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CD-2 Lead Substitute

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Dave (NE) View Drop Down
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    Posted: 08 May 2010 at 9:04am
Anyone know where this can be purchased anymore?  Local farm stores and auto parts places don't seem to be carrying this product anymore and can't find it being sold on the internet.  Last time I was able to purchase it, the price had gone up considerably, so I suppose it could have been phased out.  I don't know if it makes much difference, but I've been using it in my old gas tractors for the past 20 years and wanted to continue doing so.  Thanks, Dave
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AllisFreak MN View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AllisFreak MN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2010 at 9:38am
I've been using the same stuff and when my last bottle ran out I couldn't find it anymore anywhere. That was the good stuff because it was concentrate so a bottle lasted a long time. The only kind I can find now is the stuff costs $4.00 a bottle and only treats 20 gallons.
'51 A-C WD, '63 A-C D17 Series III, '82 A-C 6060, A-C 904 mower conditioner, A-C 213 disk, A-C #3 sickle mower, A-C 701 wagon, '78 Gleaner M2
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Jeff Z. NY View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jeff  Z.  NY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2010 at 9:46am
I think many have stopped selling it because I think they have to label it for off road use only.
If you search Google you can still but it.
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Dave (NE) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dave (NE) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2010 at 10:36am
I've tried to google it, but not been able to find it available.  Do you know the site for it?
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Jeff Z. NY View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jeff  Z.  NY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2010 at 10:46am
Left you a private message.
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Gerald J. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gerald J. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2010 at 10:52am
Why? its probably not lead and you probably aren't plowing 400 acres a year to work your engines hard. A true lead substitute contributes more to plug fowling than it benefits an engine. You certainly don't need an octane booster which was tetraethyl lead's prime purpose with engines rated for 70 octane getting 87 or 89 from modern pump gas.

Gerald J.
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ALinIL View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ALinIL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2010 at 10:55am
I just checked.  you can still get at JEGS.  12oz, $9.00 will treat 120 gal. I assume others still handle. - AL
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Jeff Z. NY View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jeff  Z.  NY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2010 at 11:58am
A blind man could see that train comimg from a mile out.
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Dave (NE) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dave (NE) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2010 at 12:05pm
Jeff, thanks for the link to the site.  That's exactly what I was looking for at a reasonable price, however the cookie blocker on my internet hasn't allowed me to look at it further.  Have to take some time to figure out how to let me view how to order it and check whether it is in stock.
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wayneIA View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wayneIA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2010 at 12:27pm
I don't know if there are any Norby Farm stoers in your area, but I ours in town carries CD2, and another lead substitute too.
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Dave (NE) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dave (NE) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2010 at 7:03pm
Nope, no Norby Farm stores nearby.  Jeff, what do you mean about seeing that coming?
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DaveKamp View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2010 at 2:13am
Are you sure that the engine you're running requires lead?
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Dave (NE) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dave (NE) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2010 at 9:50am
I'm putting it in a 1957 WD45.  They were made prior to the unleaded gas days.  I'm not sure it helps or not, but at least when I started adding it over twenty years ago the CD-2 was relatively inexpensive.  A 32 oz. bottle would do 320 gallons so even if it was only providing a slight benefit it wasn't costing me too much.  If I'm not able to still get the more concentrated lead additive such as CD-2 at a reasonable price, I'll probably just stop adding it.  I know there's been a debate on the benefits of adding a lead substitute before and it seemed to be inconclusive as to whether it helped.  So, as long as it wasn't hurting anything and didn't cost too much I was going to continue to add it.  Thanks, Dave 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2010 at 2:10am
Not only was '57 PRIOR to unleaded gas days, it was POST unleaded gas.

Tetraethyl lead additives weren't added to motor fuels until the mid-late 1920's, and even then, it was only in certain brands, and in the highest 'grades'.  Large-scale use of TEL didn't occur until after WW2, and still, it was only in premium grades.

Tractor engines NEVER ran silly compression ratios like high-performance cars of the late '50's to late '60's... with long stroke, low CR, and low speed, sensible cam profiles and spring pressures, there was no point in buying 'premium' gasoline, nor was there a need for TEL to protect the engine... it was designed to work day in/day out under ugly conditions, generating smooth, constant power and excellent fuel economy.

I highly doubt that ANY Allis engines were ever built with the expectation of TEL.

By the way... the common competetive antiknock additive used in place of TEL...

10% Ethanol.
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Tricky Dickie View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tricky Dickie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2010 at 3:54am
Why on earth do you want to add this muck to your gasoline? Your tractor engine certainly does not need it, nor will it contribute anything towards the efficiency or longevity of your engine. Tractor engines were made with a low BMEP and could run on the lowest grades of fuel without a problem. Forget it and stop wasting your money!
 
Tricky Dickie


Edited by Tricky Dickie - 10 May 2010 at 3:55am
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DaveKamp View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2010 at 9:18pm
Hey- Hey used a genuine technical term-  Brake Mean Effective Pressure...

Way to go Dickie!!!
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Tricky Dickie View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tricky Dickie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2010 at 2:19am
Yep, that's the one!
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Denis in MI View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Denis in MI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2010 at 9:18am
The Idea of lead in fuel was to provide a cushion on the exhaust valve seat and prevent valve seat recession or burned valves, whether or not it really helps I don't know for sure but my dad has run it in his WD for years and I run it in my engines when I plan to work them hard. I have never had a problem while using it but I can't say I have had a problem while not using it either. It might be snake oil but I will keep using it unless the price gets totally out of hand.

