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Topic ClosedAllis wd45 cam timing

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randywd45 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Allis wd45 cam timing
    Posted: 16 Jul 2012 at 9:45pm
My brother and i are pulling his allis wd45 and we need to run it a little faster and hotter. I was told to run a 170 governor spring for more rpms and to advance the cam one tooth where it meshs to the crank. IS doing this really going to make a big difference?

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wi50 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jul 2012 at 11:46pm
A whole tooth jump is to much. I've seen wd45 engines with both bolt on gears and keyed gears. You'll either have to slot the bolt holes in the cam gear or cut now keyway in the gear. Either way you will need to learn how to or pay someone to degree the cam to crankshaft timeing. In these low speed engines I aim for an intake centerline od 104 atdc and if it's a degree or so either way you're just fine.

If I rember correctly one tooth is worth a bit more than 13 degrees on these engines.
"see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet"
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mlpankey View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 2012 at 12:48pm
if its a bolt on gear . bolt it on to cam drill through cam gear into nose of cam . install a chevy dowl pin into nose of cam like comes in chevy cams . Then purchse the moroso degree bushings .  Enlarge the pilot hole allready drilled into the cam gear for them to fit into and slot the cam gear bolt holes  . The kit comes with bushing in increements of 2 degrees up to 8 degrees depending on which way the offset is to the dowel will depend on if you have advanced it or retard it . The cam turns counter clockwise crank turns clockwise . This is because of a gear on gear if it where a chain the cam would turn the same direction or if it was a odd gear number like a gear drive it would but it doesnt have the third idler gear. Yes I posted and wi read a tooth change is 13 or 14 degrees Wi must have raed it he does alot of searching in my old posts. Seeing that most stock cams are about 116 a ful tooth would get you closer to 104 . the last one i done was came out to 108 with the 8 degree bushing installed but the lines on the gears still matched .To get more you would have to use mopar crank degree keys and machine the crank snout and crank gear to utilise them in conjuction with the cam degree bushing . everytime you advance the  cam more it adds cylinder pressure  and compression makes one lug .hope this helps . I spew alot of real world knowledge onto internet for all .  mitch 

Edited by mlpankey - 17 Jul 2012 at 12:57pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 2012 at 1:12pm
ps you cant just pay someone to degree a allis 226 either . why you may ask ? answere the crank snout isnt tapped from the factory to attach the degree wheel to . So unless thats done first or someone has a creative degree wheel holding in place device to attache to the crank wich i wouldnt trust to be as accurate .mitch
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 2012 at 4:40pm
We hold the degree wheel on with magnets. Works good.
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mlpankey View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 2012 at 6:07pm
i wouldnt trust a magnet of keeping it from rotating. maybe some duct tape. no just drill &threads the end of crank snout then you will have a nut to hold wheel locked  tight atdc and you can also rotate the crank with .

Edited by mlpankey - 17 Jul 2012 at 6:08pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 2012 at 6:12pm
heres a picture of a fellow doing it right i found in his photo bucket heehheee
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mlpankey View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 2012 at 6:14pm
i wounder whos photobucket it may be ... notice the washer and bolt.

Edited by mlpankey - 17 Jul 2012 at 6:14pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 2012 at 6:34pm
Originally posted by mlpankey mlpankey wrote:

i wounder whos photobucket it may be ... notice the washer and bolt.

albums/xx26/pankeyc/tractor parts/09240916201.jpg
http://www.ae-ta.com
Lena 1935 WC12xxx,1938 B2xx, 1950 WD, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF
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mlpankey View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 2012 at 6:41pm
no wonder it was done right the guys a pankey Wink
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mlpankey View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 2012 at 8:09pm
heres what the bushings looks like
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randywd45 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 2012 at 10:34pm
so your saying if we advanced it a whole tooth it wouldn't run? or it wouldn't run worth a darn? but about a half a tooth is just perfect? and what about the 170 governor spring? thanks for the feed back

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mlpankey View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jul 2012 at 8:36am
it will run  a whole tooth depending on where the cam is now will depend on how well it will run with a full tooth change  this is effected by regrinds and non matched gear sets . 170 gov spring is a few more rpms depending on the valve springs and where the valve floats at will also depend on how well the engine runs with increased rpms.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jul 2012 at 9:20pm
Actually pankey there's a few loopholes in your story.

