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6080 comp ratio and inj

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tbran View Drop Down
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    Posted: 27 May 2015 at 9:25am
did some reading, OEM first 6080 had 14:1 cp.
Later at 33k 20833 the cr was increased to 15:1

Today many 6080s are running the 16.25:1 pistons evidently with no
ill effect - (the 4.33 - 2200 is basically a 4 cyl 301)
The service bulletin states the nozzles were changed to
a .30 or .31 mm hole tip from a .32 or .33 tip hole size.
Bulletin also stated the change in injection pump. Bulletin WA-580 dated 5-3-85.
These smaller hole tips evidently disappeared...in the part system,
74009274=.26
74009276=.30807
and inj assy's 74036652=.036 as in 8070

PS
At sn engine 33k 19245 the pump advance was changed to delay advance and decrease clear up time.
When told "it's not the money,it's the principle", remember, it's always the money..
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Eldon (WA) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eldon (WA) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2015 at 10:06am
I'm sure mine is 14.1 yet...it starts real hard even when it is 70 degrees out, little blowby, doesn't use oil and has plenty of power....
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Orange Blood View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Orange Blood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2015 at 10:34am
Originally posted by Eldon (WA) Eldon (WA) wrote:

I'm sure mine is 14.1 yet...it starts real hard even when it is 70 degrees out, little blowby, doesn't use oil and has plenty of power....

Probably needs bigger tires!LOL
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HD7 WC C CA WD 2-WD45 WD45LP WD45D D14 3-D17 D17LP 2-D19D D19LP 190XTD 190XTLP 720 D21 220 7020 7030 7040 7045 3-7060
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Big Orange View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Orange Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2015 at 5:22pm
ACs claims about comp. ratios are only numbers figured on combustion chamber size & cylinder bore & stroke, the actual compression of any engine has to do with when the intake valve closes on the compression stroke, the cylinder leakage at the rings & cranking rpms. Take can be check with A compression gauge. The 301 AC engine has when through A number of changes over the years. The early production engine started very well in cool weather, but as time went on the camshaft timing was changed to widen the torque range, that also increase the piston temp. so the piston to sleeve clears was increased, two ways by deceasing the piston size by .002 & increasing the sleeve id. by .002 , that open the piston ring endgap. Plus as the HP increased, the head of the piston, above the top ring was decreased, to prevent piston & sleeve scoring at that area. All of these changes, intern have changed the engines cranking compression to the point, they won't start very well at all in cool weather. I worked at A Allis chalmers dealer, as all of the changes went down, AC didn't tell the service people anything about most of the changes. 
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DrAllis View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2015 at 6:25pm
When the 200 tractor came out, they had machined .015" off the piston from the top ring to the top of the piston. That reduced the diameter .030" and lowered the compression ratio from 16 to 1 to 15 to 1 leaving the bowl volume the same. When the F-2/K-2 combine and 6060-6080 came out they were 14 to 1 and the bowl volume cc's increased, leaving the piston head diameter the same. I used to know how many cc's it was, but in my old age don't remember. Tear down a 180 or 185 sometime and then a 200 or newer and measure that piston head and see the .030" diameter difference.
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JPG AUSTRALIA View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JPG AUSTRALIA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2015 at 7:07pm
So what ae the aftermarket piston sleeve kits?(clevite for example) Are they made with the old style pistons or the 30 thou less
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Big Orange View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Orange Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2015 at 7:20pm
HA Dr. do you really think that .030 smaller piston head diameter = the CCs to lower the comp. ratio 1 point. I don't think so & you should know better. The cranking compression loss at that area is throw the gap opened up to the .025+ endgap of the top piston ring. Think about it.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Orange Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2015 at 7:46pm
Most aftermarket sleeves are the .002 oversize, late oem. spec. the ring endgap spec. is .025+. Hastings ring co. sales A ringset that will close the endgap to less than .020. Some aftermarket co. sale kits for 180 engines, they are not cut at the top above the top ring area.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Orange Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2015 at 7:57pm
The best kits were the M&W Headland ring kits, later sold as power seal kits, but they are no-longer available.  
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DrAllis View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2015 at 8:10pm
Mr. Big "O" your ignorance is still with us !! A-C actually made, produced and sold THREE different compression ratios for the 2000 series engines.......16 to 1, 15 to 1 and 14 to 1. You running your mouth doesn't change that one bit. Cranking compression pressures are affected by camshaft grind and timing and ring gaps, yes, but none of those have anything to do with calculated compression ratios. Some of us know when an engine is already at 16 to 1 it doesn't take very much to lower it one full point, but anyway carry on doofus.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Orange Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2015 at 9:05pm
OK DR. I don't know anything about anything, even though I have built engines for about 55 years. Thank you for pointing that out.
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tbran View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tbran Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2015 at 10:29pm
I have a 'blueprint' on the cam of the first 180 soft gear cam and the last 8010 published thanks to Mr. Prible out at the AZ proving grounds. They are exact. The same goes the first 3400 then 3500 and 670I,
Turbo or not all the same. Timing, gears, soft hard all match up only difference is the machining tolerances and oil pump gears on some. The first cams had different drive and retainers. As told by an engineer at Harvey the d262 cam was changed for the D19 and was a mistake - they never changed a cam design from then on on any AC engine. Quite a shame as the cam is the heart of any engine - look at the grinds for the 350 chevy....
When told "it's not the money,it's the principle", remember, it's always the money..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Orange Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2015 at 11:35pm
tbran  Do you have the prints of the early 190xt cam, as that cam was made before the 180s.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tbran Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 2015 at 3:01pm
in a court of law I would be thrown out - I can't find the old prints.
In boxes upstairs somewhere with 7000 tranny stuff - I hope.
Will look more later.
However in notes
the cam on the 301 - lift at cam ex .246 intake .277 intake opens 20 deg BTDC and closes 48 deg ABDC 248 duration ex opens 56 deg BBDC and closes 16 deg ATDC 252 deg duration.
gas cams lift .250 on both in and exh

