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Tcmtech 
Orange Level
Joined: 15 Apr 2015
Location: Minot ND
Points: 310
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 Topic: AC torque limiter adjustment. In tractor.
Posted: 30 Oct 2016 at 6:42pm |
Okay I got around to doing the experiment and it worked so here it is,
how to adjust that POS torque limiter clutch while it's in the tractor. 
Step one. Cut a ~5" deep x 8" wide hole in the bottom of the transmission case right under the flywheel.
Step Two. Take each 3/4" bolt and related top hat bushing off one by one and put a 1/16" - 3/32" flat washer under it between the top hat bushing rim and the clutch spring plate.
Step three. Use it like normal tractor again.
Now the thing is our old AC 7050 had sat for some time before we got it and more than likely the rear seal on the engine dried out just enough to seep now. Not much, maybe 1 - 2 tablespoons in a long day at best, but just enough to oil up that slip clutch and make it a real pain to use.
Now as for functionality it's just fine. I put it in high 5th got it revved up and dumped the clutch and it slipped for aobut 2 -3 seconds before pulling the engine down to a stall. When I got out there was just a whiff of oil smoke coming out the hole I cut so that says it clearly can still slip if needed.
Total fix time was less than 2 hours and all it needed was a 9" grinder, a 3/4" wrench, a large screwdriver and 6 fairly thin flat washers. 
Beat splitting the tractor by a long shot!  |
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DrAllis
Orange Level Access
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Points: 19477
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Posted: 30 Oct 2016 at 6:48pm |
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It would make me nervous to drive it, fearing the bell housing will one day break in two, right where those sharp corners are.
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Tcmtech
Orange Level
Joined: 15 Apr 2015
Location: Minot ND
Points: 310
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Posted: 30 Oct 2016 at 7:19pm |
If they made the castings that brittle and light the tractor would have already broke in half years ago.
It's only ~1/4" thick and I probably could have punched a hole in it with sledge hammer rather than bothered cutting it. The plate under the PTO is thicker and higher strength steel than this stuff was. 
Personally I think they could have easily put an inspection plate in there like other manufacturers tend to do for anything with a flywheel mounted clutch of any kind.
Maybe there is nothing to be adjusted in there but for piece of mind there can never be too many inspection plates on a tractor's driveline!
When I make a cover plate for it I may die grind it a bit. It's pretty soft metal and will clean up rather fast and easy.
Edited by Tcmtech - 30 Oct 2016 at 7:22pm
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DrAllis
Orange Level Access
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Points: 19477
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Posted: 30 Oct 2016 at 7:30pm |
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I did one many years ago thru the starter hole. Used a long crows foot wrench and just shortened the length of each stool, instead of adding a washer. Results were the same. I guess I had 2 to 3 hrs labor in it at the time. Split the tractor at a later date to replace the leaking seals.
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Tcmtech
Orange Level
Joined: 15 Apr 2015
Location: Minot ND
Points: 310
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Posted: 30 Oct 2016 at 7:46pm |
I recall you mentioning that in another thread awhile ago but I hate working on things in bad positions and in places I can drop stuff down into and not get to easily.
Also I had no idea how much actual adjusting range I had to play with either. From the bottom getting a good straight on view so I could estimate the clearances between the spring plate and the backing plate seemed like a more practical method. That and i couldn't drop important pieces in to some inaccessible place never be seen again either.
I thought about machining them down instead of adding the washers but if I ever do have to split the tractor and put a new clutch in I didn't want them to be too short for later.
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CrestonM
Orange Level
Joined: 08 Sep 2014
Location: Oklahoma
Points: 8357
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Posted: 30 Oct 2016 at 8:23pm |
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That's an interesting way to do it. I too think that metal is unusually thin. I'd think it'd be thicker, but with all the tests Allis put them through, I guess it's plenty strong.