1 the bushings advance or retard will depend on how far they are positioned from the cam's centerline. Unless installed at the same distance as in the chevy the offset will be different.

2. I'm quite sure wi50 was building these things long before pankey was spilling bs on the internet. Anyonee with basic math skills can count the teeth on the gear and do simple math to know that one tooth is worth 13.8 deg of change.

3. No need to take the crank out of the engine and drill and tap the end. It's easy to make a simple hub to fasten on the crank nose to hold a degree wheel. I have mine tapped to hold the crank pulley bolt to lock it on the crank as it does the front pulley.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jul 2012 at 9:30pm
I like the duct tape idea, gorilla glue now makes a duct tape, and from what I understand it's suppppper strong.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jul 2012 at 3:12pm
Originally posted by mlpankey mlpankey wrote:

i wounder whos photobucket it may be ... notice the washer and bolt.
 
Keep your indicator straight, you'll get an accurate reading.
 
What would anyone learn from searching pankey posts?  How not to do things!  Or that pankey installed his cam wrong and couldn't move the pulling sled. 
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mlpankey View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jul 2012 at 5:42pm
Originally posted by Rod B Rod B wrote:

Actually pankey there's a few loopholes in your story.

1 the bushings advance or retard will depend on how far they are positioned from the cam's centerline. Unless installed at the same distance as in the chevy the offset will be different.

2. I'm quite sure wi50 was building these things long before pankey was spilling bs on the internet. Anyonee with basic math skills can count the teeth on the gear and do simple math to know that one tooth is worth 13.8 deg of change.

3. No need to take the crank out of the engine and drill and tap the end. It's easy to make a simple hub to fasten on the crank nose to hold a degree wheel. I have mine tapped to hold the crank pulley bolt to lock it on the crank as it does the front pulley.
chevy cam dowl pin with a chevy 2 degree bushing will move the allis cam 2 degrees if the gears is drilled with the gear bolted on and the marks aligned. the having the gear bolted on and drilling through gear for dowl you must have missed. And most think 60 teeth in a 360 degree circle is 6 degrees but you have to account for lash on both sides of the tooth. Rod we couldnt move the sled in 3500 . the next time out brought home trophies but started at 5000lbs. Cam needed retarded and torque killed to pull 3500

Edited by mlpankey - 19 Jul 2012 at 5:49pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jul 2012 at 6:25pm
You'll have to think a little harder. (if you can)
 
You fail to understand the distance from center of the cam to center of the dowl pin has to be the same as the chevy, or the bushings will have a different offset than they were originally designed for.  The closer to the axis the bushing is placed, the more degrees it rotates the cam.
 
I know this is a foregin concept to pankey, but for machinests and gear heads alike, it's common knowledge.
 
go ask anyone in the machine shop and they will tell you the same thing.
 
Bushings are not needed, I know WI spun his engine in the 6000 RPM range for a long time and never slipped the bolts.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jul 2012 at 8:05pm
its real hard for you to understand that the three bolts place the gears timimng mark with the cams ground strait up timing. So when the dowl is drilled with the gear bolted on then the dowl is now locating the mark so the bolt holes can be elongated. Then the engineered degree of bushing used to the located engineere dowl moves the cam that many degrees. you drill the dowl inlign with the bolts  besides the cam flange is only so big in diameter and you need enough meat in cam flange for the dowl to hold gear from slipping once bolt holes are elongated.

Edited by mlpankey - 19 Jul 2012 at 8:06pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jul 2012 at 9:27pm
Rod is correct, meaning a 4 deg bushing is only worth 4 deg if it's installed at a specific distance from center. Put it closer and it's worth more, further out and it's worth less.

Don't install it at a random spot and assume that the cam moved what the bushing was advertised at. Double check.

It's simple geometry
"see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet"
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jul 2012 at 9:07am
Originally posted by wi50 wi50 wrote:

Rod is correct, meaning a 4 deg bushing is only worth 4 deg if it's installed at a specific distance from center. Put it closer and it's worth more, further out and it's worth less.

Don't install it at a random spot and assume that the cam moved what the bushing was advertised at. Double check.

It's simple geometry
We must have done ours perfect 116 centerline 8 degree chevy bushing checked with degree wheel move us 8 degrees for 108. ofcoarse we always strive perfection.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jul 2012 at 10:10am
Pankey, you are full of BS on this subject also.
 
