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6080 comp ratio and inj |
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tbran
Orange Level Joined: 14 Sep 2009 Location: Paris Tn Points: 3241 |
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Posted: 27 May 2015 at 9:25am |
did some reading, OEM first 6080 had 14:1 cp.
Later at 33k 20833 the cr was increased to 15:1 Today many 6080s are running the 16.25:1 pistons evidently with no ill effect - (the 4.33 - 2200 is basically a 4 cyl 301) The service bulletin states the nozzles were changed to a .30 or .31 mm hole tip from a .32 or .33 tip hole size. Bulletin also stated the change in injection pump. Bulletin WA-580 dated 5-3-85. These smaller hole tips evidently disappeared...in the part system, 74009274=.26 74009276=.30807 and inj assy's 74036652=.036 as in 8070 PS At sn engine 33k 19245 the pump advance was changed to delay advance and decrease clear up time. |
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Eldon (WA)
Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Spokane, WA Points: 7765 |
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I'm sure mine is 14.1 yet...it starts real hard even when it is 70 degrees out, little blowby, doesn't use oil and has plenty of power....
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Orange Blood
Orange Level Joined: 29 Nov 2010 Location: ColoradoSprings Points: 4053 |
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Probably needs bigger tires!
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Still in use:
HD7 WC C CA WD 2-WD45 WD45LP WD45D D14 3-D17 D17LP 2-D19D D19LP 190XTD 190XTLP 720 D21 220 7020 7030 7040 7045 3-7060 Projects: 3-U UC 2-G 2-B 2-C CA 7-WC RC WDLP WF D14 D21 210 7045 N7 |
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Big Orange
Silver Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Points: 313 |
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ACs claims about comp. ratios are only numbers figured on combustion chamber size & cylinder bore & stroke, the actual compression of any engine has to do with when the intake valve closes on the compression stroke, the cylinder leakage at the rings & cranking rpms. Take can be check with A compression gauge. The 301 AC engine has when through A number of changes over the years. The early production engine started very well in cool weather, but as time went on the camshaft timing was changed to widen the torque range, that also increase the piston temp. so the piston to sleeve clears was increased, two ways by deceasing the piston size by .002 & increasing the sleeve id. by .002 , that open the piston ring endgap. Plus as the HP increased, the head of the piston, above the top ring was decreased, to prevent piston & sleeve scoring at that area. All of these changes, intern have changed the engines cranking compression to the point, they won't start very well at all in cool weather. I worked at A Allis chalmers dealer, as all of the changes went down, AC didn't tell the service people anything about most of the changes.
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DrAllis
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 19538 |
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When the 200 tractor came out, they had machined .015" off the piston from the top ring to the top of the piston. That reduced the diameter .030" and lowered the compression ratio from 16 to 1 to 15 to 1 leaving the bowl volume the same. When the F-2/K-2 combine and 6060-6080 came out they were 14 to 1 and the bowl volume cc's increased, leaving the piston head diameter the same. I used to know how many cc's it was, but in my old age don't remember. Tear down a 180 or 185 sometime and then a 200 or newer and measure that piston head and see the .030" diameter difference.
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JPG AUSTRALIA
Orange Level Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Points: 733 |
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So what ae the aftermarket piston sleeve kits?(clevite for example) Are they made with the old style pistons or the 30 thou less
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Big Orange
Silver Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Points: 313 |
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HA Dr. do you really think that .030 smaller piston head diameter = the CCs to lower the comp. ratio 1 point. I don't think so & you should know better. The cranking compression loss at that area is throw the gap opened up to the .025+ endgap of the top piston ring. Think about it.
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Big Orange
Silver Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Points: 313 |
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Most aftermarket sleeves are the .002 oversize, late oem. spec. the ring endgap spec. is .025+. Hastings ring co. sales A ringset that will close the endgap to less than .020. Some aftermarket co. sale kits for 180 engines, they are not cut at the top above the top ring area.
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Big Orange
Silver Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Points: 313 |
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The best kits were the M&W Headland ring kits, later sold as power seal kits, but they are no-longer available.
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DrAllis
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 19538 |
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Mr. Big "O" your ignorance is still with us !! A-C actually made, produced and sold THREE different compression ratios for the 2000 series engines.......16 to 1, 15 to 1 and 14 to 1. You running your mouth doesn't change that one bit. Cranking compression pressures are affected by camshaft grind and timing and ring gaps, yes, but none of those have anything to do with calculated compression ratios. Some of us know when an engine is already at 16 to 1 it doesn't take very much to lower it one full point, but anyway carry on doofus.