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WD45Diesel57
Orange Level
Joined: 20 Jul 2010
Location: Varna, Ont. Can
Points: 646
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Posted: 30 Oct 2016 at 8:38pm |
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Wow I would never cut structural parts of any tractor no matter how thin it is, take the time split the tractor as the dr said fix the leaky seal. Basically you put a band aid on a problem that is gonna get worse. When I did the torque limiter on my 7020 I had the motor out in less than three hours. Just my two cents !
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1-B's, 2-C, 2-CA's,2-WF, 1-WC,1-G, 3-WD's, 2-WD45, 1-RC, 1-D17 Diesel, 1-D14, 2-D15,1-D17 row crop,1-D19 gas and All Crop 40,60,66,72,90 and 100
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Tcmtech
Orange Level
Joined: 15 Apr 2015
Location: Minot ND
Points: 310
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Posted: 30 Oct 2016 at 8:39pm |
It was the most logical method and way I could come up with!
The primary load bearing areas of the casting seem to be pretty decent in thickness so I have every reason to feel this area is nothing more than filler.
To be honest I have busted out far more brittle iron than this from other brands of tractors and machinery. Given the grinding spark characteristics and way it broke out (semi malleable) I would put it as mid grade cast. Not good cast steel but not JD's recycled soup cans and beach sand stuff from that era either!
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MACK
Orange Level
Joined: 17 Nov 2009
Points: 7664
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Posted: 30 Oct 2016 at 8:47pm |
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Don't put a loader on it. Saw a 7050 that had another inspection hole drilled in bottom break into through the drilled hole. It did have a loader on it. MACK
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Tcmtech
Orange Level
Joined: 15 Apr 2015
Location: Minot ND
Points: 310
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Posted: 30 Oct 2016 at 8:53pm |
 WD45Diesel57 wrote:
Wow I would never cut structural parts of any tractor no matter how thin it is, take the time split the tractor as the dr said fix the leaky seal. Basically you put a band aid on a problem that is gonna get worse. When I did the torque limiter on my 7020 I had the motor out in less than three hours. Just my two cents ! |
Normally I would agree but everything I know about stress analysis and the appearance of the castings says that this is not a structural area by any bit imagination. There is nothing of significance in any axis (front to back or side to side) that it ties together that doesn't have a substantially greater structural casting bordering the whole area.
The side towards the engine terminates at the thick steel engine adapter plate and has no relevant structural significance to its function or stress loads and the majority of tensile the stresses in this area are on the two bottom most bolts that tie the transmission casting to the frame rails which is a 90 degree plane of stress to this bottom area.
I'm comfortable with it. I've seen people blow far larger holes in machines that went on to live to tell about it.
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Tcmtech
Orange Level
Joined: 15 Apr 2015
Location: Minot ND
Points: 310
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Posted: 30 Oct 2016 at 8:56pm |
MACK wrote:
Don't put a loader on it. Saw a 7050 that had another inspection hole drilled in bottom break into through the drilled hole. It did have a loader on it. MACK |
It will never have a loader. It's too big and clunky for that kind of work. Hay baling and flail mowing is all it's ever going to do for us and that could be done with a tractor half its size.
Plus We have a 8030 already set up as a loader.
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Mrgoodwrench
Orange Level
Joined: 03 Apr 2011
Location: CHICORA PA
Points: 2080
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Posted: 30 Oct 2016 at 9:11pm |
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Seems to me the job could be done CORRECTLY in a weekend instead of weakening the structure in a 2 hour hack job. If the tractor was sitting a long time before this, whats the rush.
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There are 3 ways to do job GOOD, FAST, CHEAP. YOU MAY CHOOSE 2. If its FAST & CHEAP it won't be GOOD, if it's GOOD & CHEAP it won't be FAST, and if its GOOD & FAST it won't be CHEAP!!!!