A small block Chevy cam has the dowl positioned .785" from center.  The bushing is made to work to it's advertised offset when placed .785" from the centerline. 
 
You can't place the bushing that close in the Allis cam........ the nose of the camshaft and bore of the bolt on gear is to large to position the dowl that close to the cams centerline. 
 
Go out to your shop, measure some parts, come back and admit that you are wrong.  An 8 degree bushing does not equill 8 degrees when drilled randomly in the front of the Allis.  It will ALWAYSE equill something less than it's advertised amount.
 
Now if you want photograpic evidence of this, I will gladly post some pictures. 
 
Striving for perfection????? It's a matter of covering up your lies with more lies.  Or not haveing a clue what is going on in the first place.  With that inaccuracy, it's no wonder your engines blow up right away.  I only wonder how close the timeing is and if detonation killed it.
 
Please post a picture of your cam and bushing setup in the gear!!!!  And then a picture of your cam gear layed on a Chevy cam nose.  I'll show you exactly why you are wrong. 


Edited by Rod B - 20 Jul 2012 at 10:18am
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mlpankey View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jul 2012 at 3:09pm
The cam moved 8 degrees with a 8 degree button . Theres nothing wrong with you admitting you can't repeat what I did.  Einstien said everyones a genious but if you judge a fish on its ability to climb a tree it will spend its whole life thinking its stupid.  Its all about ones own abilities.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 2012 at 12:32pm
Hey pankey, at least nobody is arguing with you about the fact that your posts contain a lot of spewing.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 2012 at 4:32pm
Knowledge is power and some just install bushings and if it comes up short its just tgat and some rotate the bushing in the gear to try to get all of the bushing.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2012 at 12:19am
Because the bushing is installed further from center it has less effect than what it was originaly designed for. An 8 deg bushing will move the cam about 6 deg.

We can't change the laws of mathmatics or physics.

So pannkey is either lying, a poor machinist leaving to much clearance. Or probably just inaccurate measureing.

Numbers don't lie, but liars make numbers. If he pays attention here in class his next engine might run.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2012 at 7:35am
Originally posted by Rod B Rod B wrote:

Because the bushing is installed further from center it has less effect than what it was originaly designed for. An 8 deg bushing will move the cam about 6 deg.

We can't change the laws of mathmatics or physics.

So pannkey is either lying, a poor machinist leaving to much clearance. Or probably just inaccurate measureing.

Numbers don't lie, but liars make numbers. If he pays attention here in class his next engine might run.


Earlier I posted that Rod is correct. That is about right as far as an 8 degree chevy bushing moveing the cam timeing 6 degrees. Ir 4 degree bushing moveing it 3 degrees when installed on the allis. The math says it will, and that's been my experiences with useing the bushings because of where they have to be placed in the Allis. I don't use the bushings anymore. I just slot the gear and install the cam and adjust it off the wheel.

But for those of us who can accuratly measure and the ability to think things through we know this. Don't worry Rod, pankey will just keep alienating himself in any thread that has anything to do with engines...... or any thread I post any pictures in.

I know some of the finer details are beyond some of the readers, and simple to understand for others. It's to bad that one of them "spewes bs" on the topics not understood. It may lead others to make mistakes.   
"see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet"
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2012 at 2:07pm
Irony of you two telling me it cant be done. It was done if iit had came out at 1 less then i would have posted it. The oriantation in the gear to the dowl can be the difference not just in a allis gear but a chevy gear as well. Its why you should pay attention to the small stuff .ps wi now there is something you cant do so your statement we didnt know it couldnt be done must be a lie now.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2012 at 3:43pm
Now here's the real truth. If the orirntation of the bushing was off, the offset that it provides would be even LESS.

Think before posting.    
"see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet"
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2012 at 3:54pm
Does anyone in vols country have a 5th grader that could tutor pankey?


Blameing it on bushing orientation is a cry. Like wi said, it would only be less. In order to orient the bushing wrong, one would have to be really sloppy when machining the gear for the bushing in the first place. But pankey did say he drilled the hole. Ameturers use drills, drills don't leave round holes and are never true to center.

I balme pankey's mistakes on inaccurate measureing, inability to think things through, or just plain ignorance in the first place. So much for doing it right.

Edited by Rod B - 23 Jul 2012 at 7:38am
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