at 6:30pm
Originally posted by 78camaro 78camaro wrote:

I put a telescop gage in middle of bore amd it came up at 3.38 70


You will never get the same measurement at every spot in a used sleeve with .012 wear. When I check a used sleeve I measure side to side and end to end every inch down from the top. Make a quick drawing and record the measurements. That will show how much wash out you have in the sleeve and how much out of round the hole might be. Without boring the sleeves or having them machine honed buying oversized pistons will be a disappointment. Probly get stuck below the ring wear. The cost of boring or machine honing the sleeves and buying special oversized pistons would most likely be a much higher cost than buying an engine kit.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 78camaro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 2014 at 11:50am
What should my cam lobes be
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CTuckerNWIL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 2014 at 12:05pm
There is a guy that likes to build Allis engines who is about an hour East of you. He goes by  wi50  on here. Maybe you should send him a private message and go over for a visit.


Edited by CTuckerNWIL - 20 Feb 2014 at 12:05pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 78camaro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 2014 at 12:12pm
How do you know where i am. Where are you
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 78camaro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2014 at 12:05pm
What are the torque for the pressure plate on allis b
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