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Tcmtech
Orange Level
Joined: 15 Apr 2015
Location: Minot ND
Points: 310
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Posted: 30 Oct 2016 at 9:56pm |
Mrgoodwrench wrote:
Seems to me the job could be done CORRECTLY in a weekend instead of weakening the structure in a 2 hour hack job. If the tractor was sitting a long time before this, whats the rush. |
So are you saying that AC made these 175+ HP 9+ tone tractors out of such incredibly low grade steel that is so poorly cast that their structural integrity is so highly questionable that if a 1/2 pound ~5" x 8" x 1/4" piece of metal is taken out of the floor of the transmission bellhousing cavity that the whole tractor will be structurally compromised? 
Just curious being all I ever hear on this site is how superiorly designed and built every product AC ever made is. I mean really which is it? Superior overbuilt designs made with superior materials and craftsmanship or not? It can't be both.
Being if this little insignificant hole will take down a tractor this size so easily I might as well just drive it to the scrap yard tomorrow and get my $45 a ton and be done with it. 
Also not everyone has the time and means to take a tractor this size apart just to tighten something up. I have the equipment to do it but I don't have the justification. especially if a alternative method can do the same job in a fraction of the time and effort.
Edited by Tcmtech - 30 Oct 2016 at 9:59pm
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CrestonM
Orange Level
Joined: 08 Sep 2014
Location: Oklahoma
Points: 8357
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Posted: 30 Oct 2016 at 10:01pm |
Tcmtech wrote:
Being if this little insignificant hole will take down a tractor this size so easily I might as well just drive it to the scrap yard tomorrow and get my $45 a ton and be done with it.
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Mrgoodwrench
Orange Level
Joined: 03 Apr 2011
Location: CHICORA PA
Points: 2080
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Posted: 30 Oct 2016 at 10:21pm |
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I thought you were supposed to be an engineer...it's not just the missing metal it's sharp corners that can crack ,heat generated when cutting,the thin spots made from the sloppy cuts that will guide a crack. It's a hack job with no good excuse.
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There are 3 ways to do job GOOD, FAST, CHEAP. YOU MAY CHOOSE 2. If its FAST & CHEAP it won't be GOOD, if it's GOOD & CHEAP it won't be FAST, and if its GOOD & FAST it won't be CHEAP!!!!
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Tcmtech
Orange Level
Joined: 15 Apr 2015
Location: Minot ND
Points: 310
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Posted: 30 Oct 2016 at 10:38pm |
Mrgoodwrench wrote:
I thought you were supposed to be an engineer...it's not just the missing metal it's sharp corners that can crack ,heat generated when cutting,the thin spots made from the sloppy cuts that will guide a crack. It's a hack job with no good excuse. |
So what you're saying is drive it slowly and carefully so as to not hit any bumps on the way to the scrap yard.
Nah. It'll be fine. I'll put some orange halloween duct tape over it tomorrow.
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CrestonM
Orange Level
Joined: 08 Sep 2014
Location: Oklahoma
Points: 8357
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Posted: 30 Oct 2016 at 10:40pm |
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If the hole was round would it be better than square?
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Mrgoodwrench
Orange Level
Joined: 03 Apr 2011
Location: CHICORA PA
Points: 2080
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Posted: 30 Oct 2016 at 10:50pm |
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In theory a round hole is less likely to crack out from but it's still a bad idea. To do it right you are talking removing the tins ,a few lines and cables then a dozen or so bolts. This tractor still needs split to fix a leaking seal that will cause a slipping torque limiter, so what was accomplished here other than damaging a transmission perminatly for a temporary "fix"?
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There are 3 ways to do job GOOD, FAST, CHEAP. YOU MAY CHOOSE 2. If its FAST & CHEAP it won't be GOOD, if it's GOOD & CHEAP it won't be FAST, and if its GOOD & FAST it won't be CHEAP!!!!
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Ky.Allis
Orange Level
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Location: Kentucky
Points: 962
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Posted: 31 Oct 2016 at 6:49am |
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And I thought I've done some REDNECK things in my lifetime but that is truly unique. Hopefully it won't backfire on you.
