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426 Allis Engine

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Smokey Joe View Drop Down
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    Posted: 22 May 2011 at 12:10pm
Has anyone ever installed inline injection pump in place of rotary pump for farm use if so how were the power changes versus before the change.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote plowboy8550 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2011 at 2:09pm
Yes its been done before, but the main challange is getting the air to back up the fuel. The head will hold you back. Depending on what you want to accomplish the rotary pumps can be pretty stout, unless you want to go all out then get out the checkbook.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kcgrain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2011 at 7:10pm
The reliance works builds the 426 with the inline pump, A model works well
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Calvin Schmidt View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Calvin Schmidt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2011 at 7:29pm
This a factory installed Minimec (Simms) inline on a 3500 MKII engine. It was on a water pump but the book calls it an on highway engine. It has 87 hrs ans is going into my 220 with the addition of an intercooler.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eric[IL] Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2011 at 10:17pm
Calvin,  By highway engine, does that mean that it would have been installed into trucks?  What kind of hp would it of been rated for in a truck application?  What would be the highest rpm a truck could rev between gear shifts?  I wonder how the allis 3500MKII would compare to the older 94-98' 5.9 cummins 12v with a p7100 inline fuel pump?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kcgrain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 2011 at 8:16am
Have 3 freightliners with a 5.9 cummins have an IH with a dt 466 the 3500 from allis chalmers in field conditions could walk a DT 466  and DT makes the 5.9 look like a Briggs and Stratton so by comparison I would say the 426 would suck the 5.9 right through the intake.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonDittmar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 2011 at 9:00am
Not comparing apples to apples
AC engine=426CID
5.9 Cummins=360CID
No replacement for displacement
 
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Also 1965 Cub Loboy and 1958 JD 720 Diesel Pony Start
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Calvin Schmidt View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Calvin Schmidt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 2011 at 10:02am

The operating and maintenance manual  dated 8/72 that came with the engine is for a 3500 MK II on highway engine. There is no HP stated. Full load RPM is 2400 and injectors are .0148" same as the 7080. I have some literature that would make my best guess that this is a 224 HP engine. Adding the intercooler should help some. Should  work well in the 220 with the present setting.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote injpumpEd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 2011 at 10:06am
don't be fooled by a SIMMS pump. Although they are an inline pump, they hardly rank up there with an A pump Bosch, much less a P pump! There is a reason AC switched most of the SIMMS pumps back to Roosa-Masters.
210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike Kroupa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 2011 at 10:15am
Dittos about the simms inj. pump, plus the governor response was nothing like a rosa master, I'd look for a rosa pump and lines., Mike
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ac45 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 2011 at 10:19am
gotta change the oil seperatley in those simms pumps too, its not hooked into the engine supply

Edited by ac45 - 25 May 2011 at 12:42pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Smokey Joe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 2011 at 12:27pm
I wanted to hear how the AC and inline worked not bashing other brands, I'm an AC guy but a 5.9 & 8.3 Cummins has its place and that is to be re-coupled to an AC tractor cause it WILL OUTLIVE the 426 at the same power very well built and more horsepower available per cubic inches and not a fuel hog, has modern inline injection system that is very reliable and starts very easy in cold weather. I have a 7020 with a 215HP 5.9 and a 7080 in progress for a stock 275HP 8.3 P-Pump Engine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 2011 at 12:39pm
Here's something to think about.......ever since AC used the AmBach pump on their engines they #1. Started better cold...#2. exhaust smoke was reduced...#3. engine life was also reduced because of the constant hammering of the "beginning of injection" always advanced as compared to the RoosaMaster which the "beginning was variable". I've had waaay more head gasket failures on 8000 series than I ever did with 7000 series....close your eyes and listen to an 7030 and an 8030...listen to the constant hammering on the newer engine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Smokey Joe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 2011 at 1:04pm
I agree with that our 7030 & 7040 are both really smooth and our 8070 has had 3 injection pumps on it if it was not under load it sounded like it was fluttering, the torque and responsiveness from an ambac seems way lower than a roosa master but no comparison to an A or P pump. My only experience with inline on AC was a 13mm P-pump on my 426 puller just wondered about in field operations.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kcgrain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 2011 at 1:56pm

