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orangeman 
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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 Topic: Chalmers HD4 with rear attached logging arch and
Posted: 03 Jan 2024 at 6:53pm |
Winch. Anyone on here have one - using one? Am assuming the winch internals is set up with a clutch pack to brake the winch.
Am looking at one to equip on a 655 so can drag out some red and white pine logs.
Haven't seen many of these AC with an attached logging arch. Thanks in advance for any insights.
~ Orangeman
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Eric B
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Joined: 09 Feb 2012
Location: British Columbi
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Posted: 04 Jan 2024 at 6:14pm |
Hello Orangeman... unless you're very interested in having everything original, have you considered getting a powerful electric winch? You can always build your own arch too. Original equipment winches can be quite a challenge to get to work like new again if they have water rust etc making things a pain. I've only done it once on a Caterpillar but would prefer to make that be enough. Being that you have a 655 loader you could mount an electric winch on top of the bucket to get around having to have a logging arch. It would involve backing up more to get your decking spot. I don't mean to spoil your wishes for a 'real' winch  Eric.
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Currently- WD,WC,3WF's,2 D14's B. Previously- I 600,TL745,200,FL9,FR12,H3,816 LBH. Earth has no sorrow that Heaven cannot heal!
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orangeman
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Posted: 05 Jan 2024 at 7:35am |
Hello Eric: I had not thought of the electric winch approach. I was trying to keep to the original AC equipment. In searching through this I did learn that AC had multiple winch suppliers for equipping a winch on the small H3 ,HD 4 and 650 series machines. Their suppliers were Holt, Carco and Gearmatic so there is an assortment.
I do have access to an AC mechanic who cut his teeth on winch repairs on the Industrial side and can guide me along on the finer points of their repair. At 650 ponds per unit they are pretty soggy so at least initially I'll have to get the 715 out to be the lifting helper should the winch need to come off for repair work. Appreciate you taking the time to suggest the electric approach - have seen that done before and frankly forgot about that.
Respectfully ~ Orangeman
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Coke-in-MN
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Afton MN
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Posted: 05 Jan 2024 at 1:18pm |
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Seems rather than electric - Hydraulic power to winch would work better . Would give full control to speed by varying flow rate . Rear driven winch from tractor PTO would be through torque converter , also the fact with unit in neutral if there would be power to mechanical tractor driven winch .
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Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."
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Les Kerf
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Location: Idaho
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Posted: 05 Jan 2024 at 8:03pm |
I have skidded logs with winch equipped D4 Cats, TD-9, 440 John Deere wheel skidders and a couple of home-made skidders.
Even a 12,000 lb electric winch is a joke in comparison, but if you are just doing hobby stuff you could get by
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orangeman
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Posted: 06 Jan 2024 at 8:00am |
Morning Coke and Les: Thanks for the extra guidance. Am leaning towards and OEM AC approved winch like the Holt, Carco or the Gearmatic as they can be found used here. I know that State DEC had H3 and a few HD4's here that had logging winches and arches on them to maintain haul roads back to fire towers.
Back in the mid 70's the State sold those AC's off as Fiat had entered the picture and the State managers making the decisions on crawler loader dozer type purchases moved away from AC. Sad, is that the maintenance guys that worked with these units really liked them. Once Fiat was in the picture the State switched over to others brand machines.
~ Orangeman
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Codger
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Posted: 06 Jan 2024 at 8:36am |
I've ran a lot of winching operations, (never logging) but favor hydraulic drive. From my limited experience in your prospective application, a simple tandem center operational system would work well. Myself, I'd incorporate an electric solenoid valve which could be controlled via toggle in the operator station, or via lanyard outside of the tractor if wired for parallel operation. I work by myself many times and this option is very viable.
Definitely understand the desire for originality however. A combination of what works, and aesthetics are always in strong contention for me. I have a 30K Braden mechanical winch for the rear of my 11B that will be hydraulic driven as example. It is old but works well and will be used in the application of skidding trees I'll need this next summer clearing/cleaning up family property a bit to make it more usable.
Another side benefit to hydraulic drive is the tendency to "break something" isn't as strong such as a drive gear, or clutch array. A hydraulic pump would be easily driven from the PTO shaft and a properly sized pump for the winch drive would be perfect once relief pressures were set to operational parameters.
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A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
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Coke-in-MN
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Posted: 07 Jan 2024 at 12:44am |
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Hydraulic driven by engine front drive pump to the winch , would give you a fwd/rev by just changing port flow to drive motor on winch . Advantage is it would allow machine to still be controlled by fwd/rev lever for clutch pack .
Unsure how much FIAT had to do with the H3, H4 line of industrial machines as they were a joint venture in construction machines , pipe layers and such .
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Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."
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orangeman
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Posted: 07 Jan 2024 at 5:54am |
Morning Codger and Coke: From the AC archives on the H3 and HD4 Fiat had no involvement in there design work as Fiat, (Agnelli) did not enter the picture until late 74. From what I see in the field and from Norm's Construction book it looks to be that the 650 series machines soldiered on in production until sometime in 75 when Fiat Allis elected to drop them and produce the FL/FD-5 machines. With more weight and more HP the FL/FD5 were quite a bit more expensive than the 650 series machines.
Regarding the winches for the H3 and HD4's and 650 series most of them appeared to be add on's and were provided by approved aftermarket vendors. I have even seen literature and in the field a rear winch equipped on an H-3 that had AC stamped in the side housing. Not sure if AC actually produced those winches, but they did have a hydraulic brake and lever set up very similar to the brake master cylinder that was used in the old Chevy Apache pick up truck and the early C/K pickup trucks.
Codger I do like the toggle - electric solenoid valve idea with lanyard as that would allow one to step away from the (pull area) while the winch is involved in cinching up the log to the position that it will be pulled from. At this point - still knee deep in sorting details and hope to be able to select a unit in the next month or so.
Appreciative of all the good insights!
Respectfully, ~ Orangeman
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Codger
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Posted: 07 Jan 2024 at 8:16am |
If you come up with a winch and get the model numbers, I can design a system that will work for you easy enough. It all starts with input torque needed and line speed of the winch in the application. All other hardware basis starts with these parameters as preliminary.
Do you have a PTO shaft protruding from the rear of the tractor? Never really been around crawlers this small in the AC line so really vague starting out. What is system operating, and relief pressures available with existing hydraulic power? Any idea to flow ratings?
Myself, I think you would benefit from an additional pump to drive the implement dedicated to the purpose.
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A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
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Les Kerf
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Location: Idaho
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Posted: 07 Jan 2024 at 11:18am |
 orangeman wrote:
.... Am leaning towards and OEM AC approved winch like the Holt, Carco or the Gearmatic as they can be found used here... |
This. A winch that can simply be bolted on has a lot going for it.
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