Edited by Denis in MI - 11 May 2010 at 9:20am
1938 B, 1945 B, 1941 IB, 1949 C, 2 1938 WCs, 3 1950 WDs, 1951 WD, 2 1955 WD45, 1957 D-14
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Gerald J. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gerald J. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2010 at 10:50am
Its illegal to use lead in gasoline. There is no lead in CD2. Look at the MSDS at:http://www.turtlewax.com/res/msds/msds4298-1.pdf
Mostly Naptha (white gas) and color.

Gerald J. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CTuckerNWIL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2010 at 11:43am
I need to invent something like this. A product that cost very little, and does absolutely nothing(minimal chance of liability) That I can bottle and sell for a very good profit. I might be able to retire some day.
http://www.ae-ta.com
Lena 1935 WC12xxx,1938 B2xx, 1950 WD, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF
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DaveKamp View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2010 at 10:11pm
Denis - Commercial introduction of TetraEthyl Lead (TEL) into motor fuels occured initially around 1928 by Kettering Labs, and was marketed under the "Ethyl" name SPECIFICALLY to draw attention away from the inclusion of LEAD.

The sole purpose, was to allow ignition timing to be advanced substantially in low-grade fuels, to generate more power and lower combustion chamber temperatures with no preignition.

Valve seat "Cushioning" was a concept introduced by the TEL advocacy community- by convincing manufacturers that harden valve seat inserts weren't necessary, thus, increasing dependancy on TEL.  This was at the same time when hardened inserts were very expensive, and the need for war materials increased the cost-gap for building with such things.

TEL, as well as fuel formulations, advanced in use in combat aircraft fuels during WW2 in order to make high-performance engines (like the supercharged Merlin and Allisons) capable of higher combat-horsepower.

After the war, the acceptance of TEL became fairly common, although the scientific community was well aware that airborne TEL was a very serious problem, particularly in urban environments.

If you look at OLD engines... prior to the '30's, you'll see that they either had hardened valve seats, or such low CR, and low BMEP, that TEL simply was not necessary.  As Dickie noted, those engines were designed to run on very lousy (by today's standards) fuels...  4:1 compression ratios were standard, 5:1 was considered 'high'.

During the TEL boom, CAR manufacturers cut corners and allowed TEL and high-octane fuels to keep horsepower numbers high, even with low-quality components.  Agricultural and industrial manufacturers, however, did it right- they used good quality materials and prudent methods, knowing that field horsepower meant durability... and they were capable of, intended for, and regularly fueled by 'alternative' methods... because they had to be adaptable to what the industry (or the farmer) had most available.

Remember- high-test fuels tend to evaporate rapidly.  This is a BAD thing for agricultural fuels, as they'll be evaporating out of storage barrels and tanks.  For economy purposes, earlier tractors would start on gasoline, and run on 'tractor fuel', 'distillate', 'kerosene', 'light heating oils' or whatever names you'd like to apply.  They didn't evaporate... which means less fuel loss during a season.
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Tricky Dickie View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tricky Dickie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2010 at 3:51am
Absolutely right!
 
Tricky Dickie
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kurzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2010 at 7:56am
You got to watch these fuels today. If you got your collection in closed sheds like I do, you think someone was stealing fuel from you. They evaluate out. I try to buy fuel with no alcohol.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote klinemar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2010 at 8:24am
During WW2 Fighter aircraft were constantly undergoing test's for more horsepower thus more speed.The Germans developed Nitrus boost for their piston engined fighters,the U.S. developed War Emergency Power which was nothing more than Alcohol and Water mixed and injected into the intake manifold,both gave the engines a boost in horsepower but if prolonged would sieze the engine.Tetra Ethyl Lead was incresed in the fuel mix to obtain octane ratings above 100 but this also had an effect on the engines by accumulating in the intake manifold at high altiude and flaking off and causing predetonation in the cylinders and engine failure.The best cure for high altitude operation was the Jet engine.I have never used the Lead substitute in my gas powered tractors and have never had a valve or engine problem from lack of lead in the fuel,but I will not condemn someone who does,it is your choice.
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KY View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2010 at 3:31pm
I use the same Cd 2 lead substitute. The reason is that every cylinder head mechanic I have ever talked to said to use it in older motors to keep from wearing the valves as bad. wether it hreally helps or not I dont know.
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Dave (NE) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dave (NE) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2010 at 6:43pm
KY, where do you get the CD-2 at?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Smiling John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2010 at 10:06pm
Within the past few months, I purchased several bottles of CD2 at a Walmart Super Store.  I believe it was under $10 per bottle.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FredinInd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2010 at 10:47pm
I found CD2 at a discount store near me for $6.99 a 32oz bottle that said it treated 320 gals. of gas..... 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2010 at 2:44pm
I buy it at Rural King. Its like the wal mart of farm supply stores. Kinda like a Tractor Supply on steroids.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote weiner43 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2010 at 3:10pm
The first time I was in the Rural King in Owensboro, Kentucky I thought I had died and went to Heaven. I am used to the urban farm store TSC. Sure wished we had one up here in Northern Michigan.
God bless our troops and the United States of America.

Pick your rut well, you may be in it a long time.
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