8.3 or 5.9 L cummins engines are good engines but they will not out perform or out live the 426. The AC engine was a very good strong built motor that did have some flaws, but the cummins engine has many flaws itself. In a Dodge pick up the 5.9 lives a long life in a heavy duty application they do not. I have the 3 freighliners because I bought a whole Fleet of freightliners 9 to be exact 2 fords 1 IH from a beer vender. The ford's and IH were bought with no problems, they were brought into the fleet to try, the 9 frieghliners all with 5.9 cummins have less than 123,000 on them and every one was a engine problem. The deal was I had to buy the fleet  as is to get a good price so thats how I ended up with them and thats how I am aware of the 5.9 short comings. Have friends with bussing contracts have fords IH and cummins engines, and once again the Ford, and IH are almost trouble free the 5.9 and 8.3 after 100,000 is problematic. Much of the 426 engine failures had nothing to do with AC, it had more to do with the people working on them and the rumour mill that churns out BS about them. Have been around the 426 since the 70's and have seen failures, but every failure I have seen was due to maintance issues and poor mechanics and have seen 0 due to AC design. By that I mean I have heard of failures but personally have not seen it, but I have seen and paid for many many 5.9 and 8.3 failures due to design and not poor maintance.Have 3 855 Cummins or N14 in semi trucks and large straight trucks, bullet proof is a good way to discribe them, but the 5.9 or 8.3 is a far cry from the 855, and if you think your buying the cummins legend in the  small block cummins engines you are going to be disappointed.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lonn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 2011 at 2:02pm
Originally posted by Kcgrain Kcgrain wrote:

8.3 or 5.9 L cummins engines are good engines but they will not out perform or out live the 426. The AC engine was a very good strong built motor that did have some flaws, but the cummins engine has many flaws itself. In a Dodge pick up the 5.9 lives a long life in a heavy duty application they do not. I have the 3 freighliners because I bought a whole Fleet of freightliners 9 to be exact 2 fords 1 IH from a beer vender. The ford's and IH were bought with no problems, they were brought into the fleet to try, the 9 frieghliners all with 5.9 cummins have less than 123,000 on them and every one was a engine problem. The deal was I had to buy the fleet  as is to get a good price so thats how I ended up with them and thats how I am aware of the 5.9 short comings. Have friends with bussing contracts have fords IH and cummins engines, and once again the Ford, and IH are almost trouble free the 5.9 and 8.3 after 100,000 is problematic. Much of the 426 engine failures had nothing to do with AC, it had more to do with the people working on them and the rumour mill that churns out BS about them. Have been around the 426 since the 70's and have seen failures, but every failure I have seen was due to maintance issues and poor mechanics and have seen 0 due to AC design. By that I mean I have heard of failures but personally have not seen it, but I have seen and paid for many many 5.9 and 8.3 failures due to design and not poor maintance.Have 3 855 Cummins or N14 in semi trucks and large straight trucks, bullet proof is a good way to discribe them, but the 5.9 or 8.3 is a far cry from the 855, and if you think your buying the cummins legend in the  small block cummins engines you are going to be disappointed.


Early Magnums CaseIH tractors had many problems with the Cummins I know. Broken pistons or rings, something on that line if I remember right. Never worked on one (worked parts counter only at that shop) but saw quite a few run through the shop for those problems. I just kept the shop stocked with overhaul kits.