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Tbone95
Orange Level Access
Joined: 31 Aug 2012
Location: Michigan
Points: 11388
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Posted: 31 Oct 2016 at 7:13am |
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Oh you guys! Come on. He knows the metal. Analyzed all the stresses. Found a logical way to fix it. He's got it perfect. It will be fine. No other justified way to fix it.
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lowell66dart
Orange Level
Joined: 10 Jul 2013
Location: Paulina La.
Points: 964
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Posted: 31 Oct 2016 at 7:28am |
Thanks for taking the time to take pics and post.
Maybe drilling four holes in the corners and cutting between them would lessen the stress cracking fears that someone mentioned if anyone was thinking about trying this.
Happy Halloween!!!!!
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AC 6080 (8030,7060,200,175,D-17HC, 6040,160,6140 all gone) Farmall 1066 & 656 Hi-Clear (for sale), White 2-62 High Clearance, JD 4255 Hi Clear.
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Charlie175
Orange Level
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: Shenandoah, VA
Points: 6351
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Posted: 31 Oct 2016 at 7:46am |
Yes round holes are better for sure. Square holes promote stress fracture at the corners.
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Charlie
'48 B, '51 CA, '56 WD45 '61 D17, '63 D12, '65 D10 , '68 One-Ninety XTD
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Don(MO)
Orange Level
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Bates City MO.
Points: 6862
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Posted: 31 Oct 2016 at 9:15am |
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There is so much that can be said about this but I will say, guys Please don't do this to your tractor and latter on down the road then try to trade it in without telling the dealer about it.
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3 WD45's with power steering,G,D15 fork lift,D19, W-Speed Patrol, "A" Gleaner with a 330 corn head,"66" combine,roto-baler, and lots of Snap Coupler implements to make them work for their keep.
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Kevin in WA
Orange Level Access
Joined: 08 Feb 2010
Location: Lynden, WA
Points: 607
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Posted: 31 Oct 2016 at 10:00am |
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Took you 2 hours, I could have had it split in that time, and then fixed it right.
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Tcmtech
Orange Level
Joined: 15 Apr 2015
Location: Minot ND
Points: 310
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Posted: 31 Oct 2016 at 10:09am |
lowell66dart wrote:
Thanks for taking the time to take pics and post.
Maybe drilling four holes in the corners and cutting between them would lessen the stress cracking fears that someone mentioned if anyone was thinking about trying this.
Happy Halloween!!!!! |
Given I had no easy way of finding out how the castings were laid out inside the housing I had to do a bunch of exploratory 1/8" drill holes about 1/2 an inch apart to find the back edge of the thin bottom area I would be cutting out. You can see one in the rear center area of the casting.
I went from the weep hole back then up the sides about 4 inches in each direction then ground things out right across the lines of holes. I also had no idea how wide of hole I would need to make so that's why no large diameter corner holes were drilled. This was all poke and go exploratory cutting work.
Now that I know the basic dimensions and metal thicknesses of the area that can be cut out if I had to do it again I would either use a 1" bi metal hole saw bit and put the four corners in then cut between them and given as thin as everything turned out to be I would do the cuts with a small angle grinder and cut off wheel. Either that or use a 3" - 4" bimetal hole saw and cut a pair of holes side by side, and go in that way.
I know it wasn't a perfect let alone ideally done cut job. It was never intended to be but some post clean up with some more detail grinding and die grinder work won't take long to fix it.
Mostly the only reason I posted this fix is to show that if a person chooses to they can get into the torque limiter assy and tighten the thing up in less than 2 hours work with basic tools if they need to get a tractor going again opposed to sending it to a shop and waiting a week or more plus spending a few thousand having it done.