the 426 3400/3500 cam has a lift of exh .285 and in .318 with the same open and close deg of crank rotation/as the 301. These are from the earliest info and latest I can find.
When told "it's not the money,it's the principle", remember, it's always the money..
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DrAllis View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 2015 at 3:04pm
The D-262 -T was the only one I knew they had made a change to grind/timing. To me 301's have always been the same, as 426's.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Orange Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2015 at 9:33pm
We at the dealership I worked for, sold one of the very first XTs. I remember, because I got to demonstrate it to the farmer. I was impressed, with the power, anyway that was the first one that we sold. It started good in cold weather,It ran in the lower green of temp. gauge on hot summer days, pulling A 6 bottom plow.As time went on more XTs were sold. Something had changed about the engines, most ran hot sometimes. I was the head mechanic in the shop, so I called the AC service rep. about the problem, as I saw it, he told me the hp was to high, turn them down a little. At that time the dealer didn't have A dyno. ,so we got one. The hp was A little high on some of them, but turning them down didn't help them or me, because the farmer came down on me, because the power went down, so turned hp backup. The newest XTs that were sold didn't start very in cool weather. Meanwhile that first old XT came to shop for repair, the rear end was broke bad, the co. had update kit for the rear end, so I check the hp on it when I got rear end fixed. Wow to my amazement, it had 120 hp.So I called farmer and told him it was ready to go, in more  than one way as I told him the hp. He said leave it there at 120 hp & don't tell the boss or the co. As I new him will, I asked him if I could check A few things on the engine, he said yes if I can be there when it's done, ok I said if you bring the beer, & be welling to help. That evening after work we checked the pump  timing it was right, we pulled the injectors, checked the pop pressure & the tip #, they checked out ok to, we removed the valve cover, checked the clearances, they were  all close , to spec., so we checked the valve timing & lift on the intake side, it checked like the book showed, so we went to to ex. side, the lift was right but the timing didn't come up right, it was late or slow about 3 or 4 degrees,by our check. So that had to be the reason it ran so good & cool, at 120 hp. I tried to pass this info. back the service department, but they didn't want to listen as they more problems to deal with,like piston scoring, which I think had to do with the valve timing change in the later XTs. It got worse as time went on. So I left the the dealer to do my own thing, like building raceings engines & tractor pulling engines.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Orange Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2015 at 2:46pm
At that time I didn't realize that A cam can have the same timing, but A different lobe profile or speed the valves opened & closed. That changes performance of an engine altogether. The intake lobe center timing is very important, that's the degree the intake valve is open to max. Also the intake & exhaust lobes being moved closer or feather apart, called lobe separation, really changes the torque & HP. at A given rpm. All of this & A lot more can & does, change combustion heat, piston heat, exhaust heat,smoke & efficiency, plus engine life.         
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