Edited by Lonn - 25 May 2011 at 2:05pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Smokey Joe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 2011 at 3:35pm
Don't forget I'm not hating on 426's I have 7 on the farm we use and have had good service, I just despise rotary injection pumps. I have 2 neighbors 1 has 8070FWD with Cummins and Loves it also AC Man the other neighbor has 8030FWD and 8050 with 8.3 and can pull bigger implement at faster speeds with the BIG C. As Dr. Allis said about the head gasket trouble the 8000's had, this guy was having issues with head gaskets on a regular basis. If they would have put an ''A'' inline pump on them with a split flange exhaust manifold and a Schwitzer 3LM or comparible turbo the tractors would have been unstoppable. But thats the past and you know who has inline injection pumps "thats right Cummins" and they have passed my torture test and that's good enough for me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote plowboy8550 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 2011 at 5:43pm
Im an allis man through and through, but put a 8.3 conv in an allis it will use 1/2 the fuel and pull a gear faster!! Thats a big difference. We have 3 8000s with cummins and we havent had a problem with them so far, they will start no matter how cold it is.. We have 19 426 engines on the farm they have there place, im not putting them down but i guarantee if the 426 goes out in my 7080 its not getting an allis engine back in it.. Money is tight and you have to save where you can.. How can you afford to run a tractor with less power and using twice the fuel??
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kcgrain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 2011 at 8:55pm
Its your money and you should spend it as you see fit, I personally buy the Reliance engine with the 426 Apump and 3lm turbo, it starts its smooth its powerful its reaction to load is wd45 quick and best of all its still all Allis Chalmers. Personally and in my humble opinion I do not think the cummins is worth it, my expierence with them in trucks and tractors have not been that great, in a tractor they have no soul, unlike the 426. I have a bunch of 426 engines some reliance some not have had O problems, never ever blew a head gasket, actually never heard of it unless the engne was over heating, and were back to a maintance thing, I hate the Ambac fuel system never liked it never will, had no issues with the rosa master other  than cold blooded and they smoked some but the fuel usage wasnt bad by any means. Have rented a new MX 2 yrs in a row they burned as much fuel in a 12 hr day as the AC did so I seen no savings. Personally I dont like the bastardization of engine from another manufacture, would you put a chevy 350 in a BMW?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lonn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 2011 at 9:37pm
Originally posted by Kcgrain Kcgrain wrote:

Its your money and you should spend it as you see fit, I personally buy the Reliance engine with the 426 Apump and 3lm turbo, it starts its smooth its powerful its reaction to load is wd45 quick and best of all its still all Allis Chalmers. Personally and in my humble opinion I do not think the cummins is worth it, my expierence with them in trucks and tractors have not been that great, in a tractor they have no soul, unlike the 426. I have a bunch of 426 engines some reliance some not have had O problems, never ever blew a head gasket, actually never heard of it unless the engne was over heating, and were back to a maintance thing, I hate the Ambac fuel system never liked it never will, had no issues with the rosa master other  than cold blooded and they smoked some but the fuel usage wasnt bad by any means. Have rented a new MX 2 yrs in a row they burned as much fuel in a 12 hr day as the AC did so I seen no savings. Personally I dont like the bastardization of engine from another manufacture, would you put a chevy 350 in a BMW?
I agree with you
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kevin in WA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 2011 at 11:27pm
I have had an A series inline on my 8070 for about 4 years now, It gives the tractor a whole different feel, The governor on the Ambac is a dog, the inline governor is very precise, I have the HP set at about 185, and would not recommend any more than that if you want the engine to live. It is too bad Allis did not increase rod journal size back in 1973 when they came out with the 70 series tractors, it would have given these engines much better rod bearing life and a stronger crankshaft,  Dr Allis is right on about the head gasket problem on engines with the Ambac pump, factory static timing of 19 degrees is too early, I set them at no more than 18 degrees.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eric[IL] Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 2011 at 8:06am
Kcgrain - Could you share more detail about how your freightliners are setup with the 5.9L cummins [89-93s turbos, 94-98 12v, 24v, or newer common rails - manual ? speeds or automatic transmissions, and rear gears 4.10, 4.65, or 5.13s]?  How much weight are you transporting with these trucks?  Or, what kind of traffic application are these trucks being used in ['stop n go' or 'long hauls']?
I have been told that the 5.9L was offered as a medium truck application or an industrial application.  The industrial application block was beefier & its crank weighs 60lbs more.  The 8.3L has the same external 5.9L block dimensions, but has an increased bore fitted with piston sleeves instead of the non-sleeved 5.9L. 
I have been looking at older [97-98] Pete 330s equipped with an 8.3L cummins, 9spd road ranger, & 4.10 gears.  Maybe I should stop looking if the 8.3L is not durable enough?  I want a good medium duty truck to pull a trailer with GVWR(truck/trailer/load) of 30,000lbs.  I appreciate everyones input on this site.  I would love to find a truck to drop an AC 426 into.  But, as cool as that sounds, I don't see that happening.   
      