When it's Saturday evening and your tractor stops moving and you don't have the resources to easily split it yourself plus your nearest shop that can do it is either a very long tow (or implement truck hire and haul plus a week or two wait start to finish) away and you really don't have a few thousand dollars to throw at fixing an old tractor and you see that someone online shows it can be accessed and bolted tight in a hour or two's work with minimal tools which are you going to take to keep it running?
For me cut the damn belly open, stick 6 washers in it and be back in the field in less than 2 hours would be it! It's that or abandon the tractor/scrap it if I don't have the time and money to toss at fixing it.
Edited by Tcmtech - 31 Oct 2016 at 10:12am
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Kcgrain
Orange Level
Joined: 24 Sep 2009
Location: Wisconsin
Points: 767
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Posted: 31 Oct 2016 at 11:02am |
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You want to know why Allis Chalmers tractors have such a bad reputation for resale? Right here it is, lets not spend the time or money to fix it correctly, lets butcher the tractor making it a complete pile of crap, and than be shocked when the tractor gets sold and brings $1500. Why show the tractor any respect by taking care of it, keeping it clean maintained and functioning. Over half the problems I read on this site are some shade tree mechanic half assed repair failing, it always gets blamed on Allis Chalmers and the fact that they couldn't out design these people. As Ron White says "you cant fix Stupid"
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Tbone95
Orange Level Access
Joined: 31 Aug 2012
Location: Michigan
Points: 11388
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Posted: 31 Oct 2016 at 11:09am |
Kcgrain wrote:
You want to know why Allis Chalmers tractors have such a bad reputation for resale? Right here it is, lets not spend the time or money to fix it correctly, lets butcher the tractor making it a complete pile of crap, and than be shocked when the tractor gets sold and brings $1500. Why show the tractor any respect by taking care of it, keeping it clean maintained and functioning. Over half the problems I read on this site are some shade tree mechanic half assed repair failing, it always gets blamed on Allis Chalmers and the fact that they couldn't out design these people. As Ron White says "you cant fix Stupid" |
Hahaha!  KC, you're right. But in this case, you just don't realize how brilliant a mechanic, nay, engineer(!) you're dealing with here! 
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Tcmtech
Orange Level
Joined: 15 Apr 2015
Location: Minot ND
Points: 310
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Posted: 31 Oct 2016 at 11:20am |
Interesting being the main reason I keep hearing about why AC aren't worth crap is because they are poorly supported by their own parent company and expensive to operate and fix. So, yea, exactly as you said, guys have to chop them full of holes and cobble them together as best as they can to keep them running which leads to them not being worth much more thah scrap prices to the next guy.
That's why I did what I had to do to keep ours working. Dealer support is  (has been for a few decades now) and everyone who has to get anything done these days don't by AC machinery because of it. No dealer support.
So yea if my cutting an access hole in a single AC 7050 brought down a company that been floundering and failing for the last 30+years (because every other AC equipment owner has to resort to similar fixes to keep their machines working too) I rather suspect that it wasn't a company that was worth crap that made or supported anything better than crap and a half to begin with.
Edited by Tcmtech - 31 Oct 2016 at 11:22am
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TREVMAN
Orange Level
Joined: 04 Jan 2010
Location: Regina,Sask,Can
Points: 1635
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Posted: 31 Oct 2016 at 2:30pm |
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Put the piece back in, weld it, problem solved, jmho, Trev.
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albatros_3
Silver Level
Joined: 16 Apr 2012
Location: SE Michigan
Points: 449
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Posted: 31 Oct 2016 at 2:44pm |
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Welcome to the internet, where you can post what you did with pictures and everyone will chime in to tell you how you did it wrong/bad. If someone asks for help, I don't mind giving it. If someone posts how they did something and it doesn't agree with what I would have done, I don't say anything unless there is an imminent danger. Obviously what's done, is done, so really beyond recommendations to clean up/strengthen the spot, these comments are just unconstructive banter.
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AC torque limiter adjustment. In tractor.