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Big Orange
Silver Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Points: 313 |
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OK DR. I don't know anything about anything, even though I have built engines for about 55 years. Thank you for pointing that out.
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tbran
Orange Level Joined: 14 Sep 2009 Location: Paris Tn Points: 3241 |
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I have a 'blueprint' on the cam of the first 180 soft gear cam and the last 8010 published thanks to Mr. Prible out at the AZ proving grounds. They are exact. The same goes the first 3400 then 3500 and 670I,
Turbo or not all the same. Timing, gears, soft hard all match up only difference is the machining tolerances and oil pump gears on some. The first cams had different drive and retainers. As told by an engineer at Harvey the d262 cam was changed for the D19 and was a mistake - they never changed a cam design from then on on any AC engine. Quite a shame as the cam is the heart of any engine - look at the grinds for the 350 chevy.... |
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When told "it's not the money,it's the principle", remember, it's always the money..
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Big Orange
Silver Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Points: 313 |
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tbran Do you have the prints of the early 190xt cam, as that cam was made before the 180s.
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tbran
Orange Level Joined: 14 Sep 2009 Location: Paris Tn Points: 3241 |
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in a court of law I would be thrown out - I can't find the old prints.
In boxes upstairs somewhere with 7000 tranny stuff - I hope. Will look more later. However in notes the cam on the 301 - lift at cam ex .246 intake .277 intake opens 20 deg BTDC and closes 48 deg ABDC 248 duration ex opens 56 deg BBDC and closes 16 deg ATDC 252 deg duration. gas cams lift .250 on both in and exh the 426 3400/3500 cam has a lift of exh .285 and in .318 with the same open and close deg of crank rotation/as the 301. These are from the earliest info and latest I can find. |
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When told "it's not the money,it's the principle", remember, it's always the money..
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DrAllis
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 19538 |
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The D-262 -T was the only one I knew they had made a change to grind/timing. To me 301's have always been the same, as 426's.
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Big Orange
Silver Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Points: 313 |
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We at the dealership I worked for, sold one of the very first XTs. I remember, because I got to demonstrate it to the farmer. I was impressed, with the power, anyway that was the first one that we sold. It started good in cold weather,It ran in the lower green of temp. gauge on hot summer days, pulling A 6 bottom plow.As time went on more XTs were sold. Something had changed about the engines, most ran hot sometimes. I was the head mechanic in the shop, so I called the AC service rep. about the problem, as I saw it, he told me the hp was to high, turn them down a little. At that time the dealer didn't have A dyno. ,so we got one. The hp was A little high on some of them, but turning them down didn't help them or me, because the farmer came down on me, because the power went down, so turned hp backup. The newest XTs that were sold didn't start very in cool weather. Meanwhile that first old XT came to shop for repair, the rear end was broke bad, the co. had update kit for the rear end, so I check the hp on it when I got rear end fixed. Wow to my amazement, it had 120 hp.So I called farmer and told him it was ready to go, in more than one way as I told him the hp. He said leave it there at 120 hp & don't tell the boss or the co. As I new him will, I asked him if I could check A few things on the engine, he said yes if I can be there when it's done, ok I said if you bring the beer, & be welling to help. That evening after work we checked the pump timing it was right, we pulled the injectors, checked the pop pressure & the tip #, they checked out ok to, we removed the valve cover, checked the clearances, they were all close , to spec., so we checked the valve timing & lift on the intake side, it checked like the book showed, so we went to to ex. side, the lift was right but the timing didn't come up right, it was late or slow about 3 or 4 degrees,by our check. So that had to be the reason it ran so good & cool, at 120 hp. I tried to pass this info. back the service department, but they didn't want to listen as they more problems to deal with,like piston scoring, which I think had to do with the valve timing change in the later XTs. It got worse as time went on. So I left the the dealer to do my own thing, like building raceings engines & tractor pulling engines.
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Big Orange
Silver Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Points: 313 |
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At that time I didn't realize that A cam can have the same timing, but A different lobe profile or speed the valves opened & closed. That changes performance of an engine altogether. The intake lobe center timing is very important, that's the degree the intake valve is open to max. Also the intake & exhaust lobes being moved closer or feather apart, called lobe separation, really changes the torque & HP. at A given rpm. All of this & A lot more can & does, change combustion heat, piston heat, exhaust heat,smoke & efficiency, plus engine life.
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