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kcgrain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 2011 at 8:48am
I would have to look at the engines to tell you exactly I do Know they are 12v 230hp P Pump turbo with world automatic transmisssions. They were beer wagons so they were a mix of stop and go and medium hauling they are FL 80 with 45,000 gvw spec if memeory serves. The feightliner part of the truck is fine. My opinion if your looking at a meduim duty truck the IH with a mechanical DT 530 or 466 is by far the best. You know IH was always the major player in that market, freightliner, pete KW they all wanted it and all offered a truck in the medium duty market, but the only one that had an engine was IH and  the small block cats are crap powerless engines the cummins is so so at best, the first models of mercedes werent the greatest, detroit was out since the fuel pincher, ford had a strong showing in its segment and engine combo, but IH was still the king.What ever you do DO NOT buy a chevy or GMC top kick style truck, they are an over grown pick up and an absoulute disaster to work on, you can buy them cheap because every one thats had em knows about them,again my opinion if your a chevy lover.Even a older M10 cummins is not an engine you want the newer M11 were better.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Amos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 2011 at 9:03pm
Originally posted by Eric[IL Eric[IL wrote:

]Kcgrain - Could you share more detail about how your freightliners are setup with the 5.9L cummins [89-93s turbos, 94-98 12v, 24v, or newer common rails - manual ? speeds or automatic transmissions, and rear gears 4.10, 4.65, or 5.13s]?  How much weight are you transporting with these trucks?  Or, what kind of traffic application are these trucks being used in ['stop n go' or 'long hauls']?
I have been told that the 5.9L was offered as a medium truck application or an industrial application.  The industrial application block was beefier & its crank weighs 60lbs more.  The 8.3L has the same external 5.9L block dimensions, but has an increased bore fitted with piston sleeves instead of the non-sleeved 5.9L. 
I have been looking at older [97-98] Pete 330s equipped with an 8.3L cummins, 9spd road ranger, & 4.10 gears.  Maybe I should stop looking if the 8.3L is not durable enough?  I want a good medium duty truck to pull a trailer with GVWR(truck/trailer/load) of 30,000lbs.  I appreciate everyones input on this site.  I would love to find a truck to drop an AC 426 into.  But, as cool as that sounds, I don't see that happening.   
      
 
Eric
I have a tractor with an 8.3 in it, not AC conversion, I have two trucks with it in them, both are tandem dump box.  I ran the ford 800 out to Manitoba to have Cancade build an aluminum box for it and it got me 13 mpg at 50 mph (8 speed with 3.70 gear and 22.5 rubber).  The other truck just runs around at harvest and planting and has a 9 speed and same gear and tire, never driven it anywhere far enough to check the mileage .  My only complaint about them is they idle running hydraulic drive augers unloading and I think they burn too much fuel idling, not as bad as the 855`s around here though.  I have a Dodge with the 5.9 in it from 1990, great set up with the 5 speed manual but I am not sure I would want it to work as hard as in the tandems.  There is a 8030 near me with the 5.9 newer series than my 5.9 in it, really looks strange with the gap behind the radiator and the side panels moved out to accomodate the air to air plumbing.
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